richhotrainWhen using a DPDT throw Tortoise powered points, you want to use a DPDT On-On toggle switch.
Returning to model railroading after 40 years and taking unconscionable liberties with the SP&S, Northern Pacific and Great Northern roads in the '40s and '50s.
crossthedog One question is about Kevin's comments, but anyone feel free to jump in... it sounds like you're saying that the throttle on a power pack can actually be used to modify the voltage output... (I mean, now it occurs to me that that's what we're doing when we run our trains and use the throttle, eh?). If so, that's good news. I have an old MRC Trainpack gold box that outputs 14 volts. I could use that separately and throttle it up only 3/4 to power my Torti, sounds like?
One question is about Kevin's comments, but anyone feel free to jump in... it sounds like you're saying that the throttle on a power pack can actually be used to modify the voltage output... (I mean, now it occurs to me that that's what we're doing when we run our trains and use the throttle, eh?). If so, that's good news. I have an old MRC Trainpack gold box that outputs 14 volts. I could use that separately and throttle it up only 3/4 to power my Torti, sounds like?
The Output on each MRC 170 Railpower is 15V DC, 19V AC, and the Total Output is 18 VA. I leave the dial turned about one halfway up. The Tortoises do not overheat, and the power pack has no problem throwing the points.
Rich
Alton Junction
LastspikemikeIt doesn't matter which way the power flows through the DPDT.
True, but I didn't want to confuse the situation with more options.
LastspikemikeOne reason I prefer the double acting solenoid turnout control motors is you do use a common supply wire and only two home run control wires. You only need a SPDT switch, with center off. There are disadvantages to solenoids but wiring isn't one of them.
With a bipolar power supply (easily created with two separate DC power supplies), you can control a tortoise with one common, a SPDT switch, and one home run control wire. You can also do it with an AC power supply and a couple of diodes.
even AC can be used. see Instructions
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
gregceven AC can be used. see Instructions
I now see that the drawing Rich gave me earlier was exactly what the instruction sheet shows in the first diagram, but I wasn't seeing the wiring correctly in the instructions so it confused me. I was expecting to see lines that made an X shape from corner to corner because I had seen that in a photo somewhere. This is the same but I just didn't recognize it.
crossthedog I now see that the drawing Rich gave me earlier was exactly what the instruction sheet shows in the first diagram, but I wasn't seeing the wiring correctly in the instructions so it confused me. I was expecting to see lines that made an X shape from corner to corner because I had seen that in a photo somewhere. This is the same but I just didn't recognize it.
crossthedog I wasn't seeing the wiring correctly in the instructions so it confused me. I was expecting to see lines that made an X shape from corner to corner because I had seen that in a photo somewhere.
You can buy DPDT jumper equipped reversing switches that only have four connections, and these make wiring up your tortoises a lot easier.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Hi Matt,
Something that hasn't been mentioned is that you can use your Tortoise power (after the DPDT switch) to drive LEDs for control panels etc. You simply put the red/green LEDs in series (in line) with the power leads running to the #1 or #8 contacts on the Tortoise. There are no resistors required, and you can run more than one set of LEDs for each Tortoise.
The LEDs do cause a drop in power so they will cause the Tortoises to run a bit slower. In your case with a 7.5 volt power supply, using one bi-colour LED or two separate LEDs would cause the voltage to the motor to be dropped to about 5.5 volts. The Tortoise would be quite slow. If you want to use two bi-colour LEDs you would be advised to go up to a 12 volt power supply. The Tortoise would be getting about 8 volts.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
SeeYou190You can buy DPDT jumper equipped reversing switches that only have four connections
@Dave, it would be pretty cool if I could add LEDs somewhere to indicate which position the turnout is in, but I'm going slow. I may do that some other time. Right now, I wire the DPDT so that the "up" position of the toggle means the straight path and the "down" position means the divergent.
crossthedogDave, it would be pretty cool if I could add LEDs somewhere to indicate which position the turnout is in, but I'm going slow. I may do that some other time. Right now, I wire the DPDT so that the "up" position of the toggle means the straight path and the "down" position means the divergent.
That system will work great for you because you only have one switch per turnout. In my case I will have matching control panels on both sides of my walk around layout so there will be two toggle switches per turnout. The position of the toggle may or may not match the position of the turnout.
If you are interested in how to wire two DPDT switches to one Tortoise, let me know and I will post a schematic. It's not difficult, but it does take a lot of wire.
crossthedogKevin, this is actually what I thought I had to have and I drove all around North Seattle to various hardware stores and big box stores looking for it. I didn't find any and eventually I just wired the regular 6-post kind after I figured out what was going on there. But thanks. I'll have more Torti to wire eventually and if I find these I'll use them.
Advanced Auto Parts sells them, for about $20.00 each!
If you look around, you can obtain good quality reversing switches for about $5.00 each, but they will be special order items.
This one made by Carling and available from Grainger, catalogue number 10C577, looks llike it would fill the need.
I have circled in red the three items you need to look for when shopping for a reversing toggle to control a Tortoise switch machine.
The most important is that it must be ON/ON, and no other configuration. Most reversing toggles will be momentary, and/or have a center off position. Both of these features are undesirable when controlling a Tortoise.
I used Carling switches like these on my last two SGRR layouts to control the switch machines, and I was very happy with them.
Let me know if I can offer any more help.
hon30critterIf you are interested in how to wire two DPDT switches to one Tortoise, let me know and I will post a schematic. It's not difficult, but it does take a lot of wire.
...however, as you can see, my yard is pretty short. It's all the space I could afford, and I need every inch of track for building trains, so I cannot promise the yardmaster that I won't be leaving trains spanning a turnout for lengthy periods of time (I can hear the sternly-worded letters being written now; yes, I'm aware that this must be the acme of effrontery to prototype operations), in which case it may be imprudent to make the partner turnout on Track 2 ALWAYS throw straight when I want to make the turnout in Track 3 throw. [I'm just staring at my layout now and realizing there may never be a scenario where you would want to throw 3 without throwing 2 as well... give me a minute...]
On further consideration, Dave, sure, I'll PM you and would love it if you sent the schematic.
SeeYou190Let me know if I can offer any more help.
EDIT: Apparently writing A and B in brackets gets you a smiley face and a mug of beer substituted. I've fixed them so they're now letters again.
No need for a PM. May as well share it with everybody.
Here is the wiring diagram showing how to wire a Tortoise for control with two DPDT toggle switches:
I have added LED indicators to the circuit. These are not true signal indications. They only show which way the turnout is thrown.
I suggest using various coloured wires so you can keep things straight when connecting the toggle switches.
Just to clarify, this is not a diagram for controlling a crossover with two Tortoises, although the same thing could be applied to control a crossover with two toggles.
Dave, thanks for posting this. It doesn't look difficult, although I don't really understand what the diagram is showing regarding the signal indicators. I'm not trained in reading schematics, so I'm not sure what the symbols mean. It looks like arrows traveling around an X. Every other part of the diagram makes sense to me.
hon30critter These are not true signal indications. They only show which way the turnout is thrown.
Looking closely at the table you provided, it seems that if the DPDT switches were near each other and you looked at them together, you'd be able to tell instantly which position the points were in; if both switches were up or both down, they'd be one way, and if either one was up and the other was down, then the points would be the other way. Is that correct?
EDIT: Also, I see the schematic specifies a 12-volt power supply, not 9, and certainly not 7.5, which is what I'm using. Is that number negotiable?
-Matt
crossthedogI don't really understand what the diagram is showing regarding the signal indicators.
The symbols indicate bi-colour LEDs or two separate different coloured LEDs. You are correct in that the 'X' means that that portion of the wire doesn't exist. All you do is connect one lead of your bi-colour LED to the wire coming from the toggle switch and the other lead to the wire running to the #1 or #8 Tortoise contacts. If you are using a bi-coloured LED (red/green in my case), when the power to the Tortoise is positive, the LED will show one colour. When you reverse the power to the Tortoise to move the turnout points, the other colour will show. You can do it with two separate LEDs too. All you do is wire the positive lead from one LED and the negative lead from the other LED together and then wire the assembly in series with the #1 or #8 contacts. If the colours are reversed from what you want, just flip the LEDs around (in other words, reverse the polarity). I should note that it is very helpful to use some sort of connecting blocks (terminal strips) in the circuit so you can switch polarity easily without having to do any soldering. They look like these:
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/401343220090?hash=item5d71eb897a:g:NmoAAOSwC8hhAMjr
crossthedogThese are not true signal indications. They only show which way the turnout is thrown. I don't know what that means; I mean, what is the difference between those two things?
Real signal systems show which section of track a train is in and when that train can proceed or has to stop. The LEDs I showed don't have anything to do with train location. All they show is which way a turnout is thrown. The signals I use light up like real signals but they don't function like them.
crossthedogLooking closely at the table you provided, it seems that if the DPDT switches were near each other and you looked at them together, you'd be able to tell instantly which position the points were in; if both switches were up or both down, they'd be one way, and if either one was up and the other was down, then the points would be the other way. Is that correct
Theoretically I guess that is correct, but the whole idea of having two separate toggles is so that they can be placed in different locations around the layout. In reality, the two toggles would never be that close together. If they were you wouldn't need two toggles.
crossthedog I see the schematic specifies a 12-volt power supply, not 9, and certainly not 7.5, which is what I'm using. Is that number negotiable?
The number is negotiable. In my case I will be running five LEDs for most Tortoises (two for each of two control panels and one for the signal on the layout) Eack LED drops the voltage to the Tortoise by about 2 volts, so I will probably end up using 18 volt power supplies. The Tortoise will still only get about 8 volts. In cases where there will be fewer than five LEDs I can just use a resistor to drop the voltage so all the Tortoises run at approximately the same speed.
Don't be afraid to ask more questions!
Cheers!!
crossthedogI don't know what that means; I mean, what is the difference between those two things?
As Dave said, real railroad signals are used for allowing trains to enter blocks, and indicate block occupancy.
They also do about 12,000,000 other things! I gave up trying to understand prototype train signalling years ago.
So, all the signals on my layouts have been used to indicate how turnouts are thrown, and whether or not the next block is assigned to a different cab so you can enter.
This is not like real trains, but it is the information I need.
I prefer my signals (and everything else too ) to be different from real trains.
the LEDs indicate turnout alignment
LastspikemikeCrossovers can always be safely thrown as one unit.
Even if I said, "but what if a train on track X needs to have its turnout straightened so it can pass and I end up throwing the track Y turnout under a neighboring train..." there's no way that a turnout sitting under the neighboring (track Y) train would NOT be straight already. At least, not in a yard situation with very short crossovers, which means that the track X turnout would also already be straight.
It took me a long minute to work this through my grey matter yesterday, but I get it now.
crossthedog I was initially thinking that I might end up inadvertantly throwing a turnout underneath a train that was sitting across it
Matt, this is one of those situations where diagrams help a lot and too many words just make things confusing.
There are generally two types of crossovers identified as "single" or "double".
Again, generally speaking, a single crossover can be safely set up so one toggle controls both turnouts at once. In the diagram below, Train A is approaching the crossover, and will move through it to avoid colliding with Train B.
With a Double Crossover, it is more desirable, but less convenient, to wire each crossover seperate from one another. In the diagram with the double crossover if all four turnouts are controlled with a single toggle, when the turnouts are aligned so Train A can go through the crossover, the points underneath Train B will also move, and this could cause problems.
On my layout, I will have two double crossovers. The one on the main will have all four turnouts controlled as one. The double crossover near the yard will need to have each crossover controlled seperate from one another.
Fortunately I have the crossovers already. These things are selling for prohibitive prices on the secondary market now.
I hope this clears things up.
I hope my diagrams were helpful for explaining trackwork.
SeeYou190On my layout, I will have two double crossovers. The one on the main will have all four turnouts controlled as one. The double crossover near the yard will need to have each crossover controlled seperate from one another.
Also, it looks like you have an extra crossover for sale. Pure gold!
I've run the bus to power my Tortoises and now I need to connect the wires from several DPDTs to the bus wires. I have used these puppies with success...
...but they're kind of hard to use with smaller (22 gauge) wires. I have seen videos where modelers swear by IDCs (a.k.a. "suitcase connectors"), which would be a lot easier, but I've also heard they can be unreliable. Is there a consensus here (who am I kidding?) about suitcase connectors? What is your experience with them? I'm looking at these from MicroMark:
https://www.micromark.com/Suitcase-Connectors-IDC-905-Red-Pkg-of-25?gclid=Cj0KCQjwtMCKBhDAARIsAG-2Eu9lX5j_Pow8b1PfP_W8aHtt4OBHkOa95FzA1ukXNZ3VWsGCIirK-DcaAjNWEALw_wcB
Thanks,
I've never used a suitcase connector. Anywhere.
Many of my connections under the layout are with simple, very small wirenuts.
Wire_connections-1 by Edmund, on Flickr
Alternately, I've recently begun to use these small push-to-release spring connectors. You need a #4 x 5/8 or 3/4 screw to mount them.
Pushin2 by Edmund, on Flickr
These make it easy to swap A-B or 1-8 or whatever if you need to reverse a connection. The triples are good for frog wiring, too.
Those push-ins you show are great for replacing fluorescent lamp ballasts but, as you found out, 22 ga. stranded wire might be a challenge. Removing the wire once it is stabbed is pretty tough, too.
I do like the Wago lever connectors and use them sometimes, too. I use Velcro® dots to secure them so they aren't putting too much weight on the wire.
Good Luck, Ed
crossthedogI assume that the reason your double crossover on the main will be wired as one is because your operations there will be different enough from thos in the yard that the separate wiring would rarely be needed.
That is all exactly correct. There should never be a train close enough to the one on the mainline for it to become an issue.
crossthedogAlso, it looks like you have an extra crossover for sale. Pure gold!
Not for sale, a spare. I hope they layout will be around 20+ years, and I might need to replace one.
crossthedogI've run the bus to power my Tortoises and now I need to connect the wires from several DPDTs to the bus wires. I have used these puppies with success...
I like the "Lever Wire Nuts" from WAGO. They are very reliable, and do not put pressure across the wire like a "Suitcase" connector does.
Make sure you get genuine WAGO and not a knock-off. They are reasonable in bulk from Amazon.
gmpullmanI do like the Wago lever connectors and use them sometimes, too.
SeeYou190I like the "Lever Wire Nuts" from WAGO. They are very reliable, and do not put pressure across the wire like a "Suitcase" connector does.
Simultaneous and similar suggestions from Ed & Kevin!
@Kevin, I'm confused about something. Do the holes (and the wires) go all the way through these Wagos (as with "suitcase connectors") or do you have to strip the wire ends and insert them? It looks like the Wagos are maybe a better version of the orange push-in connectors in my picture, but the same mechanical principal, is that right? I'd be grateful if you or Ed could clarify that.
crossthedogDo the holes (and the wires) go all the way through these Wagos
No, the cavity for the wire is closed. You do have to strip wires they are not "IDCs" (Insulation Displacement Connectors).
Lever up releases wires, lever down locks them in place. There is a small "test port" so you can access the conductor with a meter probe without disconnecting the circuit.
Regards, Ed
hon30critterHere is the wiring diagram showing how to wire a Tortoise for control with two DPDT toggle switches: I have added LED indicators to the circuit. These are not true signal indications. They only show which way the turnout is thrown. I suggest using various coloured wires so you can keep things straight when connecting the toggle switches. Just to clarify, this is not a diagram for controlling a crossover with two Tortoises, although the same thing could be applied to control a crossover with two toggles.
Is there in fact a way to do that?
Any help from Dave or anyone, much appreciated.
Edit: Dave's diagram didn't paste, for some reason. But it's back on page 2.
crossthedogthis is NOT a method for wiring two Tortoises to a single DPDT, as for a crossover where we would always want both turnouts thrown together.
just wire the 2 switch machines in parallel (with proper polarity).
i see no reason why this wouldn't work with reversing switches. you might want to control a crossover from multiple locations?