I just bought the engine of my dreams, the green-boilered Great Northern 2-8-0 Consolidation from Broadway Limited. I'm mainly interested in having a DCC buddy for my only other digital loco, so now I can take full advantage of my DCC operation by having more than one engine on the layout. I can already do that in DC because of the block wiring, and I have several DC locos to run. But the description says that this DCC loco also runs on DC. I'm skeptical because I've heard cautions and fail stories about that.
So here's my question: In your experience, can we really expect a DCC locomotive to run well in DC mode?
It doesn't even matter if the answer is "fuhgettaboutit". I don't have to run it in DC because I have the layout rigged to switch entirely over to DCC. But I am curious what others have experienced with DC/DCC locos.
Thanks!
-Matt
Returning to model railroading after 40 years and taking unconscionable liberties with the SP&S, Northern Pacific and Great Northern roads in the '40s and '50s.
Hi Matt.
It will run in DC just not nearly as well since everything still goes through the decoder. Your starting voltages will be higher and you will have a much smaller usable range on the DC throttle. I have tried running some my DCC lcomotives us DC and was not impressed.
You will also have to make sure that DC mode is enabled on the decoder or it may not work with DC voltage at all. I purposely disable DC functions on my decoders to prevent runaways during short circuits when straight DC current can sometimes be introduced to the track.
The performance of DCC locomotives on DC varies so what you will experience is hard to say.
Your best bet is to try it out and see what happens.
Good Luck.
Scott Sonntag
Lakeshore Sub I purposely disable DC functions on my decoders to prevent runaways during short circuits when straight DC current can sometimes be introduced to the track.
Actually, I'm not even sure I understand what you mean by straight DC. If you run a DCC engine on a DC system, then isn't there straight DC going through the track the whole time? I guess maybe if it goes through the encoder then it has somehow become some OTHER kind of DC?
I'll consider giving the new engine a spin on DC when it comes, but the moment it looks or sounds at all weird I'm shutting that circus down. I'm more just curious about it in a theoretical way, and I've separated my DC from my DCC with a center off DPDT and the impossibility of having both systems' power sources plugged in at the same time.
Thanks for sharing your experience, Scott.
Before I "switched over" to DCC in 2005 I ran several Broadway Limited locos (they only had the GG1 and NYC Hudson back then) and they ran fine on DC. That was with old QSI decoders, though. The speed range is limited while on DC.
Good Luck, Ed
crossthedog Lakeshore Sub I purposely disable DC functions on my decoders to prevent runaways during short circuits when straight DC current can sometimes be introduced to the track. How does that happen, exactly? Actually, I'm not even sure I understand what you mean by straight DC. If you run a DCC engine on a DC system, then isn't there straight DC going through the track the whole time? I guess maybe if it goes through the encoder then it has somehow become some OTHER kind of DC? I'll consider giving the new engine a spin on DC when it comes, but the moment it looks or sounds at all weird I'm shutting that circus down. I'm more just curious about it in a theoretical way, and I've separated my DC from my DCC with a center off DPDT and the impossibility of having both systems' power sources plugged in at the same time. Thanks for sharing your experience, Scott.
How does that happen, exactly?
You disable the decoder's ability to operate in DC by altering the bits programmed into CV29. That particular CV is very important in DCC world because it also controls your light operations, which end of a diesel goes 'forward', and so on. If you google 'CV29 cal" you'll quickly find the search engine providing you with several sites with tables to determine which operating characteristics you want for the locomotive, and then it will tell you which value to programme into CV29.
The decoder only operates in DC. It will accept the square wave alternating current, but it rectifies that AC into DC because that's all the can motor can use; it's a strictly DC motor. So, while it might get DCC at the rails, it must decode the packets and then rectify the power going to the motor. If it gets DC current, it won't have the packets and will behave differently. It will still accelerate from a full stop, but only after the decoder gets about 6+ volts to activate the lights and the sounds if it's a sound decoder.
However, unless your decoder is configured to sense and to operate on both types of track power, it is a moot point as to what it will do in DC. This is important because, in previous years, some decoders, not all of them, would take off like jackrabbits as soon as AC power came rushing into the rails in DCC. The decoders concluded that they were being fed fully-dialed up DC and take off, usually with bad results. The word got out that if one configured CV29 correctly, with the correct value, everything else would be unchanged, but the decoder would just sit when full DCC current became available again next time in a sudden rush. The decoder was instructed to not act on DC current....so it didn't.
For decoders with values higher than 127 for an address, and not Add '03' as comes from the factory, a value of 34 in CV29 removes the ability to operate in DC, but all other features are maintained, such as lights and direction of travel.
selectorIt will still accelerate from a full stop, but only after the decoder gets about 6+ volts to activate the lights and the sounds if it's a sound decoder.
i'm curous. have no real experience running DCC locos with DC
as mentioned, the DC voltage needs to be high enough to power the decoder processor after the voltage drops (~1.4V) across the bridge.
but at that point, does the same voltage go to the motor or does the decoder use PWM to more gradually increase the PWM motor voltage?
in other words, as the DC voltage increases from ~6V to ~12V, does the motor see a gradual increase from 0 to ~12V?
is the behavior the same for all decoders?
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
gregc selector t will still accelerate from a full stop, but only after the decoder gets about 6+ volts to activate the lights and the sounds if it's a sound decoder. i'm curous. have no real experience running DCC locos with DC as mentioned, the DC voltage needs to be high enough to power the decoder processor after the voltage drops (~1.4V) across the bridge. but at that point, does the same voltage go to the motor or does the decoder use PWM to more gradually increase the PWM motor voltage? in other words, as the DC voltage increases from ~6V to ~12V, does the motor see a gradual increase from 0 to ~12V? is the behavior the same for all decoders?
selector t will still accelerate from a full stop, but only after the decoder gets about 6+ volts to activate the lights and the sounds if it's a sound decoder.
Yes Greg, we know you are curous.
There are variations from decoder to decoder regarding how they perform on DC.
And then the bigger problem, it depends on WHAT KIND of DC you are using.
Very few power packs are pure, well filtered DC, and that is not the best way to control a motor on DC anyway. We all know by now that PWM is the best way to control a DC motor, that's why the decoder uses it.
The OP needs to understand that as long as DC operation is enabled, his loco will run on most "normal" DC power packs. How well it will run, its realitive top speed, and the comprssion of the speed range will vary with a lot of factors.
I'm not going to try to explain them all.......
WARNING - if by chance a DC user is using a full voltage pulse width modulated (PWM for short) throttle, there is a good chance the decoder equiped loco will not run, or will run VERY poorly.
I have yet to find a dual mode decoder that will run on my ARISTO CRAFT TRAIN ENGINEER throttles.
The behaviors are alarming. Some locos sit there and vibrate, others have two speeds, stop and full throttle, etc.
The high frequency pulses of the DC PWM throttle confuse the DCC side of the decoder. It does not know what to do.
VOLTAGE - Most "average" DC powerpacks are not well regulated regarding voltage. This makes up for some of the issues Greg is asking about. The no load voltage at full throttle of most/many DC packs is easily 14-16 volts, sometimes more, leaving plenty of headroom for the voltage that the decoder "sucks up".
Generally not the case however for those of us using more advanced DC throttles.
I use regulated and filtered 13.8 volt power supplies to feed my TRAIN ENGINEER wireless throttles. The TRAIN ENGINEER is just a throttle, it does not come with a power supply. It can handle up to 10 amps at 24 volts IIRC. It was designed to work with all scales up to and including large scale.
Sound equiped dual mode decoders are most annoying on DC........... but admittedly I generally find sound equiped locos annoying after 10 minutes in any case, so maybe my opinon does not count there.
My advice, don't run DCC locos on DC, don't leave decoders in locos you plan to permanently run on DC.
Don't be on the fence, be DC or DCC.....
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRAL My advice, don't run DCC locos on DC, don't leave decoders in locos you plan to permanently run on DC. Don't be on the fence, be DC or DCC..... Sheldon
I get it. Some guys have operated DC layouts for years, accumulated a lot of DC locos, and just cannot convert to DCC for financial reasons, or sentimental reasons, or both.
But, I gotta agree with you in general, Sheldon. Why not one or the other? Or, run separate layouts if you have the space. Or, add a DCC powered track to your DC layout. Or, figure out a foolproof way, if there is one, to flip a switch to run either DC or DCC, one or the other.
Rich
Alton Junction
gregc selector It will still accelerate from a full stop, but only after the decoder gets about 6+ volts to activate the lights and the sounds if it's a sound decoder. i'm curous. have no real experience running DCC locos with DC as mentioned, the DC voltage needs to be high enough to power the decoder processor after the voltage drops (~1.4V) across the bridge. but at that point, does the same voltage go to the motor or does the decoder use PWM to more gradually increase the PWM motor voltage? in other words, as the DC voltage increases from ~6V to ~12V, does the motor see a gradual increase from 0 to ~12V? is the behavior the same for all decoders?
selector It will still accelerate from a full stop, but only after the decoder gets about 6+ volts to activate the lights and the sounds if it's a sound decoder.
In order to avoid the "potential" hijacking of the thread and to help facilitate longer discussions on queries that are highly technical in nature (and, yes - this has happened more than once already this year), I would recommend starting a separate thread on the topic - Thanks.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
crossthedog I just bought the engine of my dreams, the green-boilered Great Northern 2-8-0 Consolidated from Broadway Limited. I'm mainly interested in having a DCC buddy for my only other digital loco, so now I can take full advantage of my DCC operation by having more than one engine on the layout. I can already do that in DC because of the block wiring, and I have several DC locos to run. But the description says that this DCC loco also runs on DC. I'm skeptical because I've heard cautions and fail stories about that. So here's my question: In your experience, can we really expect a DCC locomotive to run well in DC mode? It doesn't even matter if the answer is "fuhgettaboutit". I don't have to run it in DC because I have the layout rigged to switch entirely over to DCC. But I am curious what others have experienced with DC/DCC locos. Thanks! -Matt
I just bought the engine of my dreams, the green-boilered Great Northern 2-8-0 Consolidated from Broadway Limited. I'm mainly interested in having a DCC buddy for my only other digital loco, so now I can take full advantage of my DCC operation by having more than one engine on the layout. I can already do that in DC because of the block wiring, and I have several DC locos to run. But the description says that this DCC loco also runs on DC. I'm skeptical because I've heard cautions and fail stories about that.
I think we have the same dreams. That engine is like a temptress. Buy me sir, I can be all yours for less than you think. Still talking about the engine by the way.
JJF
Prototypically modeling the Great Northern in Minnesota with just a hint of freelancing.
Yesterday is History.
Tomorrow is a Mystery.
But today is a Gift, that is why it is called the Present.
Lastspikemike Anything bought new in the last few years equipped with a dual mode decoder will run fine in DC mode if powered by a relatively new DC powerpack.
Anything bought new in the last few years equipped with a dual mode decoder will run fine in DC mode if powered by a relatively new DC powerpack.
Completely wrong, old or new, if that DC throttle/power pack uses pulse width modulation, most, if not all decoders will go nuts.
Lastspikemike Once you run DCC with sound regularly you won't think too highly of DC only.
Once you run DCC with sound regularly you won't think too highly of DC only.
Says you. I have spent dozens, if not hundreds of hours operating the DCC layouts of my friends with sound equiped locos, After 15-30 minutes I can't stand the noise. Especially if there are multiple engines running (even at low volumes) and people trying to talk over the loco sounds.
To each there own, but don't assume you know what others like/want.
I will now defer to Tom's request and wait for a more detailed discussion elsewhere if it appears, and if not, that's ok too.
LastspikemikeOnce you run DCC with sound regularly you won't think too highly of DC only.
I agree with most of what Sheldon states. While I, myself, like and use DCC, I am more into it for the independent control than the sound. And, as far as sound, my tolerance level is higher for a steam locomotive than a diesel. But even after a period of time my ears say enough and F8 (for mute) is a welcome alternative. That allows me to listen to and enjoy the clickity-clack of the metal wheels crossing over the rail joints, which I find relaxing.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Lastspikemike Anything bought new in the last few years equipped with a dual mode decoder will run fine in DC mode if powered by a relatively new DC powerpack. Completely wrong, old or new, if that DC throttle/power pack uses pulse width modulation, most, if not all decoders will go nuts. Lastspikemike Once you run DCC with sound regularly you won't think too highly of DC only. Says you. I have spent dozens, if not hundreds of hours operating the DCC layouts of my friends with sound equiped locos, After 15-30 minutes I can't stand the noise. Especially if there are multiple engines running (even at low volumes) and people trying to talk over the loco sounds. To each there own, but don't assume you know what others like/want. I will now defer to Tom's request and wait for a more detailed discussion elsewhere if it appears, and if not, that's ok too. Sheldon
Before this becomes completely about something else (too late, right), I just thought I'd say thanks everyone for the information about this... and even your personal opinions on this. I don't think I'll have a compelling reason to run my new DCC loco on the DC system and thanks to this thread I can see compelling reasons NOT to.
When I'm in a sound mood I'll be able to run my Consolidation as the mainline power (freight or passenger), and drop cuts of cars for the RS-3 to come fetch off the siding, build into trains in the yard, and run up the branch to deliver in Priest River. Otherwise, I'll run my DC locos and I have ten power blocks to play with. Tickety-boo.
@Sheldon, I'm glad you said you find sound annoying after a while. I have experienced the same thing and felt guilty about it. I like the sounds, but it does start to get on my nerves and I thought maybe there was something wrong with me.
JDawgI think we have the same dreams. That engine is like a temptress. Buy me sir, I can be all yours for less than you think. Still talking about the engine by the way.
Can someone please change the title of this thread to correct "Consolidated" to "Consolidation"? How embarrassing. I know someone can do it because my post titles have been edited by others before. Please and thank you.
UPDATE: Never mind, I figured it out. -mdf
crossthedog Before this becomes completely about something else (too late, right), I just thought I'd say thanks everyone for the information about this... and even your personal opinions on this. I don't think I'll have a compelling reason to run my new DCC loco on the DC system and thanks to this thread I can see compelling reasons NOT to. When I'm in a sound mood I'll be able to run my Consolidation as the mainline power (freight or passenger), and drop cuts of cars for the RS-3 to come fetch off the siding, build into trains in the yard, and run up the branch to deliver in Priest River. Otherwise, I'll run my DC locos and I have ten power blocks to play with. Tickety-boo. @Sheldon, I'm glad you said you find sound annoying after a while. I have experienced the same thing and felt guilty about it. I like the sounds, but it does start to get on my nerves and I thought maybe there was something wrong with me. JDawg I think we have the same dreams. That engine is like a temptress. Buy me sir, I can be all yours for less than you think. Still talking about the engine by the way. Ha ha, yes JDawg. Well said. -Matt
JDawg I think we have the same dreams. That engine is like a temptress. Buy me sir, I can be all yours for less than you think. Still talking about the engine by the way.
Ha ha, yes JDawg. Well said.
Matt, while I don't hold a degree in audiology, one of my other hobbies is building HiFi speaker systems.
It is well proven audio science that sounds that are tinny or lack full range are more likely to become irratating to our senses.
The little speakers in our trains cannot reproduce sounds much below 200-300 Hz, and start lacking smoothness or fidelity way before getting that low. So the lack of base sounds, in program material that should have base sounds, can set your brain a little crazy, depending on your sensitivity to this issue - which differs widely among humans.....
But there is a measurably large percentage of people who have a problem with higher pitched chaotic sounds for any sustained amount of time.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I have spent dozens, if not hundreds of hours operating the DCC layouts of my friends with sound equiped locos, After 15-30 minutes I can't stand the noise. Especially if there are multiple engines running (even at low volumes) and people trying to talk over the loco sounds.
I have spent dozens, if not hundreds of hours operating the DCC layouts of my friends with sound equiped locos, After 15-30 minutes I can't stand the noise. Especially if there are multiple engines running (even at low volumes) and people trying to talk over the loco sounds.
But for someone running locos on a DCC layout, sound can be annoying after awhile, particularly if occurring simultaneously from several locos. Then, it's time to mute several or all in the interest of peace and quiet.
richhotrain Then, it's time to mute
button 8
gregc richhotrain Then, it's time to mute button 8
So why pay for something you don't want in the first place?
Lastspikemike Just pointing out that real locomotives make highly objectionable noises and they are very loud. What is it about the feeble sounds produced by model locomotives that could possibly be objectionable?
Just pointing out that real locomotives make highly objectionable noises and they are very loud. What is it about the feeble sounds produced by model locomotives that could possibly be objectionable?
You answered your own question - "feeble sounds".
Just like DCC, the topic of sound has been discussed on here before, and the percentages were similar in that easily 1/3 or more did not find sound important desirable.
I would much rather listen to the wheels clicky clack, or the beautiful voice of Linda Ronstadt. My killer stereo and 1700 albums are in the train room.....
To our OP, most of us understand the limitations of the hobby. Our toys are only that, and the sound systems are essentially also toys...or parts of toys. So, while get get a nicely detailed shell and a pretty decent drive mechanism, plus a decoder and sound capability for all of $270, it's still a toy and not very costly compared to what Sheldon would want for a pair of his hi-fi speakers if he were to offer them up for sale.
We learn that sound, like 'smoke' and water, don't scale worth a darn, and they are poor stand-ins for the real things. We learn that the base rate, per factory defaults, for our sound decoders is vastly over-driven with the commensurately awful cacophany that accompanies the over-driven system. So, we learn to turn down the Master Volume CV setting. By turning down that volume in all of your decoders, you get a better scaling that permits you to actually enjoy more of the experience and find that the more distant locos emitting 'noises' don't compete quite so vociferously...and objectionably.
We all must suspend disbelief in this hobby. They're not 'real' trains, our layouts are not real tracks, we don't be the deep bass sounds that a typical passing locomotive emits for onlookers standing 20' from a crossing.
I haven't actually done this, but it seems to me that one could tune the sounds, all of them, to suit one's taste, and then operate in the proper type of DC for a better experience than I had when I purchased my first steamer 15 years ago, a BLI Hudson with QSI decoder and sound. It was ear-splitting, but I was very pleased to be able to (mostly) control the steamer with a simple Bachmann transformer. Within a couple of months I had migrated to a Super Empire Builder from Digitrax and have not looked back. You'll be there soon enough.
Enjoy.
selectorWe all must suspend disbelief in this hobby. They're not 'real' trains, our layouts are not real tracks, we don't be the deep bass sounds that a typical passing locomotive emits for onlookers standing 20' from a crossing.
Crandell's statement made me ponder something I hadn't considered before until now.
For me the enjoyment of sound is very contingent on the size and/or the confines of a layout. Unless one is actually on the train itself, the only time we normally hear a train - which is loud - is when it's approaching or when it's passing by. Otherwise, the area where we are standing at is generally quiet - i.e. until the next train comes along. And, when a train is idling at a station, it is nowhere near as loud as it is when it is operating under load.
Since my previous layout was the proverbial 4 x 8, the sound was audible constantly (no decay), which is not very realistic. So, after a given point in time, my ears reached that saturation point and I would press F8 to mute it. And that given point in time was generally shorter for diesels than it was for steam locomotives. And it had less to do with the amount of volume because I always reduced the master volume by 1/3 to 1/2 maximum when first setting up that particular sound decoder.
When I have had opportunity to run my locomotives on much larger layouts, sound is much more tolerable for a longer period of time because of this "arrival & departure" phenomenon. This creates more credibility and I have to spend less time suspending disbelief, as Crandell puts it.
And I will agree with Crandell nearly completely.
The question we must all ask ourselves is what are my goals and does onboard sound add to those goals?
As Tom points out, in real life you don't really notice the noise of trains unless you are pretty close to them.
My layout goals are more "big picture", so is some small effect of sound at suitable low volumes, which would need to be installed in 140 locomotives and which is best served by a control system that I don't really need the other features of, worth the time, money and added complexity?
For many that answer is yes, for others not so much.
Just like I "require" signaling, CTC, large curves, close coupled passenger cars with working diaphragms, those are things that better help me suspend disbelief, much more than sound does.
Yet many of you "do without" those things, I can do without sound.
Sound is like single malt scotch. If you think Cutty Sark is what scotch is supposed to taste like, you are not going to like Laphroig which tastes like CS soaked in peat moss.
I like sound, but it is not Laphroig or Dalwhinie. My sound is not Youtube sound where the bell and the horn have to make constant noise so you know it works.
Do trains make noise, far away? I think they do. Where I live now, I can hear the rumble on the tracks a mile and half away. What I think I hear is track noise, but I hunt in SC and I clearly hear the diesels 5 mile away. I have also been doing railfaning photography at Thomas Viaduct and was suprised to hear and not see a train coming at me 100 yards away.
Back to the OP's question, Rapido specifically recommends against using the MRC 1300 with their DCC. I don't know why that is, nor do I know why on DCC the decoder senses DC and takes off.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Henry,
I don't know anything about scotch.
I live just outside the little burg of Havre de Grace, Maryland where both the old B&O mainline east, and the PRR Northeast Corridor cross the mighty Susquehanna River.
Those two mainlines parallel US 40, one on each side, as you likely know, and in many places the CSX engineers can wave at the the AMTRAK engineers. The two mainlines are, in some places, only 200' apart.
My home is 3.4 miles as the crow flies from those tracks at their closest, and yes, on a quiet night, you can hear the track noise, the rumble of the diesels on a few small grades, and the horns as the CSX trains blow thru the level crossing in downtown Aberdeen.
Yet, at the same time, during the average busy day driving down US 40 with the tracks on either side, even with your windows open, you can barely hear the train on either side that you are pacing as you drive along. Yet it is only 100-200 feet away?
Nature does funny stuff with sound..........
Now, if I was building a layout where I only operated one train at a time, and likely in a larger scale, I would be all in for sound.........
Lastspikemike MRC 1300 isn't clean enough power. To complain that DCC sound isn't real enough is frankly ridiculous. Sound doesn't scale. Trains have really lousy sound, really lousy. Nobody wants real train sounds in their train room. No matter how much they think they do. QSI (or at least BLI) tried with Rolling Thunder which was as popular as a screen door in a submarine. What DCC sound should deliver is the sense or idea of a train passing through. Not the real thing. I also don't like little HO people, especially in my model locomotive cabs. That's me driving the train, not tiny plastic people. That's me dining in the dining car. Who are we kidding here?
MRC 1300 isn't clean enough power.
To complain that DCC sound isn't real enough is frankly ridiculous. Sound doesn't scale. Trains have really lousy sound, really lousy. Nobody wants real train sounds in their train room. No matter how much they think they do. QSI (or at least BLI) tried with Rolling Thunder which was as popular as a screen door in a submarine.
What DCC sound should deliver is the sense or idea of a train passing through. Not the real thing.
I also don't like little HO people, especially in my model locomotive cabs. That's me driving the train, not tiny plastic people. That's me dining in the dining car.
Who are we kidding here?
I never said it was not "real enough", I said it hurts my ears and my brain after 15 minutes.
And again, passenger cars squeeking around toy like curves where the little people have to jump 4' from car to car make it harder for me to suspend disbelief more so than no sound........
We all pick different compromises.........
Time for me to go away again for a few days, maybe longer......
To go with the bumblebee that can't fly, there have been scientific studies demonstrating that you can't hear music through early broadcast AM radio. Yet people listened to and enjoyed music for decades before WWII.
My principal complaint with toy-train sound is that there is utterly inadequate dynamic range for the various sounds, with the whistle usually being overly compressed but often distorted, the bell excessively strident and 'close-miked', and the other sounds not proportional. That said, to me it can add tremendous realism to hear as well as see both motive power and equipment making appropriate sound. It doesn't need to be loud sound, and yes, there are times I'd like to mute it wholly or selectively. Why the individual sounds cannot have their levels and EQ individually adjusted is something I have never wholly comprehended.
I have never understood the desire to have canned cab chatter, 'freight yard sounds', or ambient noises like farmyards or station PAs in other than toy trains. There's certainly a place for meaningful or directed crew noises -- radio relevant to train movements, the double peep of trainline signal, even conductors calling 'board' at starting. But those would require programming and recording beyond what current decoder makers seem to provide.
Overmod...I have never understood the desire to have canned cab chatter, 'freight yard sounds', or ambient noises like farmyards or station PAs in other than toy trains...
Truth be told, they're all toy trains.
Overmod Why the individual sounds cannot have their levels and EQ individually adjusted is something I have never wholly comprehended.
Actually, ESU, TCS, and Soundtraxx sound decoders allow you to adjust the volumes of the individual sounds separate from the master volume.