ATLANTIC CENTRAL crossthedog Before this becomes completely about something else (too late, right), I just thought I'd say thanks everyone for the information about this... and even your personal opinions on this. I don't think I'll have a compelling reason to run my new DCC loco on the DC system and thanks to this thread I can see compelling reasons NOT to. When I'm in a sound mood I'll be able to run my Consolidation as the mainline power (freight or passenger), and drop cuts of cars for the RS-3 to come fetch off the siding, build into trains in the yard, and run up the branch to deliver in Priest River. Otherwise, I'll run my DC locos and I have ten power blocks to play with. Tickety-boo. @Sheldon, I'm glad you said you find sound annoying after a while. I have experienced the same thing and felt guilty about it. I like the sounds, but it does start to get on my nerves and I thought maybe there was something wrong with me. JDawg I think we have the same dreams. That engine is like a temptress. Buy me sir, I can be all yours for less than you think. Still talking about the engine by the way. Ha ha, yes JDawg. Well said. -Matt Matt, while I don't hold a degree in audiology, one of my other hobbies is building HiFi speaker systems. It is well proven audio science that sounds that are tinny or lack full range are more likely to become irratating to our senses. The little speakers in our trains cannot reproduce sounds much below 200-300 Hz, and start lacking smoothness or fidelity way before getting that low. So the lack of base sounds, in program material that should have base sounds, can set your brain a little crazy, depending on your sensitivity to this issue - which differs widely among humans..... But there is a measurably large percentage of people who have a problem with higher pitched chaotic sounds for any sustained amount of time. Sheldon
crossthedog Before this becomes completely about something else (too late, right), I just thought I'd say thanks everyone for the information about this... and even your personal opinions on this. I don't think I'll have a compelling reason to run my new DCC loco on the DC system and thanks to this thread I can see compelling reasons NOT to. When I'm in a sound mood I'll be able to run my Consolidation as the mainline power (freight or passenger), and drop cuts of cars for the RS-3 to come fetch off the siding, build into trains in the yard, and run up the branch to deliver in Priest River. Otherwise, I'll run my DC locos and I have ten power blocks to play with. Tickety-boo. @Sheldon, I'm glad you said you find sound annoying after a while. I have experienced the same thing and felt guilty about it. I like the sounds, but it does start to get on my nerves and I thought maybe there was something wrong with me. JDawg I think we have the same dreams. That engine is like a temptress. Buy me sir, I can be all yours for less than you think. Still talking about the engine by the way. Ha ha, yes JDawg. Well said. -Matt
Before this becomes completely about something else (too late, right), I just thought I'd say thanks everyone for the information about this... and even your personal opinions on this. I don't think I'll have a compelling reason to run my new DCC loco on the DC system and thanks to this thread I can see compelling reasons NOT to.
When I'm in a sound mood I'll be able to run my Consolidation as the mainline power (freight or passenger), and drop cuts of cars for the RS-3 to come fetch off the siding, build into trains in the yard, and run up the branch to deliver in Priest River. Otherwise, I'll run my DC locos and I have ten power blocks to play with. Tickety-boo.
@Sheldon, I'm glad you said you find sound annoying after a while. I have experienced the same thing and felt guilty about it. I like the sounds, but it does start to get on my nerves and I thought maybe there was something wrong with me.
JDawg I think we have the same dreams. That engine is like a temptress. Buy me sir, I can be all yours for less than you think. Still talking about the engine by the way.
Ha ha, yes JDawg. Well said.
-Matt
Matt, while I don't hold a degree in audiology, one of my other hobbies is building HiFi speaker systems.
It is well proven audio science that sounds that are tinny or lack full range are more likely to become irratating to our senses.
The little speakers in our trains cannot reproduce sounds much below 200-300 Hz, and start lacking smoothness or fidelity way before getting that low. So the lack of base sounds, in program material that should have base sounds, can set your brain a little crazy, depending on your sensitivity to this issue - which differs widely among humans.....
But there is a measurably large percentage of people who have a problem with higher pitched chaotic sounds for any sustained amount of time.
Sheldon
LastspikemikeTo my knowledge, no DCC sound decoder can reproduce the difference but perhaps my trains aren't heavy enough. Rapido's Royal Hudson does a decent job of the difference for a steam locomotive. I've not heard a diesel produce a similar difference.
Actually there are several decoders now that change the diesel sound when the engine is working hard, triggered by Back EMF I believe. However, it usually kicks in when a train is laboring going up a grade, but some will do it when starting a train.
BigDaddy Sound is like single malt scotch. If you think Cutty Sark is what scotch is supposed to taste like, you are not going to like Laphroig which tastes like CS soaked in peat moss.
Sound is like single malt scotch. If you think Cutty Sark is what scotch is supposed to taste like, you are not going to like Laphroig which tastes like CS soaked in peat moss.
Some time back, I got caught up in the effete snobberry of single malt scotch, blind tastings and all of that stuff, yada, yada, yada. Just buy a bottle of Chivas Regal and Drambuie. Now, you've got yourself a Rusty Nail.
Put on a tweed kilt coat with elbow patches, if you must. Drink one and all in the world is good. Have a second and a gilt starts to look good. If you dare, have a third, and sleep the night away.
DCC sound? It starts sounding good before you finish that first Rusty Nail.
Rich
Alton Junction
gregc what should it sound like if you're a scale 261 ft (3' * 87) away? don't low frequencies propogate better than high frequencies?
what should it sound like if you're a scale 261 ft (3' * 87) away?
don't low frequencies propogate better than high frequencies?
Yes, and in the right circumstances, a person walking along tracks (almost certainly illegally...and unwisely) with their back to an on-coming locomotive will stand a poor chance of hearing it. If there's loud flange squeal, and of course a bell or horn/whistle, that'll be different. But people have been caught on bridges with nowhere to go but down when they didn't know a train, labouring fairly significantly, was about to cross the bridge. The whistle might have given it away, but not the low thrumbing unless it's quiet.
For me, two things stand out for being near steamers, apart from heat and maybe some faint hissing:
a. the turbo-generator with its high-pitched whine; and
b. the pump(s) with its intermittent thump-clink, thump-clink.
About all I'll tolerate for any length of time when not actually running a locomotive are those two sounds. And as Tom stated earlier, those neutral and activated sounds are all tuned for my tolerance and room, usually in the 40% of maximum range...or less, like the horrible injector and blow down sounds. Yeesh.
Overmod ... I have never understood the desire to have canned cab chatter, 'freight yard sounds', or ambient noises like farmyards or station PAs in other than toy trains. There's certainly a place for meaningful or directed crew noises -- radio relevant to train movements, the double peep of trainline signal, even conductors calling 'board' at starting. But those would require programming and recording beyond what current decoder makers seem to provide.
...
I have never understood the desire to have canned cab chatter, 'freight yard sounds', or ambient noises like farmyards or station PAs in other than toy trains. There's certainly a place for meaningful or directed crew noises -- radio relevant to train movements, the double peep of trainline signal, even conductors calling 'board' at starting. But those would require programming and recording beyond what current decoder makers seem to provide.
Me three. I joked, in posts, maybe 12 years ago when some new decoders were announced with functions and sounds soaring into the stratosphere, that F24 would be the flushing of a toilet in a waiting room somewhere. F31 a seagull's squawk.
BigDaddy Sound is like single malt scotch. If you think Cutty Sark is what scotch is supposed to taste like, you are not going to like Laphroig which tastes like CS soaked in peat moss. I like sound, but it is not Laphroig or Dalwhinie...
I like sound, but it is not Laphroig or Dalwhinie...
Oooooooooh....you know I love it when you talk dirty.
Outdoors, not exactly, depends on a lot of factors.
Ever been to an outdoor concert without some sort of closed in stage? The bass sounds weak. But a street festival where the buildings act as wall, the base booms.
Too many variables, like my example above about tracks around here.
The sound depends upon the train, IMO.
There is a fairly busy mainline about 2000 feet from my house. 100 cars, two locos, sometimes a third loco in the middle if its a longer train. Big trains.
I can hear the rumble of the oncoming train long before it approaches the grade crossing and blows the horn. I've gotten used to the ambient sounds of my quiet backyard changing as the train approaches.
I imagine a herd of 1000 buffalo stampeding across the prairie caused the ground to vibrate with specific harmonics, in a similar fashion.
I do not hear any exhaust or traction motor noise.
At the local landscape nursery, the Georgia jungle of foliage prevents me from seeing a train on the same tracks, and the commercial noise prevents me from hearing the train at all until its right there. The tracks are literally about 60 feet away on the other side of a fence. I hear no locomotive noise at all when its cruising at 40 -50 mph but hear low pitched rumble and high pitched squeaks of the entire train.
100 cars, two to three locos, how many tons is that vibrating the ground?
Railfanning the local industries, I mostly hear exhaust note and traction motor noise from the loco reving and such. The loco does emit lower noises, probably from the PM vibration itself as it revs.
Of course, there is always wheel squeak of the cars. Something that the model producers have not replicated.
- Douglas
I'm going to position layout based bells, whistles and horns at logical locations. Some automated, some operator controlled.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
Lastspikemike MRC 1300 isn't clean enough power. To complain that DCC sound isn't real enough is frankly ridiculous. Sound doesn't scale. Trains have really lousy sound, really lousy. Nobody wants real train sounds in their train room. No matter how much they think they do. QSI (or at least BLI) tried with Rolling Thunder which was as popular as a screen door in a submarine. What DCC sound should deliver is the sense or idea of a train passing through. Not the real thing. I also don't like little HO people, especially in my model locomotive cabs. That's me driving the train, not tiny plastic people. That's me dining in the dining car. Who are we kidding here?
MRC 1300 isn't clean enough power.
To complain that DCC sound isn't real enough is frankly ridiculous. Sound doesn't scale. Trains have really lousy sound, really lousy. Nobody wants real train sounds in their train room. No matter how much they think they do. QSI (or at least BLI) tried with Rolling Thunder which was as popular as a screen door in a submarine.
What DCC sound should deliver is the sense or idea of a train passing through. Not the real thing.
I also don't like little HO people, especially in my model locomotive cabs. That's me driving the train, not tiny plastic people. That's me dining in the dining car.
Who are we kidding here?
You're getting to the point, but not there yet.
We want to hear pleasurable sounds, not necessarily authentic sounds. And a variety of sounds. Not a steady constant white noise racket.
I can't stand the sound of an EMD turbo prime mover.
I have a switching layout. An EMD 567 PM emits a variety of sounds from idle, to rev up, to notching, to cruising, to power down, and back to idle. Many times over in an OP session.
A variety of sounds. throw in a bell and a horn, and its even more. All pretty authetic sounding too, but, a loco pulling 7 cars at 15 mph wouldn't produce much deep base rumble anyway, so the lack of it on my layout makes the sound pretty authentic. And the 567, along with ALCO prime movers, are pretty pleasant sounding.
I can't imagine the horrid experience of having to listen to a EMD turbo prime mover cruising at a steady and monotonous 40 mph for 500 feet of mainline.
Once again, the type of layout we operate dictates different experiences.
And most experiences on this forum come from the 40 mph cruising train perspective.
I suspect in the future we will see a growth in systems like BLI's "Rolling Thunder" where a sound-equipped engine has an onboard speaker but also generates a signal to a large 'under the table' speaker to create the deeper bass sounds.
I think it would also be possible using existing technology to set up a system where the engine itself is silent, but the sound is transmitted to a wireless set of headphones worn by the person controlling the engine. With transponding, you could in theory set it up so the sound would change based on how close or far away the headphones and/or walk-around controller is from the engine...and include a doppler effect for when the engine is moving towards you or away from you.
Overmod I have never understood the desire to have canned cab chatter, 'freight yard sounds', or ambient noises like farmyards or station PAs in other than toy trains. T
I have never understood the desire to have canned cab chatter, 'freight yard sounds', or ambient noises like farmyards or station PAs in other than toy trains. T
This I agree with. I will also add, I don't agree with the engine start up every time power is applied to the locomotive. Locomotives spend their life idling away, not shutting down and being restarted.
An "expensive model collector"
CSX Robert Overmod ...I have never understood the desire to have canned cab chatter, 'freight yard sounds', or ambient noises like farmyards or station PAs in other than toy trains... Truth be told, they're all toy trains.
Overmod ...I have never understood the desire to have canned cab chatter, 'freight yard sounds', or ambient noises like farmyards or station PAs in other than toy trains...
Truth be told, they're all toy trains.
Overmod Why the individual sounds cannot have their levels and EQ individually adjusted is something I have never wholly comprehended.
Actually, ESU, TCS, and Soundtraxx sound decoders allow you to adjust the volumes of the individual sounds separate from the master volume.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Overmod...I have never understood the desire to have canned cab chatter, 'freight yard sounds', or ambient noises like farmyards or station PAs in other than toy trains...
To go with the bumblebee that can't fly, there have been scientific studies demonstrating that you can't hear music through early broadcast AM radio. Yet people listened to and enjoyed music for decades before WWII.
My principal complaint with toy-train sound is that there is utterly inadequate dynamic range for the various sounds, with the whistle usually being overly compressed but often distorted, the bell excessively strident and 'close-miked', and the other sounds not proportional. That said, to me it can add tremendous realism to hear as well as see both motive power and equipment making appropriate sound. It doesn't need to be loud sound, and yes, there are times I'd like to mute it wholly or selectively. Why the individual sounds cannot have their levels and EQ individually adjusted is something I have never wholly comprehended.
I never said it was not "real enough", I said it hurts my ears and my brain after 15 minutes.
And again, passenger cars squeeking around toy like curves where the little people have to jump 4' from car to car make it harder for me to suspend disbelief more so than no sound........
We all pick different compromises.........
Time for me to go away again for a few days, maybe longer......
Henry,
I don't know anything about scotch.
I live just outside the little burg of Havre de Grace, Maryland where both the old B&O mainline east, and the PRR Northeast Corridor cross the mighty Susquehanna River.
Those two mainlines parallel US 40, one on each side, as you likely know, and in many places the CSX engineers can wave at the the AMTRAK engineers. The two mainlines are, in some places, only 200' apart.
My home is 3.4 miles as the crow flies from those tracks at their closest, and yes, on a quiet night, you can hear the track noise, the rumble of the diesels on a few small grades, and the horns as the CSX trains blow thru the level crossing in downtown Aberdeen.
Yet, at the same time, during the average busy day driving down US 40 with the tracks on either side, even with your windows open, you can barely hear the train on either side that you are pacing as you drive along. Yet it is only 100-200 feet away?
Nature does funny stuff with sound..........
Now, if I was building a layout where I only operated one train at a time, and likely in a larger scale, I would be all in for sound.........
I like sound, but it is not Laphroig or Dalwhinie. My sound is not Youtube sound where the bell and the horn have to make constant noise so you know it works.
Do trains make noise, far away? I think they do. Where I live now, I can hear the rumble on the tracks a mile and half away. What I think I hear is track noise, but I hunt in SC and I clearly hear the diesels 5 mile away. I have also been doing railfaning photography at Thomas Viaduct and was suprised to hear and not see a train coming at me 100 yards away.
Back to the OP's question, Rapido specifically recommends against using the MRC 1300 with their DCC. I don't know why that is, nor do I know why on DCC the decoder senses DC and takes off.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
And I will agree with Crandell nearly completely.
The question we must all ask ourselves is what are my goals and does onboard sound add to those goals?
As Tom points out, in real life you don't really notice the noise of trains unless you are pretty close to them.
My layout goals are more "big picture", so is some small effect of sound at suitable low volumes, which would need to be installed in 140 locomotives and which is best served by a control system that I don't really need the other features of, worth the time, money and added complexity?
For many that answer is yes, for others not so much.
Just like I "require" signaling, CTC, large curves, close coupled passenger cars with working diaphragms, those are things that better help me suspend disbelief, much more than sound does.
Yet many of you "do without" those things, I can do without sound.
selectorWe all must suspend disbelief in this hobby. They're not 'real' trains, our layouts are not real tracks, we don't be the deep bass sounds that a typical passing locomotive emits for onlookers standing 20' from a crossing.
Crandell's statement made me ponder something I hadn't considered before until now.
For me the enjoyment of sound is very contingent on the size and/or the confines of a layout. Unless one is actually on the train itself, the only time we normally hear a train - which is loud - is when it's approaching or when it's passing by. Otherwise, the area where we are standing at is generally quiet - i.e. until the next train comes along. And, when a train is idling at a station, it is nowhere near as loud as it is when it is operating under load.
Since my previous layout was the proverbial 4 x 8, the sound was audible constantly (no decay), which is not very realistic. So, after a given point in time, my ears reached that saturation point and I would press F8 to mute it. And that given point in time was generally shorter for diesels than it was for steam locomotives. And it had less to do with the amount of volume because I always reduced the master volume by 1/3 to 1/2 maximum when first setting up that particular sound decoder.
When I have had opportunity to run my locomotives on much larger layouts, sound is much more tolerable for a longer period of time because of this "arrival & departure" phenomenon. This creates more credibility and I have to spend less time suspending disbelief, as Crandell puts it.
To our OP, most of us understand the limitations of the hobby. Our toys are only that, and the sound systems are essentially also toys...or parts of toys. So, while get get a nicely detailed shell and a pretty decent drive mechanism, plus a decoder and sound capability for all of $270, it's still a toy and not very costly compared to what Sheldon would want for a pair of his hi-fi speakers if he were to offer them up for sale.
We learn that sound, like 'smoke' and water, don't scale worth a darn, and they are poor stand-ins for the real things. We learn that the base rate, per factory defaults, for our sound decoders is vastly over-driven with the commensurately awful cacophany that accompanies the over-driven system. So, we learn to turn down the Master Volume CV setting. By turning down that volume in all of your decoders, you get a better scaling that permits you to actually enjoy more of the experience and find that the more distant locos emitting 'noises' don't compete quite so vociferously...and objectionably.
We all must suspend disbelief in this hobby. They're not 'real' trains, our layouts are not real tracks, we don't be the deep bass sounds that a typical passing locomotive emits for onlookers standing 20' from a crossing.
I haven't actually done this, but it seems to me that one could tune the sounds, all of them, to suit one's taste, and then operate in the proper type of DC for a better experience than I had when I purchased my first steamer 15 years ago, a BLI Hudson with QSI decoder and sound. It was ear-splitting, but I was very pleased to be able to (mostly) control the steamer with a simple Bachmann transformer. Within a couple of months I had migrated to a Super Empire Builder from Digitrax and have not looked back. You'll be there soon enough.
Enjoy.
Lastspikemike Just pointing out that real locomotives make highly objectionable noises and they are very loud. What is it about the feeble sounds produced by model locomotives that could possibly be objectionable?
Just pointing out that real locomotives make highly objectionable noises and they are very loud. What is it about the feeble sounds produced by model locomotives that could possibly be objectionable?
You answered your own question - "feeble sounds".
Just like DCC, the topic of sound has been discussed on here before, and the percentages were similar in that easily 1/3 or more did not find sound important desirable.
I would much rather listen to the wheels clicky clack, or the beautiful voice of Linda Ronstadt. My killer stereo and 1700 albums are in the train room.....
gregc richhotrain Then, it's time to mute button 8
richhotrain Then, it's time to mute
button 8
So why pay for something you don't want in the first place?
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I have spent dozens, if not hundreds of hours operating the DCC layouts of my friends with sound equiped locos, After 15-30 minutes I can't stand the noise. Especially if there are multiple engines running (even at low volumes) and people trying to talk over the loco sounds.
I have spent dozens, if not hundreds of hours operating the DCC layouts of my friends with sound equiped locos, After 15-30 minutes I can't stand the noise. Especially if there are multiple engines running (even at low volumes) and people trying to talk over the loco sounds.
But for someone running locos on a DCC layout, sound can be annoying after awhile, particularly if occurring simultaneously from several locos. Then, it's time to mute several or all in the interest of peace and quiet.