Try here: https://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/16272 Maybe of some help.
JPD At this point, I control the Tortoise turnout motors from one side of the layout with DPDT toggle switches connected to bi-color LEDs. However, I would like to be able to control the turnouts from both sides of the peninsula. How do I do this? Can I continue to use DPDT toggle switches or do I have to use momentary DPDT ON-OFF-ON toggle switches on both sides of the layout? Do I have to use push and release momentary button switches?
Let me find a wiring schematic that I drew up for myself, and I will post it.
Rich
Alton Junction
Yes, I've done this at several places around my layout.
Any number of Double-pole, Double-throw switches in series with the DC supply to the Tortoise will reverse the polarity at the 1 and 8 terminals. You can have a hundred if you wanted to.
No reason at all to use momentary or center-off switches.
I usually have my toggles arranged so that when the lever is in the down position the track is routed to the "normal" route through the turnout.
To remind operators that the specific turnout is controlled from multiple points I have the toggle set to flip side-to-side.
I use LEDs in series with one wire going to the Tortoise. To get a remote LED you will have to run an additional pair of wires back to the location of the remote toggle. I use cheap, flexible 22 ga. four conductor telephone wire. Gives me a pair for the Tortoise and a pair for the LED.
Some operators get fancy and use a key switch at the remote location in order to have "authority" over the dispatcher to operate the turnout. That is an option if you really want to get into rule-book operations.
Hope that helps, Ed
I use a latching relay to accomplish this. Here is the basic diagram. I actually ended up making a circuit board so that I could mount it directly on the tortoise machine using a edge connector.
I got the idea from this gentlemen's website.http://www.lkorailroad.com/tortoise-printed-circuit-boards/
Here is the link to relay I use. https://www.digikey.com/short/zp0j8b
Basic idea is that the pushbuttons activate the relay. Since it is a latching relay, when you let go of the pushbutton it stays in the position that it was set as. When you push the other button it set it the other direction. The nice part about this is you can have multiple inputs (different control panels).
Interal to the relay its pretty much a DPDT switch and wired the same way. The center poles of the switch go to tortoise/LED's and the outer ones are crossed over.
I hope this helps.
Colorado Front Range Railroad: http://www.coloradofrontrangerr.com/
The way that you have already wired the Tortoise is sufficient to control it from both sides of the layout by simply adding a second DPDT toggle switch. You do not need to change over to momentary switches.
Here is a simple wiring diagram:
BUT, if you want/need to know which way the switch actually is at both locations becasue you likely cannot see the track from both locations, you need lights or you need to use the pushbutton circuit above, or a similar circuit using two non latching relays.
This circuit uses two non latching relays and normally open pushbuttons which can be lighted to show turnout position. You can have as many locations as you desire.
I use this and similar circuits to control all my CTC/mainline turnouts from both the CTC panel and local tower panels.
The lighted pushbuttons are in the track diagram so they actually show light up the selected route on the "map".
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRAL BUT, if you want/need to know which way the switch actually is at both locations becasue you likely cannot see the track from both locations, you need lights or you need to use the pushbutton circuit above, or a similar circuit using two non latching relays. This circuit uses two non latching relays and normally open pushbuttons which can be lighted to show turnout position. You can have as many locations as you desire. I use this and similar circuits to control all my CTC/mainline turnouts from both the CTC panel and local tower panels. The lighted pushbuttons are in the track diagram so they actually show light up the selected route on the "map". Sheldon
JPD Keep in mind I might have a PhD, but I am not an electrician, so you have to explain this to me in simple terms.
Well, if the OP is interested, I can provide additional help. But I don't have a library of drawings already drawn showing the physical layout of the devices and point to point wiring.
And I don't have any photos that would provide any more clear explaination.
Ladder diagrams like this have been the standard of relay logic control diagrams for 100 years. The symbols are not that hard to understand.
A circle labled R1 or R2 is the relay coil. Two lines creating a gap in the wire is a normally open contact, labeled to match its coil. A slash across that contact symbol indicates a normally closed contact. A break in the wire, with two dots, and the upside down "T", is a normally open push button. The smaller circles labeled "LED" are, LED lamps.
Again, the circuit is similar to the latching relay circuit also offered, and provides the same function.
ATLANTIC CENTRALBUT, if you want/need to know which way the switch actually is at both locations becasue you likely cannot see the track from both locations, you need lights
I believe the OP said he has LEDs in series with the Tortoise.
At this point, I control the Tortoise turnout motors from one side of the layout with DPDT toggle switches connected to bi-color LEDs.
I use bi-color LEDs red/green for the main or red/yellow for secondary routes. Plain and simple, in series with either wire going to the Tortoise. If the indication is not right, flip the LED 180°.
This is the main panel at the East-end of Hickam Siding:
Hickam Siding by Edmund, on Flickr
This is one of my remote panels at the West end of Hickam Siding:
IMG_0168 by Edmund, on Flickr
IF the operator at the East-end dispatchers panel flips HIS toggle the indicator lights on this west panel reflect that change — and vice-versa.
(digital cameras don't like LED colors too well)
Tortoise X2 by Edmund, on Flickr
Regards, Ed
gmpullman ATLANTIC CENTRAL BUT, if you want/need to know which way the switch actually is at both locations becasue you likely cannot see the track from both locations, you need lights I believe the OP said he has LEDs in series with the Tortoise. At this point, I control the Tortoise turnout motors from one side of the layout with DPDT toggle switches connected to bi-color LEDs. I use bi-color LEDs red/green for the main or red/yellow for secondary routes. Plain and simple, in series with either wire going to the Tortoise. If the indication is not right, flip the LED 180°. This is the main panel at the East-end of Hickam Siding: Hickam Siding by Edmund, on Flickr This is one of my remote panels at the West end of Hickam Siding: IMG_0168 by Edmund, on Flickr IF the operator at the East-end dispatchers panel flips HIS toggle the indicator lights on this west panel reflect that change — and vice-versa. (digital cameras don't like LED colors too well) Regards, Ed
ATLANTIC CENTRAL BUT, if you want/need to know which way the switch actually is at both locations becasue you likely cannot see the track from both locations, you need lights
I understand, but I find it confusing to not have the toggle always in the same postion relative to the track alignment.
And, I have small lighted pushbuttons right in the track diagram, elinimating the separate switch/light situation.
I also control complete routes with a single pushbutton in more complex interlockings.
Like this drawing. The red dots represent lighted pushbuttons. Pushing just one button on the straight or crossover routes aligns all four turnouts as needed for the selected route, and lights the correct lights to show the route, or routes in the case of straight thru.
And all of this is duplicated on the local tower panel and the CTC panel.
The control of both crossovers and the branch route requires five relays.
ba&prrTry here: https://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/16272 Maybe of some help.
from the MRH thread
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
I normally prefer toggle control to DCC control of turnouts, but if you really need to control turnout position from multiple points, DCC will do the job.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
MisterBeasley I normally prefer toggle control to DCC control of turnouts, but if you really need to control turnout position from multiple points, DCC will do the job.
Well, I know several modelers who built big layouts and connected all their switch machines to DCC and had mixed feelings about it later.
I would rather not push five buttons to throw one switch. I will stick with my approach that lets me throw multiple switches from multiple locations with one button.
I believe that if a device like the NCE SwitchIt is used to throw the Tortise machines, they have a provision where a single normally open push button can be used to activate the Tortise. I see no reason why any number of normally open push buttons in parallel can't be used and eliminate all that relay stuff.
maxmanI believe that if a device like the NCE SwitchIt is used to throw the Tortise machines, they have a provision where a single normally open push button can be used to activate the Tortise. I see no reason why any number of normally open push buttons in parallel can't be used and eliminate all that relay stuff.
so you'd replace a single relay with a circuit board?
from Renegade
maxman I believe that if a device like the NCE SwitchIt is used to throw the Tortise machines, they have a provision where a single normally open push button can be used to activate the Tortise. I see no reason why any number of normally open push buttons in parallel can't be used and eliminate all that relay stuff.
Well, a NCE Switchit costs $35 retail, $30 street price and does two turnouts/routes, two inputs/outputs.
While a single turnout does requires me to use two relays, any expansion into a more complex interlocking (even a simple crossover) only requires me to use one relay per route, which averages one relay per turnout.
My relays cost a maximum of $2 each.
I don't use DCC and therefor don't need or want the DCC part of the Switchit.
To provide indicator lights, the Switchit actually requires MORE wiring running around the layout than my relay circuit.
And my relays also provide extra contacts used for signal system interlocking logic, and frog power.
So, between $2 and $4 vs $15 per route, and LESS long runs of wiring, I think I will stay with the "relay stuff" rather than spend 5 times as much......
If you want solid state, Rob Paisley has a circuit with a 556 time IC, 1 capacitor, and 2 resistors that will use pushbutton inputs to drive the Tortoise. Multiple sets of pushbuttons can be used. The whole thing, minus the buttons, will cost under $1 in parts.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Dunno. I find all of this talk confusing, and unnecessary, about latching relays, relay coils, Switch-Its, and momentary pushbuttons. And, I suspect that the OP will too.
Operating a Tortoise from two locations is no different in principle than a 3-way switch in household wiring to control a ceiling light from two locations. Being anal, I like all of my wall switches to be toggle (or rocker) down when OFF and up when ON. That's fine for single pole switches, but doesn't always apply to 3-way switches. If I turn the wall switch ON from one location and then OFF from the other location, one toggle will now be up and one toggle will be down. No problem with that because you can see if the ceiling light is ON or OFF.
The same will be true on a layout if the protocol is, say, toggle down for a straight through route and toggle up for a divergent route. But, I agree that you may not be able to visually confirm the route, so you need indicator lights.
Using the wiring diagram that I drew earlier, I have added bi-polar LEDs at each DPDT location and wired the LEDs to the power tabs on the Tortoise. The LEDs at each DPDT location will be green for a straight through route and red for a divergent route regardless of the up or down position of the toggle on either DPDT.
I tested this arrangement on the workbench and it works just fine.
gregc maxman I believe that if a device like the NCE SwitchIt is used to throw the Tortise machines, they have a provision where a single normally open push button can be used to activate the Tortise. I see no reason why any number of normally open push buttons in parallel can't be used and eliminate all that relay stuff. so you'd replace a single relay with a circuit board? from Renegade
Yes, I would. I have DCC and I’m using the SwitchIt anyway. Plus it is something that I understand. Or maybe I should say I don’t need to understand it to get it to work.
in addition, time is money. I don’t have to build it.
Maxman,
Yes if you want/need DCC control as well, than the Switchit is a good way to go.
But, it is not that much, if any faster or easier to install/wire.
You will need just as many, or more, wires and connections between your Switchit and your various remote stations as I need with the relays. My relays then require just a few short jumper wires at the relay location.
So time wise, there will be little or no difference in the install.
Time is money, equipment price is money....
I also use the relays for signaling and power routing. Switchit does not help there.
richhotrain Dunno. I find all of this talk confusing, and unnecessary, about latching relays, relay coils, Switch-Its, and momentary pushbuttons. And, I suspect that the OP will too. Operating a Tortoise from two locations is no different in principle than a 3-way switch in household wiring to control a ceiling light from two locations. Being anal, I like all of my wall switches to be toggle (or rocker) down when OFF and up when ON. That's fine for single pole switches, but doesn't always apply to 3-way switches. If I turn the wall switch ON from one location and then OFF from the other location, one toggle will now be up and one toggle will be down. No problem with that because you can see if the ceiling light is ON or OFF. The same will be true on a layout if the protocol is, say, toggle down for a straight through route and toggle up for a divergent route. But, I agree that you may not be able to visually confirm the route, so you need indicator lights. Using the wiring diagram that I drew earlier, I have added bi-polar LEDs at each DPDT location and wired the LEDs to the power tabs on the Tortoise. The LEDs at each DPDT location will be green for a straight through route and red for a divergent route regardless of the up or down position of the toggle on either DPDT. I tested this arrangement on the workbench and it works just fine. Rich
Rich,
You are correct, your plan works fine, if you are ok with its limitations.
I really like the pushbutton, one button per "route", track diagram thing. It is much more user friendly for visiting operators. My layout will be designed to operate solo, or by a crew of 8-12.
Yeah, I guess that we need to hear back from the OP as to whether these turnouts are part of a ladder or route or just simply single turnouts to divergent tracks.
JPD
Ok, that helps a lot.
Yes, the push buttons eliminate the "out of alignment" issue. The push buttons can be in the track diagram to identify the route.
Using my relay circuit, or the latching relay circuit offered by others, you need only push the button and release it, the Tortoise will complete its cycle.
Some advantages and disadvantages to consider.
The latching relays will leave the turnouts in their last position during layout start up.
My relay circuit will return all turnouts to "normal" on layout start up. You pick.
Both can be used with lighted pushbuttons that can be in a track diagram, or with separate buttons and LED's.
Should you want more info on my circuit, such as how to wire a wye with only three buttons, let me know. Actually, I can post that drawing later when I get home.
JPD Rich, I appreciate the simplified drawing, especially with the bi-color LEDs added. (But are resisters really needed? I thought that was not necessary with tortoises and has not been a problem so far on the current setup.)
JPD What I do not know about momentary switches is if I have to hold the button down while the tortoise moves or if I only need push it, release it, and the tortoise will throw the turnout, which way would it work?
JPD The reason I am considering momentary switches is to avoid the problem of having toggles out of alignment. Up is normal and down is reverse on the layout. With momentary switches I believe there is no issue of the switches being out of alignment, correct?
I see I should have read the MRH link before responding as it makes clear the momentary switches must be pushed and held unless a latching or similar device is used.
JPD I see I should have read the MRH link before responding as it makes clear the momentary switches must be pushed and held unless a latching or similar device is used.
And yes, my relay circuit also includes a latching effect, so again, just push and release.
gregc so you'd replace a single relay with a circuit board?
No the circuit board does not replace the relay. I built a circuit board for the relay to attach to as well as a edge connector for the tortoise. It also has a set of screw terminals to make wiring everything super easy. I don't have a picture of said board at the moment.
This allows me to easily attach as many pushbutton as necessary to a single board. It is also setup to either allow LED's in Series with the tortoise but also provides a way to install LED's in parallel to the tortoise for position indication.
I'll see if I can post a picture of it when I get home. total cost of the board and components is about $7. The main reason I made this board was so that I could have all matching controls throughout the layout. I have all mainline turnouts on Stationary decoders (Digitrax DS-64's) but I also wanted my none mainline turnouts to have have matching controls (IE no toggle switches, just push buttons).
JPD I prefer to stick with toggle or move to momentary switches rather than use DCC to throw the turnouts. The reason I am considering momentary switches is to avoid the problem of having toggles out of alignment. Up is normal and down is reverse on the layout. With momentary switches I believe there is no issue of the switches being out of alignment, correct?