I'm just starting in model railroading having only created a N scale on a 4x8 back in the late 1980s. I'm right now constructing the benchwork for a 18'x24' E shaped (middle peninsula) double main track layout. No reverse loops, cross overs or wyes, except a wye for entering a yard as I couldn't get a regular turnout to work. I'm thinking about using Digitrax Command station (DCS 240), a second booster and I'm guessing PSX power managers so I can keep my buses to under 30' I've read various books and websites and of course I'm not totally clear on how the system should be hooked up. I'm going to use 14 gauge solid wire for the buses and probably 20 gauge solid for the feeders and solder the feeders every 6' and most if not all the rail joiners. Using Atlas code 83 for all track. There will be one small yard. I believe I understand that I have to have a LocoNet cable running from the command station to the booster and another for the cab bus. Not sure whether I have to also have a ground wire connection also to the booster as Wiring for DCC Alan Gartner website kind of indicated not to as this causes a loop since the LocoNet cable has a ground built in, but then he shows something else about cutting two of the wires in that LocoNet cable instead and running a ground??? He also mentions about not connecting your booster outputs together, but not sure what he is referring to. Also, I guess I can run the bus wires to the PSX device and run the bus wires from there to the individual power districts (gap'd) so that I can get by with only one extra booster. I'm also confused about the cab bus setup and whether or not I need to have UP5s connected to the main bus wires for each power district??? I may also use a IR panel/throttle too, as radio wouldn't work out since this system will be in a steel building.
Going to use Tortoise switch machines for all turnouts and I believe I can connect a wire to the turnout frogs from them to power them. My understanding is I can solder to a screw for the #6 turnout and directly to the #8 and curve turnouts and avoid having to purchase frog juicers also. Not sure what size wire should be used for this.
Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance!
Coastie71
You want to connect the ground (really a common) between the command station and booster with at least as heavy a wire as the bus. This is pretty important, as any slight voltage difference when crossing the gaps from a section powered by one to a section powered by the other needs a path, and without the heavy common, it uses the thin wire in the Loconet cable. Do NOT connect any of these to the easrth ground, such as the ground pin of an electrical outlet.
Do not connect the UP5's to the track power, if you ever intend on installing block detection. Depending on how many throttle you plan to use plugged in, you may want to supply aux power to the UP5 via the power socket on the side.
For frog power with the Tortoise contacts, the same #20 feeder wire is fine. The frog is small and can never have more than one loco on it at a time, so there will be no high current involved. You can use the sam colors as the feeders for the two bus lines, and green for the frog because, as Tony Koester says, frogs are green.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Coastie,
As a long-time Digitrax user with a similar-sized (HO) layout, I'll offer my opinions:
1) Use stranded instead of solid for your bus. MUCH easier to work with!
2) Consider 22 or even 24 gauge for your feeders (keep them short). Depending on how you solder them to your track, the smaller gauge will be less noticeable.
3) Unless you'll have a zillion sound-equipped N-scale locos running at the same time, you probably won't need a second booster.
4) Use one (or more) Digitrax BXP88(s) instead of the PSX. For roughly the same price as the PSX4 you'll get twice as many breaker sections, PLUS detection if you ever decide to add signals or automation, PLUS transponding. (Okay, very few folks use transponding so you'll probably just turn it off in the BXP88 anyway.)
5) Yes, you need the "ground" (it's actually a reference ground, not an earth ground) between the CS and the booster (if you need one - see #3). Do NOT depend on the LocoNet ground conductors to provide that function, as it must be able to carry the booster's entire output amperage.
6) Do NOT cut any of the LocoNet wires unless you FULLY understand the reason for doing so on YOUR layout. For the vast majority of layouts that's something that not only isn't needed or recommended, and it could cause other issues.
7) I recommend that you don't connect your UP5's to the power bus. Use a dedicated DC power supply in the side 2.1mm coaxial jack instead. I use a 15VDC regulated supply.
8) Use the same wire gauge for powering your frogs as for your other feeders.
Hey Coastie71,
A track plan would really help sorting out your questions.
My first question would be where would you place the command station? Using a track plan would determine the arrangement and length(s) of the buss(es). From that we (you) can determine whether a booster would be needed.
My second question would be how do you plan to power and control the Tortoises?
I agree about not connecting track power to the UP5s.
Good luck. We'll see how this thread progresses.
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
Randy, thanks again for responding to my questions. Based on your, Robert and Stevert's response I understand to use a ground 14 gauge wire from the CS to the booster or boosters and not cut anything on the LocoNet cable. I also think all of you are telling me not to connect the UP5s to the track bus and if needed to use a separte power supply to them if I will be leaving throttles connected. Will use the #20 feeder wire for the frog power as you indicate.
Thanks again for your help.
Gary
Stevert, thanks for responding to my questions. I agree the stranded wire is more flexible and was initially going to go that way until I read both Larry Puckett's and other book/websites that recommeded/used solid wire for bus and feeders (already bought the bus wire, just not the feeder wire yet). Everyone of these books/websites I read gave me either a 20-24 gauge range or 18 -22 range for feeders and kind-of-suggested soldering every track or 3' for the ligher gauge, so using this as weill as the limits on the suitcase connector wire sizes. I decided to go with the middle #20 on Puckett's range. Hopefully, this will not be an issue with soldering (soldering newbie).
I don't remember anyone of the books or website talking about the BXP88's and I just tried to read up on them and not clear how they are used as a power managers for setting up power districts or simply for allowing me to keep my track bus under 30'. I was going to use the PSX-4 (that was what they recommneded or the Digitrax PM42) to run the bus wire from the CS and booster to them and then from there in both directions on the double main lines of which there will be two sets in every location on the setup so that I don't exceed the 30'. Perhaps I should use the BXP88(s) instead, but not sure how this works and if it is more complicated I might have to go the other route (one of the reasons I made sure I didn't have reverse loops and other more complicated track arrangements).
As you suggest I will run a ground wire from the CS to the booster or boosters and not cut any wire on the LocoNet cable and not connect the UP5's to the power bus and use a 15VDC power supply instead. Will use the same wire gauge as the feeders for connecting the Tortoise to the frog.
Thanks again for all your help, I really appreciate it as this DCC stuff is making my head spin (don't remember my head spinning as much on the DC N scale in the 1980s)
I plan on having two passenger trains running in opposite directions on the main lines most of the time and moving a freight train or two out on these lines from the various industries/yard (perhaps one or two other people controlling trains).
Thanks again for all your help and maybe if you don't mind helping me better understand how to use the BXP88s in lieu of the PSX-4.
I think the only reason these sites recommend solid wire for the bus is because the love to use suitcase connectors, most of which only work with specific sizes of solid wire.
I hate them and will never use them. And it is infinitely easier to pull easily bendable strnaded wire in heavy gauges through the benchwork. Yes, everyone will say "But they use solid in house wiring" Yes, and it is a pain to feed through rafters and in and out of boxes.
My feeders are 20 or 22, I forget which, but it is a 2 conducotr loosly twisted wire sold as alarm wire. It pulls apart easily into two individual pieces and it matched the color of the bus wire. Seems small enough for HO. N scalers might want to use phone wire.
Robert, I used the Atlas track planning software to create the plan and exported it to a jpeg file, but being fairly new to the forum I don't know how to insert the file. Tried the insert image/video, but that didn't seem to work or actually was clueless on the process. I tried to figure out where I could place the command station without having another booster and just using power managers, but no matter what the buses would be much longer than 30' The track plan is E shapped(with middle peninsula), with 24' long representing the top and bottom of the E, middle peninsula 16' for the middle of the E and 18' from the top to the bottom of the main part of the E. The width of each section ranges from 3 1/2' along the top of the E 24' part, but at the ends 7 1/2 by 7' and 6 1/2' for the middle peninsula. The double main lines run along the top and bottom of the entire length of the track plan.
I haven't really researched in depth how I should power the Tortoise, perhaps using a DC power supply or maybe a stationary decoder?
As you and the others suggested I will not attach the UP5s to the track power.
Again, I want to thank you for your help and maybe help me on how to attach files or images as I'm not sure my explanation above of the track plan helps.
Randy, your obviously an old schooler and me being a soldering newbie, I already purchased the suitcase connectors. I think the last time I held a soldering iron was in 8th grade metal shop in the 60s. I hope this will allow me to connect my feeders more quickly and with less burns. Already having anxiety on the amount of soldering I need to do for the feeders, joiners, etc.
But like always appreciate your insight.
Coastie71 I don't remember anyone of the books or website talking about the BXP88's and I just tried to read up on them and not clear how they are used as a power managers for setting up power districts or simply for allowing me to keep my track bus under 30'.
I don't remember anyone of the books or website talking about the BXP88's and I just tried to read up on them and not clear how they are used as a power managers for setting up power districts or simply for allowing me to keep my track bus under 30'.
The BXP88 probably doesn't show up in those publications because it's is fairly new, and it's a Digitrax product as opposed to a "generic" power protection device.
But it's easy to wire: Rail A & B, and that common, from the CS/booster to the BXP88. Then a common Rail A from the BXP88's RAX terminal to all eight breaker/detection sections, and a separate Rail B from the each of the BXP88 outputs to each of the breaker/detection sections.
As for the 30-foot "rule" - Put your command station in the middle of the backbone of that "E"-shaped layout, fan everything out from there, and you should be fine.
Randy, I agree with you, but I've already committed and bought the wire and suitcase connectors. I'm also someone who last held a soldering iron I believe was in 7th or 8th grade machine shop. I'm already dreading the amount of soldering I need to do for feeders to track and joiners.
Thanks again for insight on the size of the feeders.
Coastie71My understanding is I can solder to a screw for the #6 turnout and directly to the #8 and curve turnouts and avoid having to purchase frog juicers also.
Solder the wire to a 1-72 brass screw not the screw to the turnout.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
rrinker And it is infinitely easier to pull easily bendable stranded wire in heavy gauges through the benchwork. Yes, everyone will say "But they use solid in house wiring" Yes, and it is a pain to feed through rafters and in and out of boxes.
And it is infinitely easier to pull easily bendable stranded wire in heavy gauges through the benchwork. Yes, everyone will say "But they use solid in house wiring" Yes, and it is a pain to feed through rafters and in and out of boxes.
Rich
Alton Junction
Stevert, thanks for the additional information on the BXP88. I read the instruction sheet for the BXP88 and the wiring diagram. I noted that the single RAX connection was used to connect to common rail A (one wire to rail A) and that the DS1-DS8 connections were used to connect to the 8 individual gap'd/isolated rail B connections (all of these I assume would actually be my bus wires). It shows only one rail A gap'd/isolated section of track at the beginning and end of the 8 rail B isolated sections. The diagram makes it look like each of these wires are attached to the rails versus acting as a bus wire. So then if these are individual bus wires, which I assume they would be based on length) I still need to keep the longest one 30' max, but if I only have one wire from the RAX connection as shown to rail A, how do I get 4 30' rail A and at least 4 30' rail B connections for setting up 4 30' long power districts like I would if I use the PSX-4. Do I splice in 4 or 8 wires to the single RAX connection wire? I need to have 4 30' or less buses from the booster/power manager devices for this to work on my layout. So if I'm using the BXP88 in lieu of the PSX-4 I don't understand how this would be possible with only one rail A wire connection.
This is why DCC is so confusing, at least to me, with these devices and there instructions/diagrams.
I did try to see if I could place the CS in the middle backbone of the E, but it would require bus lengths of greater than 30' and some close to 40' or more.
Again, I appreciate your help, but I think I'm going to have to buy a second booster and if I put the PSX-4 and booster/CS about half way down on the top and bottom of the E long side I'll be able to branch out 4 30' long buses and cover the 2 double main lines that run the entire length of the layout, as well as the small yard and hopefully spurs.
Henry, thanks for the information and I'll make sure I use that screw size and ensure its brass before I do this. Does the hole in the turnout accept the screw without having to tap the hole as I don't know how or have the equipment or feel that I can do that without damaging that part of the frog?
Thanks again and hope the screw is self tapping or the hole already has the threads.
Rich, I noted your response to rrinker. I believe you were just responding to the difficulty of running house wire, but are you kind of recommending/suggesting that the solid bus wires be in conduit for the model railroad or is that not really necessary or practical, especially because of the feeder connections every 6' feet or so?
Thanks, Gary
Coastie71 Rich, I noted your response to rrinker. I believe you were just responding to the difficulty of running house wire, but are you kind of recommending/suggesting that the solid bus wires be in conduit for the model railroad or is that not really necessary or practical, especially because of the feeder connections every 6' feet or so? Thanks, Gary
I would offer this thought though about bus wires. I have used 14 gauge solid copper wire on all my layouts with no difficulty whatsoever. I have never used stranded bus wire. In my opinion, use whatever you want for bus wire, solid or stranded.
Coastie71 Stevert, thanks for the additional information on the BXP88. I read the instruction sheet for the BXP88 and the wiring diagram. I noted that the single RAX connection was used to connect to common rail A (one wire to rail A) and that the DS1-DS8 connections were used to connect to the 8 individual gap'd/isolated rail B connections (all of these I assume would actually be my bus wires). It shows only one rail A gap'd/isolated section of track at the beginning and end of the 8 rail B isolated sections. The diagram makes it look like each of these wires are attached to the rails versus acting as a bus wire. So then if these are individual bus wires, which I assume they would be based on length) I still need to keep the longest one 30' max, but if I only have one wire from the RAX connection as shown to rail A, how do I get 4 30' rail A and at least 4 30' rail B connections for setting up 4 30' long power districts like I would if I use the PSX-4. Do I splice in 4 or 8 wires to the single RAX connection wire? I need to have 4 30' or less buses from the booster/power manager devices for this to work on my layout. So if I'm using the BXP88 in lieu of the PSX-4 I don't understand how this would be possible with only one rail A wire connection. This is why DCC is so confusing, at least to me, with these devices and there instructions/diagrams. I did try to see if I could place the CS in the middle backbone of the E, but it would require bus lengths of greater than 30' and some close to 40' or more. Again, I appreciate your help, but I think I'm going to have to buy a second booster and if I put the PSX-4 and booster/CS about half way down on the top and bottom of the E long side I'll be able to branch out 4 30' long buses and cover the 2 double main lines that run the entire length of the layout, as well as the small yard and hopefully spurs. Gary
Gary, you're over-thinking this.
First, the 30-foot "rule" is only a guideline. You mention a max of under 40 feet with the cs/booster centered. That length will most likely be fine.
As for the BXP88 wiring diagram, it's simplified so it just shows the basic concept. Yes, each power section will require an appropriate number of feeders from both it's Rail A and Rail B busses.
So the wiring isn't really any different than it would be with a PSX4, except you have one Rail A connection (RAX) at the BXP88 instead of four. A four-pole terminal strip takes care of that.
As another longtime Digitrax user (1996 is when I got my system) I have a few different viewpoints that other post.
The BXP88 is a replacement for BDL168 (block detection) and the PM42 (power management). It does the job of both of those devices. It also is now a solid state circuit breaker instead of a mechanical relay. This was/is one of the biggest complaints about the old PM42's. The mechanical relays tend to wear over time and they were not the world's most friendly when it came to sound locomotives.
It also limits your system to 3 amps per section. Granted if you are pulling 3 amps in a single section, I'd be worried.
As for my personal preference the PSX breakers are still my go-to item. They are very simple devices that serve their purpose. They do have other auxillary functions such as reporting block detection and/or auto turnout control but that is not what I bought them for. They handle sound locomotives like a champ and don't require any external connection other than track power to function.
From a troubleshooting standpoint, I am not a fan of single integrated devices that do everything. It alot like a multi-tool, they can do alot but only half as well. I prefer to use the right tool for the job.
Having never really been a fan of centralized block detection. I used a third-party solution. RR-cirkits has a block detection system (fully loconet compatible) that puts the detectors (current transformers) at the block they are to detect.
I have a full CTC signalling system on the layout with its all run from a Raspberry Pi. Even though RR-Cirkits has a signalling I used the Digitrax SE8c's for the signals. I really liked the plug and play nature. This is one piece of hardware that Digitrax did very well!
Again seperate devices will make troubleshooting much easier.
I use digitrax DS-64's for turnout control power by a seperate 12v accessory bus.
I use 14 gauge solidcore wire and find it much easier to wire than stranded. Mostly it stripping the insulation to add a feeder. I have the fancy stripper that splits the insulation and pushes it the sides but doesn't ever seem to come out as clean as using an exacto knife to remove the insulation. On stranded wire that means I would knick a stand or two. Even the wire stripper does that (yes I have tension correct) and it bugs me. My accessory bus wire is 18 gauge stranded wire and I wish I had used solid core on it, but I can argue with free wire! Solid core may be a bit more difficult to pull through benchwork depending on your mounting method. I use romex cable staples and have little issue getting wires in. I also like that with solid core wire I can bend it in a look and hook it up directly to a terminal block, no extra crimps needed.
I solder all feeder connections. I have never been a fan of suitcase connectors but that is all personal preference.
Lastly I use solid core 22-24 gauge for feeders on every section of flex track and every turnout (mainline turnouts are all isolated for the block detection).
Colorado Front Range Railroad: http://www.coloradofrontrangerr.com/
My Ideal Stripmaster works perfectly every time with stranded wire. But since the OP has already purchased solid, solid it is in this case.
I'm not a particular fan of centralized block detection either - nor am I a fan of diode drop type detectors that cause a voltage drop to each block. The transformer type detectors don't cause a drop, plus you don't need multiple long bus lines running from the central detector. Granted, you still have multipel lines, one from each section of the circuit breaker, but typically you have more detection sections than you do power districts.
I use solid for feeders - because with solid there's no chance of a stray strand at the track getting caught somewhere and causing a short. Plus solid is easier to fish down a hole drilled in the benchwork. And holds its shape while being soldered to the rail.
Rich, thanks. That's what I thought that you were not talking about model train layouts. I think I'm going to be glad that I went with the solid especially with the suitcase connector method versus soldering.
Thanks again.
Stevert, your right I have a tendency to over think everything. I'm just intimidated by the complexity of DCC and I would have never have thought that I could use terminal strips. I look at some of the wiring shown in the books and websites I've reviewed and these multiple wires going from various devices to large and small terminal strips and it just becomes hard to understand what it is doing and what its trying to accomplish. It's like reading Larry Puckett's DCC corner explanations of these and other devices and I end up rereading them over and over and many times not understanding exactly what he's saying.
I think for any newbie to DCC it really is not easily understandable and for most people who have been around DCC for years its like second nature.
Thanks again for claryifying and for all your help.
Renegade, thanks for your information. I did look at the DS64, but not the SE8 for turnout control. I think I was tending to go with the DS64, but then I saw this NCE Switch8 that talks about controlling 8 switches (I think the SE8 also does 8 and DS64 four if I'm not mistaken) and that it had this optional circuit board "Button Board" for adding push button control. I was thinking having push button control as well as control through the throttle would be helpful. My only concern is I never know whether I should stick with Digitrax only devices as much as possible to eliminate compatibility problems or if its OK to use others (like the PSX-4 instead of the BXP88).
I'm starting to get a little worried now that I might have bought the wrong size wire for my feeders as your and others input have mentioned you use 22-24. I hope I can use the over $100 of 20 guage solid I bought (in shipment) without having problems with soldering to the code 83 rails. I finally received all my track I ordered and wow not much room in the rail for the wire.
As far as block detection, signaling and accessory bus, I haven't given this much thought as I just want to get the trains up and running as simple as possible. Maybe down the road I'll want to do this, but I figure this project is going to take me a few years (especially with scenery, buildings, etc.).
Thanks again for your insight and help.
Randy, I bought a wire stripper and it has a range of 10-20 gauge wire nicely numbered/slotted for solid and strand and used it just to see how it would strip the 14 gauge solid and for the first time in my life I was able to get a clean and easy strip. Wish I had one of these when I was rewiring an extension cord I cut with my hedge trimmer.
This is what I'm saying about having a hard time understanding DCC. Your comment about diode drop and transformer type detectors is like Greek to me, but I know you were really talking to the other guys who have been around DCC for years.
Again, thanks again always for your help.
The #20 is fine for feeders.
The DS64 also has connections for pushbuttons - bonus is unlike non-Loconet devices, it actually reports back the change when you use the buttons. I really am not a fan of operating turnouts from the throttle - no brand of DCC system makes this particularly conveninet, you always have to switch to some sort of 'accessory' or 'switch' mode, select the address, set the position, then switch back to train control to resume control of your loco. So buttons along the fascia are an absolute requirement for me.
I used servos on my last layout, and will use them again on this one. I used Tam Valley's servo controllers, which have buttons and LEDs plus, depending on which one you get, are also DCC decoders so they can be controlled from a throttle or JMRI.
Layout before that, I did have some NCE Switch-Its, that's a 2 turnout version of the Switch-8, which wasn;t available back then. I'm not a fan of running long wires everywhere, so controlling 2 at a time per board was just about perfect. For a yard or an area with a concentration of turnouts, the Switch-8 is more economical, but at a crossover somewhere in the middle of the main, having 8 when you only need 2 (and really only 1 - a single output on these can drive 2 Tortoises, or you can use linkage so only one Tortoise is needed to operate both turnouts of a crossover) might mean running long wires to reach another 6 switch motors.
One thing I noticed about the Switch-It, the drive voltage is a lottle low. Tortoises are specced to use 12V, but they are a bit noisy at 12V, closer to 9V seems to be a sweet spot. This is perfect - you can wire LEDs in series with the motor wires to give position indication, no resistors are needed, and the voltage to the Tortise ends up being 9-10 volts if the supply is 12V. On the Switch-It, it' already driving with a reduced voltage, so putting the LEDs in series witht he motor made them a bit too slow. But a DS64 may have the same issue - I think they work fine with one set of LEDs though.
What I mean about reporting back (this applies pretty much only to Digitrax systems) - if you use your throttle and select switch 1234, and set it to thrown, next time you select switch 1234 on your throttle (or any other throttle), it will show in the Thrown state, until someone set it to Closed. If the controlling device is a DS64, and you have pushbuttons wired to it, if at some point you push the button for Closed for switch 1234, then bring it up on your throttle, the same throttle you used to set it to Thrown previously, it will now show Closed. That's all because of Loconet - same thing would happen on a JMRI panel. If you cnage the turnout from JMRI, from a throttle, or from local buttons on the DS64, it all reflects across anything connected to Loconet. Most other systems require some sort of feedback board wired to their cab bus, and then connected to switch machine contacts, in order to report back the true status. Settings from a cab might be remembered, but buttons connected to the controller will not update the status without an extra feedback board.
Randy, thanks again for your insight. I think your kind of hinting to go with the DS64 and perhaps that's what I should do. Not sure about everything your saying, I tried reading up on the DS64 and I see where you connect for the push buttons, but not sure about LEDs. I noted that all return wires for the push buttons go the the +COM single connection (do four #20 or much smaller wires fit into this connection?) Are these LEDS separate connections from the push buttons on the DS64 or are they wired to the Tortoise or does the push button have a built in LED?
My layout will have 23 turnouts (one being a WYE turnout, but not used as true WYE setup). Most of course are at both ends of the small yard or leading to the yard or really its more like 3 and 2 sidings off the main tracks. Do you use the #20 wire to connect the Tortoise to the DS64 and to the push buttons?
I'm not sure about computer hookup and JMRI use. I probably will not have wifi in the steel building thats about 30' from the house, so I'm not sure about using a computer, other than to update firmware.
I think the main point your making is the LocoNet connection on the DS64 gives me feedback that I wouldn't get with the Switch 8 without additional hardware.
Thanks again, you've really helped alot.
Coastie71 Randy, thanks again for your insight. I think your kind of hinting to go with the DS64 and perhaps that's what I should do. Not sure about everything your saying, I tried reading up on the DS64 and I see where you connect for the push buttons, but not sure about LEDs. I noted that all return wires for the push buttons go the the +COM single connection (do four #20 or much smaller wires fit into this connection?) Are these LEDS separate connections from the push buttons on the DS64 or are they wired to the Tortoise or does the push button have a built in LED? My layout will have 23 turnouts (one being a WYE turnout, but not used as true WYE setup). Most of course are at both ends of the small yard or leading to the yard or really its more like 3 and 2 sidings off the main tracks. Do you use the #20 wire to connect the Tortoise to the DS64 and to the push buttons? I'm not sure about computer hookup and JMRI use. I probably will not have wifi in the steel building thats about 30' from the house, so I'm not sure about using a computer, other than to update firmware. I think the main point your making is the LocoNet connection on the DS64 gives me feedback that I wouldn't get with the Switch 8 without additional hardware. Thanks again, you've really helped alot. Gary
The DS-64's do not a have seperate output for LED's. What I do is wire a set in series with the Tortoise. The tortoise motor acts as the resistor. You can use two back to back (parallel but opposite) or a bipolar (two-lead) LED in series with the tortoise. This is a quick way of showing turnout direction. The other option is to use the contacts on the Tortoise switch machine to show turnout position but that is a lot of extra wiring.
Here is my wiring diagram.
I ended making a little protoboard daughter card that have next to each DS-64 to make it easy to put the Panel LED's in series. It also makes it easy to flip the wires if the LED's report the status wrong on the first hook up. It consists of 3 screw terminal per tortoise. One is from the output of the DS-64, one is for the panel LED's and one is to the tortoise connections.
As Randy pointed out feedback is important if you are wanting to every do a signal system. Even if you don't use it right away, its a nice to have item in the future if you do ever decide you want to have a dispatchers panel (or feedback to a remote location)
To answer you questions about how to hook up the +com connection. I usually have 4 push buttons per panel. One terminal of each push button is hooked up to a single wire that is connected to the +COM connection on the DS-64. The other terminal is hooked up to the respective inputs on the DS-64. That would be 5 wires in total.
As for gauge of wire, I use CAT5 network cable (~24-26 gauge wire) for all my tortoise and panel connections. They are nice twisted pair and the tortoise don't draw more than about 25mA.
Also if you do get the DS-64's I highly recommend powering them from an external power source and not from DCC. One, it is a waste of DCC power (most expensive power on the layout) and two there is a long known history of the DS-64's programming going wonky (ie too many shorts, it loses its programming) when hooked up to DCC power. Also if don't have them on a seperate bus than track power, if you ever short at a turnout, it kills power and you can't throw the turnout to clear the short.
Last thing is that the DS-64's are shipped defaulted to run solenoid type switch machines. They run stall motors well but you have to change a CV to do that.
JMRI has so many uses other than WiThrottle. It is very beneficial program and makes programming locos really easy.
Renegade, wow, I really appreciate your diagram and detailed explanation. I can see that DS64 is the way to go, especially as you indicate for future signaling. As a non-experienced DCC and not very electrical knowledgeable person, if the protoboard daughter is not something that I can find already made for this purpose, I'm not really sure if I can attempt this hookup. Also, I really don't understand your "K" and arrow electrical symbols on the control panel. I assume these are your LEDs, but not sure how I connect these and really don't understand your statement to use "two back to back (parallel but opposite or a bipolor (two lead) LED. I assume that one of the K symbols represents a second LED parallel so that depending upon which way the switch motor is thrown one light would represent open and the other closed. My experience with LEDs is XMAS string lights, but not how to wire them.
I assume that if I don't use the LEDs, that I can wire the push buttons, Tortoise and DS64 without the protoboard, but I can see how the LEDs would be really helpful to avoid turnout shorts and derailments.
I'm also a soldering newbie, so I assume the wire connections to the push buttons have to be soldered and I assume the LEDs also. This is the area I'm most dreading, as every type of device I'm hoping to use will have screw connections. One of the reasons I'm definetely going to use the snap or other type connector for the Tortoise so I don't have to solder directly to the device.
Again, I really appreciate your help!
DS64 has screw terminals, but you will have to solder something. You don;t NEED a custom board sitting in the middle - the wires from the buttons go to screw terminals on the DS64, and for the LEDs, the wire runs from the screw terminal of the DS64, but then has to be soldered to the LEDs, and another wire soldered to the opposite terminal of the LEDs, which then goes to the screw terminal of the Tortoise connector. The second wire to the Tortoise goes between the Tortoise and the DS64.
Thoise are's K's, they are a text way od drawing the symbol for an LED. LEDs and regular diodes only allow current to flow in one direction. The easy way to remember it is that it goes from positive to negative, and the 'arrow' in the symbol shows you which way. The Tortoise works be reversing the polairty of the DC power to make the machine move one wya or the other. So with two LEDs connected together but opposite as shown, one will light up when the Tortoise moves one way, the other will light up when the Tortoise moves the other way.
Coastie71 Renegade, wow, I really appreciate your diagram and detailed explanation. I can see that DS64 is the way to go, especially as you indicate for future signaling. As a non-experienced DCC and not very electrical knowledgeable person, if the protoboard daughter is not something that I can find already made for this purpose, I'm not really sure if I can attempt this hookup. Also, I really don't understand your "K" and arrow electrical symbols on the control panel. I assume these are your LEDs, but not sure how I connect these and really don't understand your statement to use "two back to back (parallel but opposite or a bipolor (two lead) LED. I assume that one of the K symbols represents a second LED parallel so that depending upon which way the switch motor is thrown one light would represent open and the other closed. My experience with LEDs is XMAS string lights, but not how to wire them. I assume that if I don't use the LEDs, that I can wire the push buttons, Tortoise and DS64 without the protoboard, but I can see how the LEDs would be really helpful to avoid turnout shorts and derailments. I'm also a soldering newbie, so I assume the wire connections to the push buttons have to be soldered and I assume the LEDs also. This is the area I'm most dreading, as every type of device I'm hoping to use will have screw connections. One of the reasons I'm definetely going to use the snap or other type connector for the Tortoise so I don't have to solder directly to the device. Again, I really appreciate your help! Thanks, Gary
Good Morning Gary,
you are correc that the K symbols are the LEDs. A Light Emitting Diode is symbolized by that K letter and a circle around with arrows coming off of it to show it emits light. A regular diode doesn't have the arrows or the circle
An LED has two leads, a short one and a long one. IF you take two LEDs and connect the short leg of one LED to the long leg of the other LED and do the same for the other two legs this is what I mean by making them in parallel and back to back. you should now have two connections. This is put in series with the tortoise.
Here is basic diagram (S)= short leg of LED, (L)= long leg of LED where SL on the left side are connected together and LS on the right side are connected together.
DS-64(Output X)--< S)LED(L) > -->Tortiose--> DS-64(Output X)
(L)LED (S)
For a Bipolar LED it is even easier. the above is setup is built into a single LED so all you have to do is put in series with the tortoise and you are good to go. you might have flip the two leads to get the colors to match what the switch does.
The daugther board was just to make it easier to change things. I made them at home from protoboard and wire and screw terminals. they are not a necessary component to hooking up LED's in series. I just wanted them because it allowed me to install the tortoises and control panels seperately.
As for soldering, my suggestion is to get a decent unit. I'm not sure what your budget is but a decent one can be had for around $100. This is the one I use: Hakko soldering station. It has been worth every penny. it temperature controlled and has different size tips to match the job you are working on. The other key component is good solder. I recommend a 60/40 blend of rosin core 0.032" dia. solder. Rosin core is nice because it has some flux built in. may want to get some additional flux for more stubborn connections. DO NOT GET ACID FLUX for electronics work.
I can't stress this enough though, make sure the connections you are soldering are clean, either with a mechanical device (wire brush) or wiping it down with rubbing alcohol first. It will greatly improve your soldering skills.
Last thing, Get some protoboard and some wire and just practice on it. Protoboards are super cheap (<$1) and it doesn't hurt anything if it getsmessed up.
I hope this helps clear things up and PM me if you have any questions about any of this.