I want to run a PSX-AR with the Kato 20-210 Double Crossover and need some advice on how to wire this and get it set up.
I have a small DCC n scale layout that I'm building on a door (32"X80") with an NCE Power Cab controler. In essence, what I will have is two loops connected by the double crossover. So this isn't the typical reversing loop that I've seen wiring diagrams for in that, depending on how the switch is thrown, it may reverse or it may not.
I was given the following advice but I'm not sure I trust the source, so I'm looking for some confirmation.
I was told to;
Isolate the double crossover at all four points of entry. This is done.
Run feeders to the double crossover at all four points of entry, inside the insulated connections, from the PSX-AR output, ensuring that polarity is maintained at all points. So, what I've done is brought all four negative feeder wires to a connector at a terminal block, and all four positive feeder wires to different connector on the same terminal block, then taken a wire from each of those connections to the output of the PSX-AR.
Run feeders to either side of the double crossover to power the two loops, ensuring that polarity is maintained at those points. This is done.
And this is where things rest for the moment before I put power to it from my Power Cab, because it just feels like there's something being missed. I think my concern and confusion is the result of some things I've read and videos I've seen regarding the Kato Double Crossover. I get the impression that this is a weird little device and it's got me concerned about running my one and only (and expensive) locomotive through this switch.
So, any help would be greatly appreciated!!
to the forum. Your post was trapped in moderation, which goes away after a few posts.
I am not a double crossover specialist, but as I understand it, that is your reversing section. If that is true, a modest length train would be on either side of the crossover and violates the guideline that the reversing section should be longer than your longest train.
In theory the front wheels of the loco could trip the AR as it left the crossover, while wheels of a car further back would re-trip the AR while the engine was straddling the reversing and normal section.
I don't know Kato and what makes their double crossover different. Don't redo any wiring to my theory is confirmed or shot down.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Further research on the Kato: The outside rails are contiguous, meaning you only need 2 feeders there. It is not power routing, so you need 4 inside feeders.
The way I have seen it done is that there is an AR for each of the loops after the double crossover.
That way you have plenty of track for your longest train.
BigDaddy The way I have seen it done is that there is an AR for each of the loops after the double crossover.
Rich
Alton Junction
Thank you Henry!! It's good to be here!
Yeah... I was aware it might take 24 hrs. to get it posted... no worries. I have nowhere to get to and all day to get there... lol!
Yes, the double crossover would be too short given the rules of engagement, but I can extend the two sections of track that the double crossover lies between to a length that is greater than my longest train.
I tried this with an On Guard Auto Reverser and just my locomotive to keep the train length within the length of the crossover. The result was less than encouraging... there was a great deal of delay and lag time as the loco was waiting for the polarity to reverse, or so it seemed. And I think that was because of how the crossover was thrown as the loco entered the crossover, and what the polarity needs were at that point, whether reversing it was required or not, and what the polarity needs were when it exited the crossover, and whether it needed to be reversed again. My hope was that the PSX-AR would respond quicker than the OG-AR and the lag could be resolved.
I spoke to a tech at Tony's Trains and he recommended the same thing, AR's on the loops, but I was hoping that there might be a way with the one PSX-AR that I have before buying another. I'm not opposed to buying another, I just want to make sure I've explored all of my options before doing so.
How can I post a jpeg of my layout so you guys can see what my intent is? Because, it just doesn't feel like putting AR's on the loops to either side of the crossover addresses all the possibilities.
Thanks!
Thank you Rich! It appears that this is the answer, but I'd like to post a jpeg of my layout so you and Henry can see what I've got as there are turnouts, sidings, and a small yard that will be part of one of these loops. And I have some questions about those features if they're part of one of the two reversing loops.
Can you tell me how to post that pic? I asked Henry too... I just don't know who will see this firt.
Thanks in advance!George
No picture, but it sounds like a dog bone shape with a crossover in the middle. In that case, previous advice is correct, isolate each end loop, so you need two autoreversers, and then you can have as many crossovers in the shank part of the bone as you want with no additional reversers needed.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I've been informed that it's a 'folded dog-bone'...
Thank you for advice, it's consistent with everything else I've been told.
George
rrinker No picture, but it sounds like a dog bone shape with a crossover in the middle. In that case, previous advice is correct, isolate each end loop, so you need two autoreversers, and then you can have as many crossovers in the shank part of the bone as you want with no additional reversers needed. --Randy
I was hoping to follow-up with you on something you said in your previous re: having as many crossovers in the shank as I want without the need for more reversers.
I reached out to Tony's Trains for some advice on another topic, but what I got back included a recomendation to create each of these reversing loops outside of, or to either end of, a series of turnouts, sidings, and a small yard, that exist in the layout.
So, in one configuration, the shank of the dog bone would contain all of these turnouts with loops at either end, but in another configuration the turnouts, sidings and yard would be contained within one of the reversing loops.
If I want to run other locomotives, like a switch engine in my yard for example, is having those features included in the reversing loop going to create a problem for me? Or should I, as the rep from Tony's recommended, create my loops to either end of a much longer shank that contains those features?
Thanks in advance!G
Can you maybe draw out what you are thinking? Even scribbling it on a piece of paper and taking a picture with a phone would be better than nothing. It sounds like the basic idea is something like this post from almost 6 years ago:
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/238329.aspx
15th post, first picture with the basic folded dog bone. I can't directly post the picture as it comes from that user's imgur account. My plan is similar except is stretches out over my entire basement and since I haven't drawn the track plan for the upper level yet, there's only one loop showing so it isn't particularly helpful.
In my plan, the loops on the ends will be hidden track, and will consist of multiple concentric tracks that serve as my staging. I haven't come up with a good reason NOT to just run it all off the reverser.
If instead of concentric loops for staging, this was visible track and I had sidings in here - I'm not quite getting the visual of sidings or a yard with the base turnout as part of the loop itself, as this would seem to severely limit the length of track. It still should be OK to have these tracks included as part of the reversing section - a loco switching these tracks will keep right on moving when another train enters the loop and triggers the AR.
It would seem to me that the better use of the open space inside the loop would be to have the turnouts on the shank with the tracks extending into the open middle of the loop. Extreme example, if the loop were really wide, would be a complete industrial park with sidings all over the place filling the middle of the loop. Second example would be if the engine facility, turntable, and roundhouse were inside the loop. Connections to the layout would be on the chank, the loop track would be nothing but the loop track and be insulated at both ends where it joins the shank and made the reversing section.
The second picture of the 15th post in the thread I linked - maybe that's what you had in mind. I see on the right side he has a runaround, the food processor, paper mill, and Acme Products all coming off the loop. Depending on train lengths being run, on this plan I would probably make the one reversing section start on the red track (when you look at this thread, the tracks are color coded) right below where the lower left turnout for the runaround is, up to the point end of the upper right turnout for the runaround(on the red track just above where the label is for the food processor industry).
The other loop on this plan is coded with light blue. There is a yard lead in dark blue coming off the loop, and a passing siding across the bottom as part of the light blue loop. For this one, I would put the gaps just to the left of the turnout that connects the dark blue lead, down to the right hand turnout for the light blue passing siding (so the turnout and the passing siding are all part of the AR section, but NOT the light blue turnout that diverges to the other end of the dark blue yard area).
Should be a starting point, adjust from there is necessary.
Hi Randy,
This is what I've got...
The idea being that the Red and Magenta sections are my reversing loops, keeping all of the turnouts in the shank.
But, the shank could also just be the double-crossover with reversing loops at either end of it. Then I'd have the Red reversing zone without any turnouts in it, and the Magenta zone would extend all the way to the other end of the double-crossover and include all of the turnouts.
The question that I'm not clear on is, if I'm running a second loco in the small switch yard at the bottom, should the reversing loops be configured as in the drawing, or with the shank of the dogbone being just the double-switch?
Or, does it matter?
I should probably also include this; all of my turnouts are non-power routing, but I am prepared to send feeders to each spur or siding as necessary. Which may create an issue I'm not considering with one or the other of these possible layout questions re: the reversing loops.
https://imgur.com/ZBG26KR
For your reversers, keep the turnouts out of the isolated section.
On the magenta line: gap on the straight side of the turnout at the bottom, and gap just before the points of the turnout at the top.
On the red line, gap just past the double crossover on both tracks, where you have the red change to green.
For the rest of the doube track area, you just have to be careful to connect the proper bus lines. If you look at the bottom left, just before they split to go to the magenta loop, if the rail of the upper track closest to the top is your red feeder, then the rail at the top of the lower track is also red. That's what allows you to have as many crossovers int he shank of the bone as you want without creating more reversing sections - the rails that connect with a crossover all have the same polarity.
Randy,
Okay... if I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying to isolate the red and magenta lines as indicated in the attached... and apply power to them via my two PSX-AR's inside of their respective gapped sections. Then, apply power to the green line via my PSX1 circuit-breaker.
This puts all of the turnouts in the shank, and none in either of the reversing loops.
https://i.imgur.com/ANSXdF7.jpg
This has all been done per what you've said... assuming that I'm understanding you correctly.
Furthermore, I have the polarity issues resolved for the rest of the entire layout; my white feeders are all on a particular rail, as are all of my black feeders. I have feeders already installed for all of the sidings and spurs, though they won't get connected to power until I get the reversing loops working properly.
So, with my non power-routing turnouts, if I engage them in certain ways power is interrupted to certain areas of the layout, but so long as they are all thrown for operation on the main-line, it's powered and I have voltage at all points along it, regardless of how the double-crossover is thrown and to either side of the gaps I've installed for the reversing loops.
Once I get the feeders for the spurs and sidings on the green line connected to power, I should have uninterrupted power with the proper polarity to all points of the green line no matter how the various turnouts are thrown.
So, first... if you can... let's confirm that I understand you correctly and that what I've done is consistent with what you instructed.
Then, I have one other question...
The instructions in the PSX-AR manual indicate that the gaps in the rails for the reversing loops should be staggered approximately 3/4 of an inch so the wheels of the locomotive cross the gaps one side at a time, instead of both the left and right wheels crossing the gap simultaneously. I'm using insulated rail joiners that are perfectly adjacent to one another between two lengths of track which provides no stagger at all...
How critical is this staggering to the operation of the AR's and should I reconsider the use of the insulated rail joiners and cut the rails to acheive this stagger instead? Or, should I see if there are any problems with the operation of the AR's as I have it set up before taking that step?
Thank you in advance Randy!
BigDaddy
It is because of the crossover in the shank. This is just a dog bone twisted around - in a dog bone, the easiest way to do things is make the end loops the reversing sections, then there can be as many crossovers between mains as you want with no additional reverse sections introduced. Take out the double crossover and there are no reverse sections at all.
PapaG Randy, Okay... if I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying to isolate the red and magenta lines as indicated in the attached... and apply power to them via my two PSX-AR's inside of their respective gapped sections. Then, apply power to the green line via my PSX1 circuit-breaker. This puts all of the turnouts in the shank, and none in either of the reversing loops. https://i.imgur.com/ANSXdF7.jpg This has all been done per what you've said... assuming that I'm understanding you correctly. Furthermore, I have the polarity issues resolved for the rest of the entire layout; my white feeders are all on a particular rail, as are all of my black feeders. I have feeders already installed for all of the sidings and spurs, though they won't get connected to power until I get the reversing loops working properly. So, with my non power-routing turnouts, if I engage them in certain ways power is interrupted to certain areas of the layout, but so long as they are all thrown for operation on the main-line, it's powered and I have voltage at all points along it, regardless of how the double-crossover is thrown and to either side of the gaps I've installed for the reversing loops. Once I get the feeders for the spurs and sidings on the green line connected to power, I should have uninterrupted power with the proper polarity to all points of the green line no matter how the various turnouts are thrown. So, first... if you can... let's confirm that I understand you correctly and that what I've done is consistent with what you instructed. Then, I have one other question... The instructions in the PSX-AR manual indicate that the gaps in the rails for the reversing loops should be staggered approximately 3/4 of an inch so the wheels of the locomotive cross the gaps one side at a time, instead of both the left and right wheels crossing the gap simultaneously. I'm using insulated rail joiners that are perfectly adjacent to one another between two lengths of track which provides no stagger at all... How critical is this staggering to the operation of the AR's and should I reconsider the use of the insulated rail joiners and cut the rails to acheive this stagger instead? Or, should I see if there are any problems with the operation of the AR's as I have it set up before taking that step? Thank you in advance Randy! George
I don't think the staggered gaps matter. Unless you are measuring and cutting with precision instruments, they're staggered anyway. Even if you just stuck plastic joiners on the rails.
It sounds like you are saying there is power loss after what is supposed to be a non power routing turnout when it is flipped a certain way. That shouldn't happen if they are set to not be power routing - switching off the opposite route is a feature of a power routing turnout. I've never used Kato track, but I think at least the HO turnouts are selectable to be power routing or not.
On one hand, having the power cut off on a siding when you switch back to the main might be good, even with DCC. You won't be able to accidently select the wrong loco and derail it or crash into a bumper. But at the same time, on a passing siding you want the waiting train to sit there and idle (if it has sound) while the other passes on the main, not suddenly just go dead.
rrinker It is because of the crossover in the shank. This is just a dog bone twisted around - in a dog bone, the easiest way to do things is make the end loops the reversing sections, then there can be as many crossovers between mains as you want with no additional reverse sections introduced. Take out the double crossover and there are no reverse sections at all.
It is - trace around the red loop again and go through the crossover - you are back on the same track you came in on, going the opposite way. BOTH ends are reverse loops because of that crossover. Might be easier to imagine the crossover more in the middle of the green section instead of close to the red loop.
You can wire the green section out of phase, and make the crossover the reverse section, but that's too short to be useful.
Yep, I see that now. That crossover is close enough to the red loop that any length train will create a short as it crosses over the DCO.
It's interesting because a casual glance at the drawing does not appear to create an issue with reverse polarity.
Gotta be able to simplify in your head, my friend. What is a dog bone but an oval with 2 sides squiched together, right? And an oval with a diagonal from one side to the other is a reverse loop, right? But just one - depending on the diagonal, with just one of them, you can go from clockwise to counterclockwise around the loop, but not back the other way. To get back the other way, you need another diagonal the opposite way of the first one. Now you have an oval with an X in the middle. 2 reverse sections. Squish it down, now you have a dog bone with a double crossover. On the oval, you'd make the diagonals the reversing section, but the short bits of rail to make the crossover are too short to be effective, you'd have equipment entering and leaving such a reverse section at the same time. So you change the 'squished together' part to have matching phase so a crossover connecting them is no longer a short, but that now makes the two end loops a short, because it would connect the top rail of the upper track to the bottom rail of the lower track. Same at both ends. So you isolate the ends and make then reversing sections, and then it doesn't matter if you have one double, two double srossovers, one double and two singles, or whatever you want in the main lines without creating any additional reverse sections.
It may make more sense when the double track part is much longer, like mine stretching around my whole basement. The loops ont he end will be reversing sections. Along the main, there are at least 2 sets of crossovers on the lower level - one on either side of the branch connection, and one on either side of the main yard. And one more where the long branch connects back in just before the helix - so a train returning on that branch can cross over to the proper main. Then up the helix, and a few more crossovers on the upper deck before reaching the other end loop, which will be the second reverse section.
rrinker Gotta be able to simplify in your head, my friend. What is a dog bone but an oval with 2 sides squiched together, right?
Gotta be able to simplify in your head, my friend. What is a dog bone but an oval with 2 sides squiched together, right?
This morning, I woke up way too soon and glanced at this thread while the coffee was still brewing and asked myself, where is the reverse loop? I must have been thinking about my continuous loop double mainline with double crossovers between the inner and outer mainlines. No reverse loops there.
If I would have looked closer at the OP's plan, I would have realized that it was not a double mainline at the point of the double crossover but rather a single mainline track returning in the opposite direction.
My bad.
rrinker It sounds like you are saying there is power loss after what is supposed to be a non power routing turnout when it is flipped a certain way. That shouldn't happen if they are set to not be power routing - switching off the opposite route is a feature of a power routing turnout. I've never used Kato track, but I think at least the HO turnouts are selectable to be power routing or not.
That's interesting, because that's not how it was explained to me by the guys at my local shop.
What I have is this; on the Green line, in the center of the layout where the main, the passing siding, and the spur run at a diagonal from the upper left to the lower right, if I switch the turnout for the spur, the power goes to the spur, but power is then interrupted on the main.
Now, I don't currenlty have two locomotives, so I haven't been able to confirm if my switching the turnouts for the passing siding have the same effect for that section of the main between the two turnouts that comprise the passing siding, but I'll check that with my multimeter to see what I get.
Maybe I used the wrong terminology re: the Kato turnouts... I'll have to research that too. I wouldn't be surprised if the newbie got it wrong ;) What I do know is that the power routing operation of the #6 N guage turnout is not selectable.
rrinkerIt sounds like you are saying there is power loss after what is supposed to be a non power routing turnout when it is flipped a certain way. That shouldn't happen if they are set to not be power routing - switching off the opposite route is a feature of a power routing turnout. I've never used Kato track, but I think at least the HO turnouts are selectable to be power routing or not.
After reading Allan Gartner's "Wiring for DCC" article on the Kato #6 N Guage turnout, I believe that I did inadvertently use the wrong terminology. If I'm understanding Gartner's info correctly, that #6 turnout IS power routing... and all of my turnout's are #6's.
So, that is in line with what I experience when I throw certain turnouts in certain directions and have power interrupted to other areas of the layout. I wish these manufacturers would do a better job of spec'ing out their product on line. The Kato website is a virtual wasteland where it comes to product specs...
For instance, I'd like to eliminate the blue Kato automatic turnout control switches and replace them with DPDT switches, but I have no idea what the voltage/amperage requirements are for the power supply I'd need, and that information seems harder to come by than it ought to be.
Thank you for bringing that to my attention though... I feel just a little smarter every day, lol!
If what is shown on the Wiring for DCC site is correct, if you don't want the power to be cut off, you can modify them as mentioned in the text and then add feeders to the frog side rails.
It doesn't help that one size Kato turnout works one way, and another size works a different way - and that they flip-flopped it HO to N - so an HO #4 and N #6 work the same way, and the HO #6 and N #4 work the same way. Would be nice if they just made them all the same, or made them all with the screw to allow you to set it how you wanted.
The control toggles need to be momentary. Kato turnouts work by switching the polarity of a single electromagnet, compared to say Atlas which has 2 different coils and the point position is controlled by which coil you energize. With Kato, if you make the 2 wires going to the turnout + and -, it will move one way, and if you make it - and +, it will move the other way. So what you need are DPDT momentary toggles. Often indicated as (ON)-OFF-(ON) (a non-momentary toggle, like you would use for a Tortoise motor, is ON-OFF-ON).
rrinker If what is shown on the Wiring for DCC site is correct, if you don't want the power to be cut off, you can modify them as mentioned in the text and then add feeders to the frog side rails. It doesn't help that one size Kato turnout works one way, and another size works a different way - and that they flip-flopped it HO to N - so an HO #4 and N #6 work the same way, and the HO #6 and N #4 work the same way. Would be nice if they just made them all the same, or made them all with the screw to allow you to set it how you wanted. The control toggles need to be momentary. Kato turnouts work by switching the polarity of a single electromagnet, compared to say Atlas which has 2 different coils and the point position is controlled by which coil you energize. With Kato, if you make the 2 wires going to the turnout + and -, it will move one way, and if you make it - and +, it will move the other way. So what you need are DPDT momentary toggles. Often indicated as (ON)-OFF-(ON) (a non-momentary toggle, like you would use for a Tortoise motor, is ON-OFF-ON). --Randy
Yeah... I read that about the Kato HO and N turnouts and thought, could they make that any more unnecessarily confusing? But instead of modifying my turnouts, I think I'm just going to drop feeders into the spurs and sidings and power them along with the main. Then the entire green line will circuit-breaker protected throught the PSX1. Besides, I'm not quite sure I understood the mod he was describing and how to accomplish it.
Thank you for the info on the DPDT switches being momentary!! Good stuff! I also found some info on the voltage/amperage requirements for the turnouts too. So that will be something to address when I get to the point of building my control panel.
You've been a great help Randy, thank you for your time!
Okay... I removed the double crossover from my layout and assembled a small dogbone with the double crossover in the middle of two loops. I have my PSX-AR's supplying power to each of the loops, which are isolated from the shank by insulated rail joiners, and a PSX1 providing circuit protection to the shank, which includes the double crossover.
I have the PSX-AR's jumped from J6-1 to J6-2, per the DCC Specialties manual, for use with my NCE Power Cab to set the current trip value to 1.27 amps - I did this instead of setting CV49 to 01.
Prior to running my locomotive I confirmed the proper power-up operation of the PSX-AR's (both D12 & D7 LED's indicating power, and the D6 LED off).
Now, when I run my train through the double crossover so it's set so there is no short created - switches set for 'straight through' operation - I have no operational issues. But when I throw the switches so the locomotive travels through the crossover to travel from one set of rails to the adjacent set of rails, the loco stops in the middle of the crossover and the indications I get at the PSX-AR's are flashing LED's at D7, D6 & D12.
I'm pretty desperate for some insight into why this isn't working... I have been fighting this reverse loop issue for months now and can't seem to get any traction on what I'm not doing right. Any thoughts?
PapaG Now, when I run my train through the double crossover so it's set so there is no short created - switches set for 'straight through' operation - I have no operational issues. But when I throw the switches so the locomotive travels through the crossover to travel from one set of rails to the adjacent set of rails, the loco stops in the middle of the crossover and the indications I get at the PSX-AR's are flashing LED's at D7, D6 & D12.
You have gapped and isolated each end loop, creating reverse loops at each end of the layout. So, all of the track outside the two loops (colored green in your track diagram) should be wired the same way, in phase. In other words, at the site of the double crossover, whichever way the "top" track is wired, the "bottom" track should be wired the same way. If wired that way, a loco passing through the double crossover from one track to the other track will have the same polarity, and no short will result.
Do you have the chank wired correctly?
So there are two tracks:
======
Say you use black and red for your feeders/bus. The order from back to front should be
black
red
Or whatever colors. But the key is, the rail closest to you on both tracks should be the same feeder, and the two rails furthest from you on both rails should be the same feeder.