PapaG richhotrain PapaG Now, when I run my train through the double crossover so it's set so there is no short created - switches set for 'straight through' operation - I have no operational issues. But when I throw the switches so the locomotive travels through the crossover to travel from one set of rails to the adjacent set of rails, the loco stops in the middle of the crossover and the indications I get at the PSX-AR's are flashing LED's at D7, D6 & D12. Your PSX-AR settings appear to be correct. From your description of the loco shorting in the middle of the turnout, the problem is likely mismatched polarities on the two mainline tracks. You have gapped and isolated each end loop, creating reverse loops at each end of the layout. So, all of the track outside the two loops (colored green in your track diagram) should be wired the same way, in phase. In other words, at the site of the double crossover, whichever way the "top" track is wired, the "bottom" track should be wired the same way. If wired that way, a loco passing through the double crossover from one track to the other track will have the same polarity, and no short will result. Rich You nailed it! I had the double crossover wired as though it were the two straight sections of an oval. So, everytime I switched the turnouts to 'cross' instead of 'pass', it shorted. I had inadvertently created another reversing section within the double crossover, LOL! Thank you Rich! This is working just as ordered now. The loco runs through the crossover in both directions, crossing and passing, as smooth as silk! After months of getting the equipment needed, testing, troubleshooting, testing some more, we are finally in a place where I can start to secure track on the layout knowing that the functioning elements have all been proofed, and I couldn't have done it without you and the guys here on the forum. That's a great relief! Thank you for your help!
richhotrain PapaG Now, when I run my train through the double crossover so it's set so there is no short created - switches set for 'straight through' operation - I have no operational issues. But when I throw the switches so the locomotive travels through the crossover to travel from one set of rails to the adjacent set of rails, the loco stops in the middle of the crossover and the indications I get at the PSX-AR's are flashing LED's at D7, D6 & D12. Your PSX-AR settings appear to be correct. From your description of the loco shorting in the middle of the turnout, the problem is likely mismatched polarities on the two mainline tracks. You have gapped and isolated each end loop, creating reverse loops at each end of the layout. So, all of the track outside the two loops (colored green in your track diagram) should be wired the same way, in phase. In other words, at the site of the double crossover, whichever way the "top" track is wired, the "bottom" track should be wired the same way. If wired that way, a loco passing through the double crossover from one track to the other track will have the same polarity, and no short will result. Rich
PapaG Now, when I run my train through the double crossover so it's set so there is no short created - switches set for 'straight through' operation - I have no operational issues. But when I throw the switches so the locomotive travels through the crossover to travel from one set of rails to the adjacent set of rails, the loco stops in the middle of the crossover and the indications I get at the PSX-AR's are flashing LED's at D7, D6 & D12.
Now, when I run my train through the double crossover so it's set so there is no short created - switches set for 'straight through' operation - I have no operational issues. But when I throw the switches so the locomotive travels through the crossover to travel from one set of rails to the adjacent set of rails, the loco stops in the middle of the crossover and the indications I get at the PSX-AR's are flashing LED's at D7, D6 & D12.
Your PSX-AR settings appear to be correct. From your description of the loco shorting in the middle of the turnout, the problem is likely mismatched polarities on the two mainline tracks.
You have gapped and isolated each end loop, creating reverse loops at each end of the layout. So, all of the track outside the two loops (colored green in your track diagram) should be wired the same way, in phase. In other words, at the site of the double crossover, whichever way the "top" track is wired, the "bottom" track should be wired the same way. If wired that way, a loco passing through the double crossover from one track to the other track will have the same polarity, and no short will result.
Rich
You nailed it! I had the double crossover wired as though it were the two straight sections of an oval. So, everytime I switched the turnouts to 'cross' instead of 'pass', it shorted. I had inadvertently created another reversing section within the double crossover, LOL!
Thank you Rich! This is working just as ordered now. The loco runs through the crossover in both directions, crossing and passing, as smooth as silk!
After months of getting the equipment needed, testing, troubleshooting, testing some more, we are finally in a place where I can start to secure track on the layout knowing that the functioning elements have all been proofed, and I couldn't have done it without you and the guys here on the forum.
That's a great relief! Thank you for your help!
Alton Junction
rrinker Do you have the chank wired correctly? So there are two tracks: ====== ====== Say you use black and red for your feeders/bus. The order from back to front should be black red black red Or whatever colors. But the key is, the rail closest to you on both tracks should be the same feeder, and the two rails furthest from you on both rails should be the same feeder. --Randy
Do you have the chank wired correctly?
So there are two tracks:
======
Say you use black and red for your feeders/bus. The order from back to front should be
black
red
Or whatever colors. But the key is, the rail closest to you on both tracks should be the same feeder, and the two rails furthest from you on both rails should be the same feeder.
--Randy
Randy,
You and Rich both nailed it! I had the crossover wired as though it were the two straight sections of an oval, and every time I switched the turnouts to 'cross' instead of 'pass', it caused a fault. I had inadvertently created another reversing section within the double crossover, LOL!
Now the crossover is wired as you and he indicated and, low and behold, the damn thing operates just as it's supposed to! LOL!
I am THRILLED!
This has been a long and frustrating problem for us, from the time I first bought the double crossover and the first AR until now has been a couple of months (or more). So having this element of the layout finally proofed is a great relief.
Couldn't have done it without you and the guys here on the forum! Thank you all very, very much!
Now, we're on to the next hurdle, whatever that might be!
Which is what I suspect. But to make the end loops the reverse sections it needs to be wired the way I said.
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinker Say you use black and red for your feeders/bus. The order from back to front should be black red black red
which would cause a short when crossing tracks throught the double crossover.
Okay... I removed the double crossover from my layout and assembled a small dogbone with the double crossover in the middle of two loops. I have my PSX-AR's supplying power to each of the loops, which are isolated from the shank by insulated rail joiners, and a PSX1 providing circuit protection to the shank, which includes the double crossover.
I have the PSX-AR's jumped from J6-1 to J6-2, per the DCC Specialties manual, for use with my NCE Power Cab to set the current trip value to 1.27 amps - I did this instead of setting CV49 to 01.
Prior to running my locomotive I confirmed the proper power-up operation of the PSX-AR's (both D12 & D7 LED's indicating power, and the D6 LED off).
I'm pretty desperate for some insight into why this isn't working... I have been fighting this reverse loop issue for months now and can't seem to get any traction on what I'm not doing right. Any thoughts?
rrinker If what is shown on the Wiring for DCC site is correct, if you don't want the power to be cut off, you can modify them as mentioned in the text and then add feeders to the frog side rails. It doesn't help that one size Kato turnout works one way, and another size works a different way - and that they flip-flopped it HO to N - so an HO #4 and N #6 work the same way, and the HO #6 and N #4 work the same way. Would be nice if they just made them all the same, or made them all with the screw to allow you to set it how you wanted. The control toggles need to be momentary. Kato turnouts work by switching the polarity of a single electromagnet, compared to say Atlas which has 2 different coils and the point position is controlled by which coil you energize. With Kato, if you make the 2 wires going to the turnout + and -, it will move one way, and if you make it - and +, it will move the other way. So what you need are DPDT momentary toggles. Often indicated as (ON)-OFF-(ON) (a non-momentary toggle, like you would use for a Tortoise motor, is ON-OFF-ON). --Randy
If what is shown on the Wiring for DCC site is correct, if you don't want the power to be cut off, you can modify them as mentioned in the text and then add feeders to the frog side rails.
It doesn't help that one size Kato turnout works one way, and another size works a different way - and that they flip-flopped it HO to N - so an HO #4 and N #6 work the same way, and the HO #6 and N #4 work the same way. Would be nice if they just made them all the same, or made them all with the screw to allow you to set it how you wanted.
The control toggles need to be momentary. Kato turnouts work by switching the polarity of a single electromagnet, compared to say Atlas which has 2 different coils and the point position is controlled by which coil you energize. With Kato, if you make the 2 wires going to the turnout + and -, it will move one way, and if you make it - and +, it will move the other way. So what you need are DPDT momentary toggles. Often indicated as (ON)-OFF-(ON) (a non-momentary toggle, like you would use for a Tortoise motor, is ON-OFF-ON).
Yeah... I read that about the Kato HO and N turnouts and thought, could they make that any more unnecessarily confusing? But instead of modifying my turnouts, I think I'm just going to drop feeders into the spurs and sidings and power them along with the main. Then the entire green line will circuit-breaker protected throught the PSX1. Besides, I'm not quite sure I understood the mod he was describing and how to accomplish it.
Thank you for the info on the DPDT switches being momentary!! Good stuff! I also found some info on the voltage/amperage requirements for the turnouts too. So that will be something to address when I get to the point of building my control panel.
You've been a great help Randy, thank you for your time!
rrinkerIt sounds like you are saying there is power loss after what is supposed to be a non power routing turnout when it is flipped a certain way. That shouldn't happen if they are set to not be power routing - switching off the opposite route is a feature of a power routing turnout. I've never used Kato track, but I think at least the HO turnouts are selectable to be power routing or not.
After reading Allan Gartner's "Wiring for DCC" article on the Kato #6 N Guage turnout, I believe that I did inadvertently use the wrong terminology. If I'm understanding Gartner's info correctly, that #6 turnout IS power routing... and all of my turnout's are #6's.
So, that is in line with what I experience when I throw certain turnouts in certain directions and have power interrupted to other areas of the layout. I wish these manufacturers would do a better job of spec'ing out their product on line. The Kato website is a virtual wasteland where it comes to product specs...
For instance, I'd like to eliminate the blue Kato automatic turnout control switches and replace them with DPDT switches, but I have no idea what the voltage/amperage requirements are for the power supply I'd need, and that information seems harder to come by than it ought to be.
Thank you for bringing that to my attention though... I feel just a little smarter every day, lol!
George
rrinker It sounds like you are saying there is power loss after what is supposed to be a non power routing turnout when it is flipped a certain way. That shouldn't happen if they are set to not be power routing - switching off the opposite route is a feature of a power routing turnout. I've never used Kato track, but I think at least the HO turnouts are selectable to be power routing or not.
That's interesting, because that's not how it was explained to me by the guys at my local shop.
What I have is this; on the Green line, in the center of the layout where the main, the passing siding, and the spur run at a diagonal from the upper left to the lower right, if I switch the turnout for the spur, the power goes to the spur, but power is then interrupted on the main.
Now, I don't currenlty have two locomotives, so I haven't been able to confirm if my switching the turnouts for the passing siding have the same effect for that section of the main between the two turnouts that comprise the passing siding, but I'll check that with my multimeter to see what I get.
Maybe I used the wrong terminology re: the Kato turnouts... I'll have to research that too. I wouldn't be surprised if the newbie got it wrong ;) What I do know is that the power routing operation of the #6 N guage turnout is not selectable.
rrinker Gotta be able to simplify in your head, my friend. What is a dog bone but an oval with 2 sides squiched together, right?
Gotta be able to simplify in your head, my friend. What is a dog bone but an oval with 2 sides squiched together, right?
This morning, I woke up way too soon and glanced at this thread while the coffee was still brewing and asked myself, where is the reverse loop? I must have been thinking about my continuous loop double mainline with double crossovers between the inner and outer mainlines. No reverse loops there.
If I would have looked closer at the OP's plan, I would have realized that it was not a double mainline at the point of the double crossover but rather a single mainline track returning in the opposite direction.
My bad.
Gotta be able to simplify in your head, my friend. What is a dog bone but an oval with 2 sides squiched together, right? And an oval with a diagonal from one side to the other is a reverse loop, right? But just one - depending on the diagonal, with just one of them, you can go from clockwise to counterclockwise around the loop, but not back the other way. To get back the other way, you need another diagonal the opposite way of the first one. Now you have an oval with an X in the middle. 2 reverse sections. Squish it down, now you have a dog bone with a double crossover. On the oval, you'd make the diagonals the reversing section, but the short bits of rail to make the crossover are too short to be effective, you'd have equipment entering and leaving such a reverse section at the same time. So you change the 'squished together' part to have matching phase so a crossover connecting them is no longer a short, but that now makes the two end loops a short, because it would connect the top rail of the upper track to the bottom rail of the lower track. Same at both ends. So you isolate the ends and make then reversing sections, and then it doesn't matter if you have one double, two double srossovers, one double and two singles, or whatever you want in the main lines without creating any additional reverse sections.
It may make more sense when the double track part is much longer, like mine stretching around my whole basement. The loops ont he end will be reversing sections. Along the main, there are at least 2 sets of crossovers on the lower level - one on either side of the branch connection, and one on either side of the main yard. And one more where the long branch connects back in just before the helix - so a train returning on that branch can cross over to the proper main. Then up the helix, and a few more crossovers on the upper deck before reaching the other end loop, which will be the second reverse section.
Yep, I see that now. That crossover is close enough to the red loop that any length train will create a short as it crosses over the DCO.
It's interesting because a casual glance at the drawing does not appear to create an issue with reverse polarity.
It is - trace around the red loop again and go through the crossover - you are back on the same track you came in on, going the opposite way. BOTH ends are reverse loops because of that crossover. Might be easier to imagine the crossover more in the middle of the green section instead of close to the red loop.
You can wire the green section out of phase, and make the crossover the reverse section, but that's too short to be useful.
rrinker It is because of the crossover in the shank. This is just a dog bone twisted around - in a dog bone, the easiest way to do things is make the end loops the reversing sections, then there can be as many crossovers between mains as you want with no additional reverse sections introduced. Take out the double crossover and there are no reverse sections at all.
It is because of the crossover in the shank. This is just a dog bone twisted around - in a dog bone, the easiest way to do things is make the end loops the reversing sections, then there can be as many crossovers between mains as you want with no additional reverse sections introduced. Take out the double crossover and there are no reverse sections at all.
PapaG Randy, Okay... if I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying to isolate the red and magenta lines as indicated in the attached... and apply power to them via my two PSX-AR's inside of their respective gapped sections. Then, apply power to the green line via my PSX1 circuit-breaker. This puts all of the turnouts in the shank, and none in either of the reversing loops. https://i.imgur.com/ANSXdF7.jpg This has all been done per what you've said... assuming that I'm understanding you correctly. Furthermore, I have the polarity issues resolved for the rest of the entire layout; my white feeders are all on a particular rail, as are all of my black feeders. I have feeders already installed for all of the sidings and spurs, though they won't get connected to power until I get the reversing loops working properly. So, with my non power-routing turnouts, if I engage them in certain ways power is interrupted to certain areas of the layout, but so long as they are all thrown for operation on the main-line, it's powered and I have voltage at all points along it, regardless of how the double-crossover is thrown and to either side of the gaps I've installed for the reversing loops. Once I get the feeders for the spurs and sidings on the green line connected to power, I should have uninterrupted power with the proper polarity to all points of the green line no matter how the various turnouts are thrown. So, first... if you can... let's confirm that I understand you correctly and that what I've done is consistent with what you instructed. Then, I have one other question... The instructions in the PSX-AR manual indicate that the gaps in the rails for the reversing loops should be staggered approximately 3/4 of an inch so the wheels of the locomotive cross the gaps one side at a time, instead of both the left and right wheels crossing the gap simultaneously. I'm using insulated rail joiners that are perfectly adjacent to one another between two lengths of track which provides no stagger at all... How critical is this staggering to the operation of the AR's and should I reconsider the use of the insulated rail joiners and cut the rails to acheive this stagger instead? Or, should I see if there are any problems with the operation of the AR's as I have it set up before taking that step? Thank you in advance Randy! George
Okay... if I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying to isolate the red and magenta lines as indicated in the attached... and apply power to them via my two PSX-AR's inside of their respective gapped sections. Then, apply power to the green line via my PSX1 circuit-breaker.
This puts all of the turnouts in the shank, and none in either of the reversing loops.
https://i.imgur.com/ANSXdF7.jpg
This has all been done per what you've said... assuming that I'm understanding you correctly.
Furthermore, I have the polarity issues resolved for the rest of the entire layout; my white feeders are all on a particular rail, as are all of my black feeders. I have feeders already installed for all of the sidings and spurs, though they won't get connected to power until I get the reversing loops working properly.
So, with my non power-routing turnouts, if I engage them in certain ways power is interrupted to certain areas of the layout, but so long as they are all thrown for operation on the main-line, it's powered and I have voltage at all points along it, regardless of how the double-crossover is thrown and to either side of the gaps I've installed for the reversing loops.
Once I get the feeders for the spurs and sidings on the green line connected to power, I should have uninterrupted power with the proper polarity to all points of the green line no matter how the various turnouts are thrown.
So, first... if you can... let's confirm that I understand you correctly and that what I've done is consistent with what you instructed.
Then, I have one other question...
The instructions in the PSX-AR manual indicate that the gaps in the rails for the reversing loops should be staggered approximately 3/4 of an inch so the wheels of the locomotive cross the gaps one side at a time, instead of both the left and right wheels crossing the gap simultaneously. I'm using insulated rail joiners that are perfectly adjacent to one another between two lengths of track which provides no stagger at all...
How critical is this staggering to the operation of the AR's and should I reconsider the use of the insulated rail joiners and cut the rails to acheive this stagger instead? Or, should I see if there are any problems with the operation of the AR's as I have it set up before taking that step?
Thank you in advance Randy!
I don't think the staggered gaps matter. Unless you are measuring and cutting with precision instruments, they're staggered anyway. Even if you just stuck plastic joiners on the rails.
It sounds like you are saying there is power loss after what is supposed to be a non power routing turnout when it is flipped a certain way. That shouldn't happen if they are set to not be power routing - switching off the opposite route is a feature of a power routing turnout. I've never used Kato track, but I think at least the HO turnouts are selectable to be power routing or not.
On one hand, having the power cut off on a siding when you switch back to the main might be good, even with DCC. You won't be able to accidently select the wrong loco and derail it or crash into a bumper. But at the same time, on a passing siding you want the waiting train to sit there and idle (if it has sound) while the other passes on the main, not suddenly just go dead.
BigDaddy
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
For your reversers, keep the turnouts out of the isolated section.
On the magenta line: gap on the straight side of the turnout at the bottom, and gap just before the points of the turnout at the top.
On the red line, gap just past the double crossover on both tracks, where you have the red change to green.
For the rest of the doube track area, you just have to be careful to connect the proper bus lines. If you look at the bottom left, just before they split to go to the magenta loop, if the rail of the upper track closest to the top is your red feeder, then the rail at the top of the lower track is also red. That's what allows you to have as many crossovers int he shank of the bone as you want without creating more reversing sections - the rails that connect with a crossover all have the same polarity.
Hi Randy,
This is what I've got...
The idea being that the Red and Magenta sections are my reversing loops, keeping all of the turnouts in the shank.
But, the shank could also just be the double-crossover with reversing loops at either end of it. Then I'd have the Red reversing zone without any turnouts in it, and the Magenta zone would extend all the way to the other end of the double-crossover and include all of the turnouts.
The question that I'm not clear on is, if I'm running a second loco in the small switch yard at the bottom, should the reversing loops be configured as in the drawing, or with the shank of the dogbone being just the double-switch?
Or, does it matter?
I should probably also include this; all of my turnouts are non-power routing, but I am prepared to send feeders to each spur or siding as necessary. Which may create an issue I'm not considering with one or the other of these possible layout questions re: the reversing loops.
https://imgur.com/ZBG26KR
Can you maybe draw out what you are thinking? Even scribbling it on a piece of paper and taking a picture with a phone would be better than nothing. It sounds like the basic idea is something like this post from almost 6 years ago:
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/238329.aspx
15th post, first picture with the basic folded dog bone. I can't directly post the picture as it comes from that user's imgur account. My plan is similar except is stretches out over my entire basement and since I haven't drawn the track plan for the upper level yet, there's only one loop showing so it isn't particularly helpful.
In my plan, the loops on the ends will be hidden track, and will consist of multiple concentric tracks that serve as my staging. I haven't come up with a good reason NOT to just run it all off the reverser.
If instead of concentric loops for staging, this was visible track and I had sidings in here - I'm not quite getting the visual of sidings or a yard with the base turnout as part of the loop itself, as this would seem to severely limit the length of track. It still should be OK to have these tracks included as part of the reversing section - a loco switching these tracks will keep right on moving when another train enters the loop and triggers the AR.
It would seem to me that the better use of the open space inside the loop would be to have the turnouts on the shank with the tracks extending into the open middle of the loop. Extreme example, if the loop were really wide, would be a complete industrial park with sidings all over the place filling the middle of the loop. Second example would be if the engine facility, turntable, and roundhouse were inside the loop. Connections to the layout would be on the chank, the loop track would be nothing but the loop track and be insulated at both ends where it joins the shank and made the reversing section.
The second picture of the 15th post in the thread I linked - maybe that's what you had in mind. I see on the right side he has a runaround, the food processor, paper mill, and Acme Products all coming off the loop. Depending on train lengths being run, on this plan I would probably make the one reversing section start on the red track (when you look at this thread, the tracks are color coded) right below where the lower left turnout for the runaround is, up to the point end of the upper right turnout for the runaround(on the red track just above where the label is for the food processor industry).
The other loop on this plan is coded with light blue. There is a yard lead in dark blue coming off the loop, and a passing siding across the bottom as part of the light blue loop. For this one, I would put the gaps just to the left of the turnout that connects the dark blue lead, down to the right hand turnout for the light blue passing siding (so the turnout and the passing siding are all part of the AR section, but NOT the light blue turnout that diverges to the other end of the dark blue yard area).
Should be a starting point, adjust from there is necessary.
rrinker No picture, but it sounds like a dog bone shape with a crossover in the middle. In that case, previous advice is correct, isolate each end loop, so you need two autoreversers, and then you can have as many crossovers in the shank part of the bone as you want with no additional reversers needed. --Randy
No picture, but it sounds like a dog bone shape with a crossover in the middle. In that case, previous advice is correct, isolate each end loop, so you need two autoreversers, and then you can have as many crossovers in the shank part of the bone as you want with no additional reversers needed.
I was hoping to follow-up with you on something you said in your previous re: having as many crossovers in the shank as I want without the need for more reversers.
I reached out to Tony's Trains for some advice on another topic, but what I got back included a recomendation to create each of these reversing loops outside of, or to either end of, a series of turnouts, sidings, and a small yard, that exist in the layout.
So, in one configuration, the shank of the dog bone would contain all of these turnouts with loops at either end, but in another configuration the turnouts, sidings and yard would be contained within one of the reversing loops.
If I want to run other locomotives, like a switch engine in my yard for example, is having those features included in the reversing loop going to create a problem for me? Or should I, as the rep from Tony's recommended, create my loops to either end of a much longer shank that contains those features?
Thanks in advance!G
I've been informed that it's a 'folded dog-bone'...
Thank you for advice, it's consistent with everything else I've been told.