Ken's the one I was referring to about stessing systems - the original NCE radio was inadequate, so he went Digitrax but the 120 slot limit was a problem, but then NCE improved the radios and now NCE radio works fine. And Digtrax has released a new system with a 240 loco limit - certainly because someone requested the capability, not just to do it with no prospect of sales.
I managed to remember to go visit during one of the open houses. That time is coming up again. After all these years of not being all that far away, I finally remembered to head down that way and hit up a few layouts, including Ken's. As soon as I entered the layout area, I was pretty much speechless. Never saw something that big, done as a realistic layout. Not sure any of the public displays I've been to are as big as his layout.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Yes, Ken's layout will leave you speechless. It's like Disney World, hard to explain the size and scope to someone who has not seen it.
Sheldon
rrinker I was specifically referring to the club I belong to, not any club. And I don;t have any keep alives now, don't need them, and don't plan to start needing them any time soon. My home layouts have always run just fine, no stalls. Though - are any large clubs using RailPro? Or truly large home layouts, ones that host a lot of operators at a time, like Tony Koester's NKP or a really huge one like Ken McCorry's?
I was specifically referring to the club I belong to, not any club. And I don;t have any keep alives now, don't need them, and don't plan to start needing them any time soon. My home layouts have always run just fine, no stalls.
Though - are any large clubs using RailPro? Or truly large home layouts, ones that host a lot of operators at a time, like Tony Koester's NKP or a really huge one like Ken McCorry's?
I think that the prospect of a club exclusively using RailPro is a bit ridiculous as it limits what people can do. The beauty of RailPro is you can use it on any DCC layout as well.
For similar reasons I think people would chose to use a DCC system with RailPro locomotives on a big layout as it will allow visitors to use standard DCC locomotives. The only RailPro user I know has a small layout but brings his locos to the big layout of other and runs on straight DCC.
Personally if I went with RailPro I would use DCC power and RailPro locos/throttles to allow for more flexibility. It is important to note that RailPro decoder can act as regular DCC decoders after a quick setting change using the RailPro throttle.
Regards, Isaac
I model my railroad and you model yours! I model my way and you model yours!
SPSOT fan rrinker I was specifically referring to the club I belong to, not any club. And I don;t have any keep alives now, don't need them, and don't plan to start needing them any time soon. My home layouts have always run just fine, no stalls. Though - are any large clubs using RailPro? Or truly large home layouts, ones that host a lot of operators at a time, like Tony Koester's NKP or a really huge one like Ken McCorry's? I think that the prospect of a club exclusively using RailPro is a bit ridiculous as it limits what people can do. The beauty of RailPro is you can use it on any DCC layout as well. For similar reasons I think people would chose to use a DCC system with RailPro locomotives on a big layout as it will allow visitors to use standard DCC locomotives. The only RailPro user I know has a small layout but brings his locos to the big layout of other and runs on straight DCC. Personally if I went with RailPro I would use DCC power and RailPro locos/throttles to allow for more flexibility. It is important to note that RailPro decoder can act as regular DCC decoders after a quick setting change using the RailPro throttle.
No, you can, as explained earlier, my OCD perfectionism would simply not allow two different control systems on my layout.
And clubs just don't interest me other than to visit as a guest...
What would be the point of installing DCC only to run all your locos with Railpro? A plain DC power supply to provide constant voltage on the rails is far less expensive than a DCC system putting a DCC signal on the track which isn't going to be used for anything except maybe the occasional visitor.
Hopefully the DCC compatibility of the RailPro receiver is better than MTH's idea of DCC compatibility. But that points out again a feature of two of the competing direct radio systems, in that they not only use DCC protocol, they use whatever DCC decoder you already have in the loco and simply add a direct radio (with option for dead rail) to the loco.
Sheldon,"Ever changing"? They've been $16 for over 20 years! Seriously, the first $20 decoder (available at 20% off = $16), the Digitax DH120, was retired in 1998. And goodness knows you and I have had more than one discussion about the cost of DCC decoders here. And P2K drop in decoders? Um, most if not all P2K's since the mid-1990's have had 8-pin DCC sockets. They don't require board replacement decoders. The only ones that don't have sockets are the old "gold box" P2K's like the original runs of the BL2, FA-2/FB-2, GP18, SD9, and E8A (AFAIK). Everything in a blue-gray P2K box (and later) has a plug.
Paul3 Sheldon,"Ever changing"? They've been $16 for over 20 years! Seriously, the first $20 decoder (available at 20% off = $16), the Digitax DH120, was retired in 1998. And goodness knows you and I have had more than one discussion about the cost of DCC decoders here. And P2K drop in decoders? Um, most if not all P2K's since the mid-1990's have had 8-pin DCC sockets. They don't require board replacement decoders. The only ones that don't have sockets are the old "gold box" P2K's like the original runs of the BL2, FA-2/FB-2, GP18, SD9, and E8A (AFAIK). Everything in a blue-gray P2K box (and later) has a plug.
Actually no, the first several runs of Blue Box Proto (early 90's I guess) did not all have 8 pin sockets....trust me I have stacks of them.
And if I was going to go DCC I would likely pull the boards and hard wire them, but again, work I am not motivated to do.
I looked at DCC long and hard, twice, a pretty good while ago. For me it simply does not add enough to justify the cost. I have radio throttles, I have CTC and signals. DCC does not really make any of that easier or better.
$16 or $25 or $35, more than I want to spend, along with 8-10 throttles, radio base stations, reversers, boosters, command station, etc.
The stuff I have is paid for and works fine for my goals.......
PS - I just did some quick decoder shopping at TrainWorld, and I saw a lot of motion only decoders that were a bit more than $16, but all were in that $15 to $35 range.
Why one decoder would be used over another obviously is based on a number of factors that I have no interest sorting out right now. But it clearly appears that $25 or $35 is a pretty typical price in many cases.
Sheldon,I researched the Internet Wayback machine (and eBay) and found out the following:The first P2K engines were in gold boxes: the BL2 (1989), FA-2/FB-2 (1990-91) and GP18 (1992-93), after which they coverted to the blue box. I thought that the gold boxes continued for the E8's and SD9's, but I was wrong.The first blue box P2K was the E8A/E8B (1994-95) and they did not have DCC plugs. Nor did the first SW900/1200 (1995-96), also in the P2K blue box. But the P2K blue box SD7's (1995) and SD9's (1996) do have DCC plugs, along with the E7A/E7B (1996), GP9 (1997), PA/PB (1997), GP20 (1998), and so on.So it wasn't the first "several" runs of P2K blue box that didn't have DCC plugs, just two runs.https://web.archive.org/web/20040203190507/http://www.lifelikeproducts.com/proto/olderlocos.htmAnd yes, we get it. You're never going DCC. I don't care about that. What I do care about is getting the facts right. Rail against DCC all you like, but do it with the correct facts and figures, please.Let me put it in a way that would apply to your situation. Imagine if someone said they'd never go for an DC analog system like you have because relays cost 2 to 3 times more than you know they actually do. Not only that, they say that the relays they are pricing are far in excess of what you know is actually needed. Say, instead of quoting 12VDC SPDT 3amp types that you know is all you need, they're quoting 110VAC 4PDT 20amp types. Sort of like swatting a fly with a Buick.Just because you saw a lot of motion-only decoders for more than $16 doesn't mean that one has to purchase them. If one wants to save a few bucks, one can hardwire them in with the $16 version vs. buying a form factor type that clicks in place. Some people are willing to pay for the simplicity of a quick install vs. getting out the soldering iron.The typical price for a decoder is for the most popular one, which in your case (as in mine) would be the motion-only, headlight-only decoder of the under-$20 type (I don't do ditchlights or beacons either). In the future, please use $16 per decoder for your 140 engines, or at least $20. $2240-$2800 is still a chunk of money and can be prohibitive to many. There's no reason to make it $4900.
OK, agreed, simple motion only decoders are less than $20, I am onboard with that. Please understand that my really serious research was 24 years ago. Only occasionally have glanced around to see what's "new" in DCC.
But even a $16 decoder is a big investment in a loco you only paid $39 for
And for the record, my "universal" relay is a 24VDC 4PDT 5amp ice cube at a dollar cost average investment of $1.50
And I don't think I rail against DCC, I rail against the idea that one size fits all needs........after all, I do say rather often, "if you want sound, you need DCC".
So was able to unpack a few boxes and check a few locos, and yes, many but not all the blue box locos have 8 pin plugs. It's hard to remember all this stuff.......
rrinkerThough - are any large clubs using RailPro? Or truly large home layouts, ones that host a lot of operators at a time, like Tony Koester's NKP or a really huge one like Ken McCorry's?
I'm aware of only one large layout using Railpro - Lee Nicholas' Utah Colorado Western.
Incidentally, I ran once at Ken McCorry's when he still had Digitrax, and remember the radio throttles losing control, and other performance issues. It was one factor in me choosing to go with NCE instead.
Rob Spangler
rrinker What would be the point of installing DCC only to run all your locos with Railpro? A plain DC power supply to provide constant voltage on the rails is far less expensive than a DCC system putting a DCC signal on the track which isn't going to be used for anything except maybe the occasional visitor. Hopefully the DCC compatibility of the RailPro receiver is better than MTH's idea of DCC compatibility. But that points out again a feature of two of the competing direct radio systems, in that they not only use DCC protocol, they use whatever DCC decoder you already have in the loco and simply add a direct radio (with option for dead rail) to the loco.
I believe RailPro says it is a bad idea to run RailPro on a DC power pack for long periods of time. Something about the power not being pure or constant or something. Using DCC components would allow flexibility for other operators and visitors regarding what can be run.
I don’t really think any serious RailPro users make use of the switch to DCC capability. It’s really built in as more of a backup incase Ring Engineering goes out of business.
Ring themselves sell high current DC power supplies to power the layout (which also seem to act as radio repeaters - which if you distribute your power around the layout instead of clustering all power supplies in one place actually makes that a bit of clever design, because if your room is big enough to need multiple power supplies, then you are likely to also need radio repeaters to get complete coverage). They may not want you to run off the output of an old power pack, because of pulse power, not clean filtered DC, and general relatively low power, but high current clean DC power supplies are quite common these days, if you don;t need the Ring ones with radio repeaters and status readback.
rrinker Ring themselves sell high current DC power supplies to power the layout (which also seem to act as radio repeaters - which if you distribute your power around the layout instead of clustering all power supplies in one place actually makes that a bit of clever design, because if your room is big enough to need multiple power supplies, then you are likely to also need radio repeaters to get complete coverage). They may not want you to run off the output of an old power pack, because of pulse power, not clean filtered DC, and general relatively low power, but high current clean DC power supplies are quite common these days, if you don;t need the Ring ones with radio repeaters and status readback. --Randy
I used filtered, regulated, pure DC power supplies with my Aristo Train Engineer Throttles. They were not expensive at all.
Should be fine for RailPro.
Exactly. Although since they support using the RailPro receivers on track powered by DCC, it can't be THAT picky about the power coming in. Ring's power supplies are not cheap, but they are more than just a filtered power supply. Ones like yours are common - I'll be needing a few just for my layout lighting which will be LED strips.
Yes, I think RailPro can use any filter power supply. I’d guess same voltage as regular DCC would be ideal. The advantage of the RailPro power supply is you can monitor it from your throttle and other stuff I really son’t know about. Still I suppose it would be cheaper to just use another power supply.
The RailPro power supplies can be used as a repeater. You can turn the repeater function on & off from the hand controller. You can also shut the power supply off from the hand controllers too. The E-Stop function on the hand controller can either send zero speed commands to all RailPro engines or shut off the power supplies. A handy feature if you are running DCC and RailPro presuming you are using a RailPro power supply for the DCC.
The latest RailPro decoders can be controlled from a DCC hand controller. The only reason I can think of that would be useful is having more than one operator on a small layout. I only have one DCC hand controller and one RailPro controller. If I had a second operator they could run RailPro or DCC.
Paul3: "South Penn, Why would switches not be "wired properly" affect MU'ing?"
That was not a very good explanation of my switch problems. The switches I bought were Shinohara power routing switches. They were used but cheap. The first problem I had was the small copper tab on the points that was supposed to make contact with the rails to make electrical contact. They were bent and some looked like accordions. Getting these to work was a real pain. To get the points off the switch you had to drill out a small rivet in the throw bar. If the copper was mangled up too bad, trying to fix it was an exercise in futility. Some of the switches developed problems with the hinge on the points. The points were connected to the switch with a rail connector. Over time these came loose and continuity suffered. This problem was intermittent and caused some real headaches. On some switches, I soldered the rail connectors on the points.
All of the switches were code 100 and not DCC friendly. Double crossovers were particularly troublesome.
Most of my engines are Stewart 'F' units with Kato drives. They are short enough that they would stop while going through a malfunctioning switch. This happened with DC, DCC, or RailPro.
I replaced most of those switches with Peco.