The subject line says it all. How many of you have signals on your layouts, or would like to, or have any interest in this aspect of operation.
If you don't have any interest in signaling, your thoughts on why not are also welcome.
Your interest may be for operational reasons or just visual effect.
I use a simplified CTC system that streamlines CTC operations, provides easy to understand and follow trackside signals, snd looks realistic to the viewer.
Your thoughts please.
Sheldon
1. I like working with electronics
2. I think I would hate the paperwork associated with TT&TO style operations (but I haven't tried it)
3. At least parts of my prototype in my era had centralized control, even if not full CTC and not the entire railroad.
4. In general, I like 'animation' be that actual moving things or just lights changing, like signals, but in a more realistic fashion than just going to red when a train passes and then after a time delay going green again. I plan plenty of lighting animation in structures on my layout as well - everything from a flickery 50's B&W TV to flickering kerosene lanterns.
5. However, the CTC part will be easily bypassable, because unless I discover soomething new about myself, I am not one to only run the layout when I have a full operating crew. So if there is just me, or no one to man the dispatcher position and control the CTC panel, I will still be able to freely run trains anywhere on the layout, and operate turnouts at will.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Randy,
I agree completely, that is why I designed my system to work with a crew of 8-12, or just a lone operator.
A lone operator can perfom all the dispatcher and route selection tasks from local tower panels as he walks with his train. My signaling does "gloss over" some signal aspects, and is basically all interlocking signals, but it accurately reflects occupancy, route speed restrictions, and dispatched authority at all times.
Well, being interested in short line railroading, we don't use signals. Typically, what I am familiar with is the short line having to always stop before crossing a class 1 line regardless of schedule, and wait for the class 1 to give the verbal approval to cross (whenever they get around to it sometimes). No signals on the line.
- Douglas
I have signals that are controlled by the dispatcher on my railroad during an operating session. I will be installing a signal system down the road that will work on 2 tracks, bi-directional. This will be in addition to the signals controlled by the dispatcher. Right now they are PRR type signals, but eventually will be changed to a more modern day type signal.
Neal
I don't use CTC because I model 1900-1905 and it hasn't been invented yet.
I am familiar with CTC, having worked for a real railroad.
Because most model railroads are so short, they really don't need all of CTC, there just isn't the need for stopping distances the prototype has. Because most model railroads have no speedometer for the train crews, they really don't need all of CTC because there is no way to tell if a train is going 30 mph or 40 mph, or 20 mph or 30 mph.
CTC is also very expensive.
To be clear, true CTC requires a minimum of 2 people, a crew and a dispatcher. If you "automate" CTC what you are really doing is loading a pre-planned sequence of moves into a computer and the computer is executing them in order. The prototype calls this "stacking". The problem there is that you lose the flexibility of the real system (why real railroads have it).
If you don't want all the expense, Track Warrant Control, TWC, has the same flexibility as CTC. Just make it entirely verbal, no forms, and you have CTC without the signals.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
nealknowsRight now they are PRR type signals, but eventually will be changed to a more modern day type signal.
Ironically the PRR didn't use much CTC, they used a block control system with tower operators handling the signals for the dispatchers.
DoughlessWell, being interested in short line railroading, we don't use signals. Typically, what I am familiar with is the short line having to always stop before crossing a class 1 line regardless of schedule, and wait for the class 1 to give the verbal approval to cross (whenever they get around to it sometimes). No signals on the line.
Manual interlockings require a human being to line the route and signals, that person can either be local, in a "tower", or remote (typically the dispatcher is the operator). The approaching trains step on a circuit which alerts the operator and the operator lines the signal as traffic allows.
Automatic interlockings are typically those with just a straight crossing, no switches involved in the interlocking. The first train to step on its approach circuit gets the signal. The dispatcher can't line the signal, he can't even authorize a train to cross, its all automatic.
The newer the era, the more likely the interlocking will be automatic (if its a straight crossing). Things that affect that are the proximity to a terminal or yard, train density and passenger trains.
Exactly, we don't need all of CTC from an operations or even from a visual standpoint.
After studying signaling quite bit, I realized several old timers in this hobby had the right idea in modeling just interlocking/absolute signals.
And on top of that I simplified the "steps" the dispatcher must take.
And, the redundant controls on my tower panels allows it to operate like the PRR tower system as well.
My response is kinda similar to Randy's . . .
I like the electronics. I like the lights and the automatic animation. My layout is completely wired using Digitrax signal and detection stuff. I use JMRI to provide the command logic.
The signal system is set up for ABS, where the signal aspects reflect the position of the turnouts, and vice versa the other way around. Switch position will affect the signals facing both directions at a particular location as well as the next two signals ahead and behind that location. JMRI also allows a dispatcher to set routes and individual signals (and throw and close switches) from a central control panel. There is a provision where smack dab every signal on the layout can be set red-over-red and the dispatcher takes complete control over movements.
Turnouts can be set (and thereby signal aspects can be changed) from the hand-held throttles or by pushing buttons on the fascia. As a lone operator, I can function as dispatcher, conductor, and engineer simultaneously as I walk around the layout. I can set the route from A to B by looking at the imagined path and noting block occupancy with the calibrated Mark II eyeball, by throwing and/or closing switches along the way, and allowing the ABS signal system to set the aspects. Then, just follow the lights.
My system is admittedly a simplified amalgamation based on several published prototypical signal systems. But it is simplified in such a way that my limited abilities can understand.
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
ROBERT PETRICKThe signal system is set up for ABS, where the signal aspects reflect the position of the turnouts, and vice versa the other way around. Switch position will affect the signals facing both directions at a particular location as well as the next two signals ahead and behind that location.
Just to be clear, CTC and ABS do not have signals located at the same spots around a switch.
In ABS a siding switch will have two signals, both positioned beyond the points of the switch on the single track, one facing in each direction. In CTC the siding switch will have 3 signals, one on each approach route to the switch, all facing away from the switch.
In ABS the leaving signal at a siding doesn't indicate the position of the siding switch itself. In ABS all the switches are manually controlled.
dehusman ROBERT PETRICK The signal system is set up for ABS, where the signal aspects reflect the position of the turnouts, and vice versa the other way around. Switch position will affect the signals facing both directions at a particular location as well as the next two signals ahead and behind that location. Just to be clear, CTC and ABS do not have signals located at the same spots around a switch. In ABS a siding switch will have two signals, both positioned beyond the points of the switch on the single track, one facing in each direction. In CTC the siding switch will have 3 signals, one on each approach route to the switch, all facing away from the switch. In ABS the leaving signal at a siding doesn't indicate the position of the siding switch itself. In ABS all the switches are manually controlled.
ROBERT PETRICK The signal system is set up for ABS, where the signal aspects reflect the position of the turnouts, and vice versa the other way around. Switch position will affect the signals facing both directions at a particular location as well as the next two signals ahead and behind that location.
Hey Dave-
Thanks for the info.
Like I said, my system is simplified and probably violates a lot of prototypical rules. Not really ABS or CTC. But sorta like, kinda like, and functions a little bit like both; or either; or neither.
There are two 3-over-3 three-color signal towers at each switch. One is on the single main ahead of the switch. The other is between the through and diverging legs beyond the switch and facing so that traffic on either leg can see the lights.
The signal aspects indicate switch position and occupancy of the next two blocks ahead in the direction of travel. Simplified.
i started studying signals and adding them to my layout to help me recognize turnout positions without having to look at the turnout. This may be more pragmatic than prototypical.
i also use signals as an application of my electronics and firmware background
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
ROBERT PETRICKLike I said, my system is simplified and probably violates a lot of prototypical rules. Not really ABS or CTC. But sorta like, kinda like, and functions a little bit like both; or either; or neither.
I have operated on a couple layouts with full CTC systems, one N scale and one O scale, but most have some sort of compromises. Most people seem to want more of a "switch indictor" type system when it boils down to it. CTC is really a series of control points with ABS between them. Whatever works.
Another system, that is probably the least modeled, is "rule 251" territory or "double track". It has two main tracks and operated with current of traffic (all the trains go one way on one track and the other way on the other track. It has ABS in the current of traffic and NO signals for running against the current of traffic. It was one of the most common signal systems from WW1 to the 1970's or 80's, especially on routes with a lot of passenger trains. It can handle a HUGE volume of trains (as long as nothing goes wrong or stops on one of the tracks). In the 60's, 70's and 80's the railroads converted most of the double track (each track signalled in one direction) to two main tracks (both tracks signalled in both directions) in order to increase capacity and flexibility.
I model modern, just a fan of the PRR signals. Eventually when I add the new system to the railroad, they will go away. Add to it, these are the old NJ International PRR signals with bulbs! Talk about old. I've had them since they came out. I have 12 on the railroad and they are located in strategic 'interlocking' areas of my railroad. It does work well with the dispatcher, and we operate regularly.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Randy, I agree completely, that is why I designed my system to work with a crew of 8-12, or just a lone operator. A lone operator can perfom all the dispatcher and route selection tasks from local tower panels as he walks with his train. My signaling does "gloss over" some signal aspects, and is basically all interlocking signals, but it accurately reflects occupancy, route speed restrictions, and dispatched authority at all times. Sheldon
Yes, not being blessed with a hanger in which to build my layout, the distances are for the most part too short to have many intermediate signals between interlockings.
Even the club layout is mostly just a series of interlockings. The dispatch panel was created with JMRI and mimics the very latest PC-based dispatcher consoles, it's not a compter recreation of a USS type machine. WHen no one want sto sit and manage the routes, the whole system can be fleeted and trains can freely circulate, as the signals automatically clear.
I do have a few spaces in my plan where ther eewill be nothing but main line runnign through scenery, with enough spacing between adjoining interlockings to allow for an intermediate signal, but there won;t be many of those. Complicating it all is that it's all double track, and bidirectionally signaled. Didn't say I was going to make it easy on myself. Being double tracked it probably has no real need of CTC, but again, I like it. I've contemplated making the layout single track, to make it more interesting, and probably fit better in the space, but the prototype had at least 2 tracks and I don't think it would have the same effect. I've also contemplated having oen deck double tracked and the other single, but that seems like it may bottleneck things too much. The mixed mode would have the lower level from staging to the main yard double tracked, and then from the main yard, up the helix, and through the upper level to upper staging all be single (probably double track in the helix no matter what, since it is a huge time waster).
I can't see myself going the route of soldering resistors to wheel sets. I would like some automatic animation. It wouldn't have to absolutely prototypical, only good enough to fool me.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
BigDaddy Would like signaling I'm not an electronics guy. Diagrams look a lot like Greek to me. I am not a stupid guy, I excelled in biochemistry, when most of my classmates struggled. Enthusiasm for chemistry does not transfer to electronics. I think I could figure out how to use a tortoise to implement signals, but I use ground throws. I know caboose industries have a throw that is also a switch. I have a couple but haven't installed them. My knowledge of protype signaling and CTC is lame. I can't see myself going the route of soldering resistors to wheel sets. I would like some automatic animation. It wouldn't have to absolutely prototypical, only good enough to fool me.
PM sent
You don't have to solder the resistors, just glue ensuring you don't foul the leads.
I am intrigued by the bidirectional two track main idea, it's nice because it retains the operation of a single track main and sidings.
Steve
If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!
Glue resistors? Oh, for detector wheel sets - yes, you just glue them to the axle, and use conductive paint. No soldering - I doubt you could solder them without destroying the resistor, because the metal wheels/axle will suck the heat out like crazy.
I use the Locktite CA that comes in a bottle with two squeeze pads on either side of the spout - it is super easy to dispense a tiny little drop. With the little surface mount resistors you use, it is important to have a TINY drop of glue, because if it gets on the connections on the edge, it will insulate them and you'll never get the resistor to work. To form the connection, there are several types of conductive paint, but I use the silver type - it actually has silver in it, and as you can imagine, it is not cheap. However, a small bottle does hundreds of wheel sets. Just don't spill it!
I want signals too, but like bigdaddy, no tengo knowledge or enough electronic skill. Maybe I can make headway off of further posts.....
I'm beginning to realize that Windows 10 and sound decoders have a lot in common. There are so many things you have to change in order to get them to work the way you want.
NWP SWPI am intrigued by the bidirectional two track main idea, it's nice because it retains the operation of a single track main and sidings.
Not really. The whole point of having two main tracks is to avoid the operation of a single main track and sidings.
But if you have two mains and they are bidirectionally signaled then for an ops session one could set up a "wrong main" scenario in which both mains are used for traffic in both directions, it can make an op session more interesting or just over complicate it.
Normally with two main tracks you don't have passing sidings (don't need them) you only have crossovers. Yes you operate in both directions on both mains, but its not the same as two parallel single tracks.
I use signals only to let me know that turnouts are aligned properly for a route.
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I have also used them to let me know the polarity on a reverse loop section is selected properly.
Nothing to do with CTC or actual train control. That works well for me.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
I am interested in signalling. At my club, we need it but we're so concentrated on building our new layout (and keeping it running) that we've really slacked off on signalling. We started back in 1999 with the DS54/BS-1 combo from Digitrax for block detection, but quickly switched over to the BDL16, which became the BDL162 then BDL168. However, we have found these boards to be inadequate to our needs. On all new construction, we're using the Tower Controllers (BOD's) from RR-CirKits and are slowly retrofitting the older parts of the layout with them. They are much more reliable than the BDL series.
We run two divisions. One is a doubletrack mainline to be signalled in one direction per track. The other is a single track main with passing sidings. Our mainline blocks are roughly 15 feet long (approx. thirty 40' cars) and our trains are roughly 16.5'. All cabooses and passenger cars must have "detection", either a resistor or a light. With freight cars we recommend it, but few actually do so.
The idea is that the signals will be 100% automatic between interlockings. At interlockings, the signals will be controllable by the dispatcher, but normally fleeted green.
As for aspects, we're going to cheat a bit. We'll use regular NORAC signals, but change their use a smidge. Instead of being totally speed based, it's more routing based. For example, take a simple interlocking of a double track main with crossovers and a switch into a yard. The interlocking will be guarded by triple head signal masts. The top head is for passing straight through the interlocking. Green/Red/Red ("Clear") would mean pass at normal speed. Yellow/Red/Red ("Approach") means to slow and be prepared to stop at the next signal.
The 2nd signal head is for the crossover. Red/Green/Red ("Medium Clear") would mean slow through the turnout and then accelerate to normal speed. Red/Yellow/Red ("Medium Approach") would mean slow through the turnout and be prepared to stop at the next signal.
The 3rd signal head is for leaving the mainline in this situation. If it showed Red/Red/Yellow ("Restricting"), it means you are heading off the mainline and into the yard. Red/Red/Red means stop.
For the most part, we're going to have just these 6 signal indications. We have to keep it simple as our members are not employees who do this for a living (well, other than the couple real engineers in the club). The operators will not have to memorize much. In fact, I will tell them that they only have to really know two signals: Stop and Not Stop. I'll be happy if I can get them to follow that.
Paul, it is interesting that your choice of signal aspect use is basically the same as mine.
I have skipped having any "real" intermediate block signals, the distances between interlockings do not support that, but I have a little trick that makes it look more interesting.
I have approach signals half way through each mainline block. So when the interlocking signal is red/red/red, the approach signal shows yellow. On any other interlocking indication, the approach signals show green.
My signaling system is also based on routing and not so much on speed, but a yellow aspect could indicate 'slow down because the next signal might be red', and I suppose that could set speed limits.
There are no intermediate or sub-block signals. Most blocks are rather short, and if the operator/engineer knows what he's looking for he can usually see the signal tower at the other end of the protected block he is entering.
I use NJI two-head signal masts at each turnout. The top head refers to conditions on the main (or straight through) route, and the bottom head refers to conditions on the diverging route. The logic setting the aspects depicts both switch position and block occupancy.
So . . . when approaching a turnout and the signal shows green over red, the indication is that the switch is closed and the next two blocks of the through route are clear. When the signal shows yellow over red, the switch is closed and the next block is clear BUT the following block is occupied; the next signal encountered might be red. If the signal shows flashing yellow over red, the switch is closed and the next block is clear BUT the following switch is thrown against traffic (i.e., trailing point); the next signal encountered will be red.
Similarly . . . if the signal shows red over green, then the switch is thrown and the next two blocks of the diverging route are clear. Same story for red over yellow and so forth.
Red over red means absolute stop. It indicates that either 1) the switch is closed but the next block of the through route is occupied, or 2) the switch is thrown but the next block of the diverging route is occupied.
These indications reflect traffic approaching a facing point turnout. Indications for trailing point turnouts are similar. In all cases, the top head reflects main line or through traffic; the bottom head reflects diverging route traffic; regardless of direction of travel.
I prepared a chart with all the possible aspects (or almost all) and posted it in my layout build thread. But it was quite a while ago when I was using that bucket of photos website to post stuff. I don't know if it is still there. I'll check and see if I can update it.
Our club layout is set up very much like Paul's, even down to using the RR-CirKits detectors and Tower Controllers to interface it to Loconet. Modified NORAC rules are followed - the whole thing was designed by the signal guy from a local regional railroad. Not all potential indications are used - and aside from a small group who all work for the same railroad, no others are professional railroaders who would know all of them. So we too follow simplified indications with most people knowing little more than stop and not-stop.