jeffhergertI like signals, but on my layout they are imaginary. The wayside signals are dummy, but located following my prototype's practice. The signal system imagined is ABS with a couple of manual interlockings.
I like to suggest to people using TWC that they pretend they have ABS. It makes no difference in the track warrants they issue, other then to allow following moves in the same limits, very handy on a model railroad.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
I suppose there's more than one way to skin a cat.
Though 98% of cats polled thought that was WAY too many ways! The other 2% were busy chewing on rodents.
Ed
Ed, MSS is way more complex than what I do, way more than I need. It would not benefit me at all.
In most cases I only have one mainline block between each interlocking.
My interlockings really work, meaning that once the route is set, and the train enters interlocking territory, turnouts cannot be accidently thrown under the train.
And I have ATC (automatic train control), if an engineer runs a red signal, his train shuts down and stops......
and I have wireless radio throttles, all with DC.........
Sheldon
7j43k Sheldon, I think Advance Approach is neat, 'cause I like flashing lights. Aesthetics, you know. Actually, you don't have to use it. My signals aren't set up for it. There're just plain old red, yellow, and green. You model the East, huh? And they didn't have ABS signaling? Wow, who knew? Double track? Bi-directional? CTC? Sounds perfect for an ABS base. Ed Oh, yeah. You're running DC? Seems to me MSS would still work. With a little help.
Sheldon,
I think Advance Approach is neat, 'cause I like flashing lights. Aesthetics, you know. Actually, you don't have to use it. My signals aren't set up for it. There're just plain old red, yellow, and green.
You model the East, huh? And they didn't have ABS signaling? Wow, who knew?
Double track? Bi-directional? CTC? Sounds perfect for an ABS base.
Oh, yeah. You're running DC? Seems to me MSS would still work. With a little help.
Ed, you misunderstand a little. Eastern roads use/used ABS, BUT, back in the day, signal systems were less standardized then they are in modern railroading.
B&O, PRR, C&O, N&W, etc, all had their own special systems with different aspects and rules.
CTC uses/can use, ABS signals between interlockings - assumming there is enough distance between interlocking points to have additional blocks - we are taking about the crowed east....
But on a model layout, if you make a block twice the length of a train, pretty short by prototype standards, how many blocks are you going to have before the next interlocking, siding, junction or other control point that would require an absolute signal on the prototype?
Again, there is a big difference between CTC and non CTC trackage with only ABS.
Or like like the PRR who used "tower control" on most of the system.
And again, there is a big difference between what was done in 1953, and how it is done today.
dehusman Another system, that is probably the least modeled, is "rule 251" territory or "double track". It has two main tracks and operated with current of traffic (all the trains go one way on one track and the other way on the other track. It has ABS in the current of traffic and NO signals for running against the current of traffic. It was one of the most common signal systems from WW1 to the 1970's or 80's, especially on routes with a lot of passenger trains. It can handle a HUGE volume of trains (as long as nothing goes wrong or stops on one of the tracks). In the 60's, 70's and 80's the railroads converted most of the double track (each track signalled in one direction) to two main tracks (both tracks signalled in both directions) in order to increase capacity and flexibility.
Another system, that is probably the least modeled, is "rule 251" territory or "double track". It has two main tracks and operated with current of traffic (all the trains go one way on one track and the other way on the other track. It has ABS in the current of traffic and NO signals for running against the current of traffic. It was one of the most common signal systems from WW1 to the 1970's or 80's, especially on routes with a lot of passenger trains. It can handle a HUGE volume of trains (as long as nothing goes wrong or stops on one of the tracks). In the 60's, 70's and 80's the railroads converted most of the double track (each track signalled in one direction) to two main tracks (both tracks signalled in both directions) in order to increase capacity and flexibility.
I like signals, but on my layout they are imaginary. The wayside signals are dummy, but located following my prototype's practice. The signal system imagined is ABS with a couple of manual interlockings. (I DO like the time table and train order system of operation.)
I also have two main track, signalled (still imaginary) for current of traffic operation. Uniform Code of Operating Rules 1968 edition Rule 450-453, not Rule 251 as appears in most rule books. The point where two tracks becomes one gives me a chance to issue the Form V Check of Trains train order.
Jeff
7j43k ATLANTIC CENTRAL And their drawings do show more than two current detection sections per signal block? Sheldon, The reason you see more than one current detector per block on those drawings is because MSS is designed for Free-mo*. If you are not doing Free-mo, you only need ONE current detector per block. Ed *With Free-mo, you might have 5 modules built by 5 guys in one block. You would only need one current detector, but which guy is the guy who's gonna be responsible for it. Thus, EVERYONE has to have a current detector. Free-mo is designed so that the modules can be assembled in almost any possible way. To maintain this flexibility, MSS equipped Free-mo modules all have to have current detectors. For a "regular" layout, you'd only need one.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL And their drawings do show more than two current detection sections per signal block?
And their drawings do show more than two current detection sections per signal block?
The reason you see more than one current detector per block on those drawings is because MSS is designed for Free-mo*. If you are not doing Free-mo, you only need ONE current detector per block.
*With Free-mo, you might have 5 modules built by 5 guys in one block. You would only need one current detector, but which guy is the guy who's gonna be responsible for it. Thus, EVERYONE has to have a current detector.
Free-mo is designed so that the modules can be assembled in almost any possible way. To maintain this flexibility, MSS equipped Free-mo modules all have to have current detectors. For a "regular" layout, you'd only need one.
OK, I get that now also.
Please forgive me, I'm not into the portable module thing at all......
My mind never goes to the needs of those guys.....
Ed, armed with the new understanding that it is a multi layer system and that the first layer is just detection, I looked at the web site again and I get it now.
But here is the thing, first it is geared toward modern ABS systems used on the prototype today.
Yes, I'm sure CTC or tower interlockings can be intergrated into it, as the signal logic is a different "layer".
But who has a model railroad that needs "advance approach" (flashing yellow) indications? Who has that much space? That long of a main line? Especially between interlocking points? I'm getting ready to rebuild 8-10 scale miles of double track in 1700 sq feet - I don't have room for advance approach ABS......
I don't even use every possible "approach" (yellow) indication on my system, (I fake half of them).
I model the 1950's, "advance approach" was often done with seperate "approach" signals, not by flashing the second block out.
I run long trains, in relatively tight intervals, my blocks are long, like the trains, all that would never work. Some selective compression is needed.
But again, it has a lot to do with the era and locale you are modeling. I'm modeling the east, in the 50's, double track, bi directional, CTC.
And my control system is DC.........
ATLANTIC CENTRAL . . . resistor wheels or tail end resistor/lighted cars.
. . . resistor wheels or tail end resistor/lighted cars.
This is my plan. The layout is still under construction with tons of stuff to do other than fiddling with the signals. I have set up, wired, and tested the signal and detection ststems using locos and lighted passenger cars (including club cars with lighted drumheads on the rear end). Everything functions as expected. I plan to add FREDs to the freight trains that do not have resistor wheelsets or current-drawing features. Seems easy enough; plus the added panache of working FREDs.
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
gregc of course there is no way to recognize when part of a train w/o a car drawing current is left in a block w/o a loco.
of course there is no way to recognize when part of a train w/o a car drawing current is left in a block w/o a loco.
Yes, that is unfortunate.
I see two ways that can happen:
1. A train parts because of bad trackwork and/or poor coupler installation. I would recommend fixing that, and it won't happen again.
2. Part of a train is left on the main, while a loco switches a siding. It should be noted that as long as the track switch is thrown for the siding, signals will go to red. If the switch is thrown to the main, and the loco is on the main, the loco will be detected. There COULD be a problem if part of the train is left on the main AND the loco ducks into the siding AND the switch is thrown to the main. How often is that going to happen?
I do not think this problem (#2, above) has been addressed in MSS. Yet. I seems to me one could put a couple of "extra" optical detectors on the main where a cut of cars might be left.
By the way, you CAN put resistors on wheelsets and use MSS. If you choose.
gregc ATLANTIC CENTRAL Ed, I have looked at that site/product several times and I wish I could say I understand it? If I am understanding it correctly, it requires multiple detectors for each signaled block? Seems that would be expensive? MSS is designed to work with only a loco drawing current. It uses a current detector for each block to immediately recognize when a loco enters a new block and optical detectors at the block boundaries to recognize when a train is straddling two blocks. when a loco leaves a block, the previously occupied block is not recognized as clear until the optical dectector at the boundary is no longer active. another way of looking at it is that a block is recognized as as occupied when either current is drawn within the block or an optical detector is active at the boundary. This means a train w/o a car drawing current can be backed into a block and the block will be recognized as occupied. of course there is no way to recognize when part of a train w/o a car drawing current is left in a block w/o a loco.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Ed, I have looked at that site/product several times and I wish I could say I understand it? If I am understanding it correctly, it requires multiple detectors for each signaled block? Seems that would be expensive?
If I am understanding it correctly, it requires multiple detectors for each signaled block? Seems that would be expensive?
MSS is designed to work with only a loco drawing current.
It uses a current detector for each block to immediately recognize when a loco enters a new block and optical detectors at the block boundaries to recognize when a train is straddling two blocks.
when a loco leaves a block, the previously occupied block is not recognized as clear until the optical dectector at the boundary is no longer active.
another way of looking at it is that a block is recognized as as occupied when either current is drawn within the block or an optical detector is active at the boundary. This means a train w/o a car drawing current can be backed into a block and the block will be recognized as occupied.
Greg, thanks for that explaination, it makes perfect sense explained that way, on their web site not so much.
That's a lot of work/expense to go thru just to avoid resistor wheels or tail end resistor/lighted cars.
And all it does is provide the detection logic? Then you still need your signal logic?
OK, I get it.
What I do is much simpler, at least to me. But all my signal logic is hard wired thru relays, not "programable". I do not have seperate layers for detection and signal logic. I use inductive detectors. Those boards have dry contact relays which drive the signal circuits directly. The signal logic goes thru relay contacts that mirror the position of every turnout. I have about 300 ice cube relays.......but they only cost me about a $1 each - wire is cheap.
But again, all my signals are interlocking signals.
Thanks,
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Ed, I have looked at that site/product several times and I wish I could say I understand it? If I am understanding it correctly, it requires multiple detectors for each signaled block? Seems that would be expensive? Please fill me in. My system uses no solid state logic, and lacks what appears to be lots of "layers"? And again, what I am doing appears to be just the opposite, I am only modeling the interlocking or "absolute" signals. I use inductive detectors, but not resistor wheel sets. I simply run every train with a lighted/resistance tail car - but I do model the "caboose" era. Again, please explain a little, I would like to understand what they are doing. Their web photos look more wiring intense than my hard wired relay logic? Sheldon
Ed,
I have looked at that site/product several times and I wish I could say I understand it?
Please fill me in.
My system uses no solid state logic, and lacks what appears to be lots of "layers"?
And again, what I am doing appears to be just the opposite, I am only modeling the interlocking or "absolute" signals.
I use inductive detectors, but not resistor wheel sets. I simply run every train with a lighted/resistance tail car - but I do model the "caboose" era.
Again, please explain a little, I would like to understand what they are doing. Their web photos look more wiring intense than my hard wired relay logic?
It requires one current detector per block, and one optical detector per block. Not particularly expensive, in my opinion.
Besides the detection system, there is also the logic layer, which is "entirely" based on how various wires in RJ45 cables are connected at junction points.
Yes, MSS is basically an ABS signal system. As such, it only does block occupancy, and not such things as routing indication*. BUT. I believe it CAN accept such things, including CTC. As I said, I'm planning on building an interlocking, and it will be plopped right down in the middle of double-tracked bi-directional ABS signaling. And it will be integrated with it. Because it will be a model of a UP crossover in the middle of Nowhere, Wyoming, there will be no tower. Control will be "remote".
I think this is the best presentation of how things work:
http://www.modularsignalsystem.info/MSSUserGuide1.pdf
http://www.modularsignalsystem.info/MSSUserGuide2.pdf
*That's not entirely true. With MSS, if a switch is set against you, you will get a red. THAT is not block occupancy.
rrinker Another case of TANSTAAFL - there ain't no such thing as a free lunch. No resistor wheelsetson cars, but you need THREE detection devices per block including one that is the single type you'd need for the resistor wheels anyway. --Randy
Another case of TANSTAAFL - there ain't no such thing as a free lunch. No resistor wheelsetson cars, but you need THREE detection devices per block including one that is the single type you'd need for the resistor wheels anyway.
--Randy
Actually, Randy, you only need TWO detection devices per block.
Another case of TANSTAAFL - there ain't no such thing as a free lunch. No resistor wheelsetson cars, but you need THREE detection devices per block including one that is the single type you'd need for the resistor wheels anyway. I can see the utility for N scale where plastic wheels still seem to rule the day, it incredibly easy to add resistors to metal wheelsets in HO and larger.
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
ATLANTIC CENTRALEd, I have looked at that site/product several times and I wish I could say I understand it? If I am understanding it correctly, it requires multiple detectors for each signaled block? Seems that would be expensive?
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
Well, the Maryland and Pennsylvania RR was dark. So I don't use signals. Some where along the way I'll have road crossing signals, but that's it.
I think it's a neat thing to do, although as I read here, everyone has to do a modified version. Way down on my list of things is to represent the B&O bridge over the Baltimore terminal of the Ma&Pa. If I do, I'll put a couple of signals on it. They won't be real, but I'll rig up a system for them to automatically change.
Paul
7j43k I use MSS, which is an ABS signal system. There are no resistors on wheelsets. There is no computer. There is very little electronics to understand--just follow the directions. I am hoping to build an interlocking, someday. I plan for it to be a double cross-over. Ed
I use MSS, which is an ABS signal system. There are no resistors on wheelsets. There is no computer. There is very little electronics to understand--just follow the directions.
I am hoping to build an interlocking, someday. I plan for it to be a double cross-over.
Our club layout is set up very much like Paul's, even down to using the RR-CirKits detectors and Tower Controllers to interface it to Loconet. Modified NORAC rules are followed - the whole thing was designed by the signal guy from a local regional railroad. Not all potential indications are used - and aside from a small group who all work for the same railroad, no others are professional railroaders who would know all of them. So we too follow simplified indications with most people knowing little more than stop and not-stop.
My signaling system is also based on routing and not so much on speed, but a yellow aspect could indicate 'slow down because the next signal might be red', and I suppose that could set speed limits.
There are no intermediate or sub-block signals. Most blocks are rather short, and if the operator/engineer knows what he's looking for he can usually see the signal tower at the other end of the protected block he is entering.
I use NJI two-head signal masts at each turnout. The top head refers to conditions on the main (or straight through) route, and the bottom head refers to conditions on the diverging route. The logic setting the aspects depicts both switch position and block occupancy.
So . . . when approaching a turnout and the signal shows green over red, the indication is that the switch is closed and the next two blocks of the through route are clear. When the signal shows yellow over red, the switch is closed and the next block is clear BUT the following block is occupied; the next signal encountered might be red. If the signal shows flashing yellow over red, the switch is closed and the next block is clear BUT the following switch is thrown against traffic (i.e., trailing point); the next signal encountered will be red.
Similarly . . . if the signal shows red over green, then the switch is thrown and the next two blocks of the diverging route are clear. Same story for red over yellow and so forth.
Red over red means absolute stop. It indicates that either 1) the switch is closed but the next block of the through route is occupied, or 2) the switch is thrown but the next block of the diverging route is occupied.
These indications reflect traffic approaching a facing point turnout. Indications for trailing point turnouts are similar. In all cases, the top head reflects main line or through traffic; the bottom head reflects diverging route traffic; regardless of direction of travel.
I prepared a chart with all the possible aspects (or almost all) and posted it in my layout build thread. But it was quite a while ago when I was using that bucket of photos website to post stuff. I don't know if it is still there. I'll check and see if I can update it.
Paul, it is interesting that your choice of signal aspect use is basically the same as mine.
I have skipped having any "real" intermediate block signals, the distances between interlockings do not support that, but I have a little trick that makes it look more interesting.
I have approach signals half way through each mainline block. So when the interlocking signal is red/red/red, the approach signal shows yellow. On any other interlocking indication, the approach signals show green.
I am interested in signalling. At my club, we need it but we're so concentrated on building our new layout (and keeping it running) that we've really slacked off on signalling. We started back in 1999 with the DS54/BS-1 combo from Digitrax for block detection, but quickly switched over to the BDL16, which became the BDL162 then BDL168. However, we have found these boards to be inadequate to our needs. On all new construction, we're using the Tower Controllers (BOD's) from RR-CirKits and are slowly retrofitting the older parts of the layout with them. They are much more reliable than the BDL series.
We run two divisions. One is a doubletrack mainline to be signalled in one direction per track. The other is a single track main with passing sidings. Our mainline blocks are roughly 15 feet long (approx. thirty 40' cars) and our trains are roughly 16.5'. All cabooses and passenger cars must have "detection", either a resistor or a light. With freight cars we recommend it, but few actually do so.
The idea is that the signals will be 100% automatic between interlockings. At interlockings, the signals will be controllable by the dispatcher, but normally fleeted green.
As for aspects, we're going to cheat a bit. We'll use regular NORAC signals, but change their use a smidge. Instead of being totally speed based, it's more routing based. For example, take a simple interlocking of a double track main with crossovers and a switch into a yard. The interlocking will be guarded by triple head signal masts. The top head is for passing straight through the interlocking. Green/Red/Red ("Clear") would mean pass at normal speed. Yellow/Red/Red ("Approach") means to slow and be prepared to stop at the next signal.
The 2nd signal head is for the crossover. Red/Green/Red ("Medium Clear") would mean slow through the turnout and then accelerate to normal speed. Red/Yellow/Red ("Medium Approach") would mean slow through the turnout and be prepared to stop at the next signal.
The 3rd signal head is for leaving the mainline in this situation. If it showed Red/Red/Yellow ("Restricting"), it means you are heading off the mainline and into the yard. Red/Red/Red means stop.
For the most part, we're going to have just these 6 signal indications. We have to keep it simple as our members are not employees who do this for a living (well, other than the couple real engineers in the club). The operators will not have to memorize much. In fact, I will tell them that they only have to really know two signals: Stop and Not Stop. I'll be happy if I can get them to follow that.
I use signals only to let me know that turnouts are aligned properly for a route.
.
I have also used them to let me know the polarity on a reverse loop section is selected properly.
Nothing to do with CTC or actual train control. That works well for me.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Normally with two main tracks you don't have passing sidings (don't need them) you only have crossovers. Yes you operate in both directions on both mains, but its not the same as two parallel single tracks.
But if you have two mains and they are bidirectionally signaled then for an ops session one could set up a "wrong main" scenario in which both mains are used for traffic in both directions, it can make an op session more interesting or just over complicate it.
Steve
If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!
NWP SWPI am intrigued by the bidirectional two track main idea, it's nice because it retains the operation of a single track main and sidings.
Not really. The whole point of having two main tracks is to avoid the operation of a single main track and sidings.
I want signals too, but like bigdaddy, no tengo knowledge or enough electronic skill. Maybe I can make headway off of further posts.....
I'm beginning to realize that Windows 10 and sound decoders have a lot in common. There are so many things you have to change in order to get them to work the way you want.
Glue resistors? Oh, for detector wheel sets - yes, you just glue them to the axle, and use conductive paint. No soldering - I doubt you could solder them without destroying the resistor, because the metal wheels/axle will suck the heat out like crazy.
I use the Locktite CA that comes in a bottle with two squeeze pads on either side of the spout - it is super easy to dispense a tiny little drop. With the little surface mount resistors you use, it is important to have a TINY drop of glue, because if it gets on the connections on the edge, it will insulate them and you'll never get the resistor to work. To form the connection, there are several types of conductive paint, but I use the silver type - it actually has silver in it, and as you can imagine, it is not cheap. However, a small bottle does hundreds of wheel sets. Just don't spill it!