Atchee ATLANTIC CENTRAL SouthPenn Duplex receptacles are rated at 1.5 amp for calculating how many you can have on one breaker. A 15 amp breaker can have 10 duplex receptacles on it. Something that is plugged into a receptacle is not counted. But with your multiple outlets on a plug, it would be a judgment call by the inspector. Most would consider it an extension cord. If you use Wiremold and it is hard-wired into the circuit, then it is counted. WRONG, we just went through this in another thread, "power for new layout room". While state and local goverments can and do create their own exceptions, the foundation is all based on the NEC. NOTHING in the NEC limits the number of receptacles on a 15 amp or 20 amp circuit breaker. The limitation is how many square feet of the building each circuit can supply with general power. Go to that thread and read what I posted, then go find a copy of the NEC and learn it before you go giving advice. In that thread I posted the applicable NEC articles, you can look it up. Sheldon If you read article 210.11 in the NEC it tells you that required circuits must be provided to supply the calculated load. It says absolutely nothing about how many square feet a circuit a residential circuit may supply. (It DOES tell you provided receptacles in a public or commercial building must be accounted for((which limits the number of receptacles on a circuit)) but, again, does not tell you how many Sq Ft the circuit may serve) The 3 VA/Sq Ft figure is used to calculate the electric service size. Some local jurisdictions choose to apply the 3 VA/Sq Ft to what a circuit may supply but the NEC doesn't. IF you sit down and do a load calculation for the general lighting requirements (and no other loads) in a 2000 Sq. Ft. house, you'd find it is less than 20 AMPs. Not reasonable, but 2 15 AMP circuits can handle this. (1st 3000 VA at 100%, 2nd 3000 VA at 35%) I won't argue the point. Get on any electrical forum where pros participate and tell them there is a sq ft limit on a resi circuit set by the NEC- - then stand back. I really think the moderators need to decide this stuff isn't fodder for their forums and close the threads with advice to seek professional guidance. JMVHO
ATLANTIC CENTRAL SouthPenn Duplex receptacles are rated at 1.5 amp for calculating how many you can have on one breaker. A 15 amp breaker can have 10 duplex receptacles on it. Something that is plugged into a receptacle is not counted. But with your multiple outlets on a plug, it would be a judgment call by the inspector. Most would consider it an extension cord. If you use Wiremold and it is hard-wired into the circuit, then it is counted. WRONG, we just went through this in another thread, "power for new layout room". While state and local goverments can and do create their own exceptions, the foundation is all based on the NEC. NOTHING in the NEC limits the number of receptacles on a 15 amp or 20 amp circuit breaker. The limitation is how many square feet of the building each circuit can supply with general power. Go to that thread and read what I posted, then go find a copy of the NEC and learn it before you go giving advice. In that thread I posted the applicable NEC articles, you can look it up. Sheldon
SouthPenn Duplex receptacles are rated at 1.5 amp for calculating how many you can have on one breaker. A 15 amp breaker can have 10 duplex receptacles on it. Something that is plugged into a receptacle is not counted. But with your multiple outlets on a plug, it would be a judgment call by the inspector. Most would consider it an extension cord. If you use Wiremold and it is hard-wired into the circuit, then it is counted.
Duplex receptacles are rated at 1.5 amp for calculating how many you can have on one breaker. A 15 amp breaker can have 10 duplex receptacles on it. Something that is plugged into a receptacle is not counted. But with your multiple outlets on a plug, it would be a judgment call by the inspector. Most would consider it an extension cord. If you use Wiremold and it is hard-wired into the circuit, then it is counted.
WRONG, we just went through this in another thread, "power for new layout room".
While state and local goverments can and do create their own exceptions, the foundation is all based on the NEC.
NOTHING in the NEC limits the number of receptacles on a 15 amp or 20 amp circuit breaker. The limitation is how many square feet of the building each circuit can supply with general power.
Go to that thread and read what I posted, then go find a copy of the NEC and learn it before you go giving advice. In that thread I posted the applicable NEC articles, you can look it up.
Sheldon
If you read article 210.11 in the NEC it tells you that required circuits must be provided to supply the calculated load. It says absolutely nothing about how many square feet a circuit a residential circuit may supply. (It DOES tell you provided receptacles in a public or commercial building must be accounted for((which limits the number of receptacles on a circuit)) but, again, does not tell you how many Sq Ft the circuit may serve)
The 3 VA/Sq Ft figure is used to calculate the electric service size. Some local jurisdictions choose to apply the 3 VA/Sq Ft to what a circuit may supply but the NEC doesn't.
IF you sit down and do a load calculation for the general lighting requirements (and no other loads) in a 2000 Sq. Ft. house, you'd find it is less than 20 AMPs. Not reasonable, but 2 15 AMP circuits can handle this. (1st 3000 VA at 100%, 2nd 3000 VA at 35%)
I won't argue the point. Get on any electrical forum where pros participate and tell them there is a sq ft limit on a resi circuit set by the NEC- - then stand back.
I really think the moderators need to decide this stuff isn't fodder for their forums and close the threads with advice to seek professional guidance. JMVHO
If it was only that simple.
The code requires a long list of calulated load circuits in residences. But in addition to those special circuits (bathrooms, kitchens, fixed appliances, etc) it allows the general lighting and receptacle load to be figured at 3 VA per sq ft.
And again, there is nothing in the code to prevent me from putting more than 10 receptacles on a general receptacle circuit, as several people have suggested in both of these threads.
As per the example I used in the other thread, two or three average bedrooms in any average house can be on one 15 amp or 20 amp general lighting/receptacle circuit, and there will most surely be more than 10 receptacles on that circuit based on the required spacing/wall coverage rules. Why? Because that circuit needs only to be calulated based on the 3 VA per sq ft load.
Article 220 is titled "Branch-Circuit, Feeder, and Service Calculations", because it applies to calculating all three, not just the service size.
And the part of 210.11 you left out says "in accordance with 220.3" the very section of the code I quoted.
And again, 220.3 (10) spells out clearly that residential general use outlets (and by extension the circuit that feeds them) are subject to the 3 VA load caluclation and I quote "No additional load calculations shall be required for such outlets".
So you need to suppy 3 VA per square feet of general lighting and receptacle power. A 15 amp circuit is 1800 VA, how many squre feet can it serve? 600
The de-rating of part of the load that you quoted applies to the service/feeder size for the building........
SouthPennAnd working in government-owned buildings was like working on another planet. They had their own way of doing things. Even the local townships have their own rules.
.
Pfffffft!
All this seems simple when compared to trying to make a workshop compliant for servicing Compressed Natural Gas powered vehicles.
Now there is where you will run into some crazy rules!
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Lived in a town once that BX was illegal and lived in a city where romex was not allowed.
carl425 I would never tolerate benchwork that would move under the force required to insert or remove a plug from a receptacle.
I would never tolerate benchwork that would move under the force required to insert or remove a plug from a receptacle.
+1
Sturdy work boxes (metal or plastic) secured to solid benchwork, grounded 3-plug duplex outlets, metal or plastic cover plates, solid copper wire, romex or other modern sheathing, approved wire staples and/or clamps, sensible attention to electric loading and daisy chaining, cable routing noted and known so that future construction will not puncture romex with screws or nails or sawzall . . . should be no big concerns to a serious model railroader and should be safe when the grandkids are around.
If the local building inspector gets involved, the easiest way to win an argument with him would be to do exactly as he instructs.
Good luck.
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
MisterBeasley prefer to use solid, wall mounted recepticles. I always find that when inserting or removing plugs from bench mounted recepticles, the resulting pressure tends to pull the benchwork in or out a bit.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
I prefer to use solid, wall mounted recepticles. I always find that when inserting or removing plugs from bench mounted recepticles, the resulting pressure tends to pull the benchwork in or out a bit. I like my plugs more solid.
When working around my layout, I use a large, heavy extension cord to reach the wall-mounted outlets.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
SouthPenn 7j43k SouthPenn First, every locality has it's own rules for electrical wiring. Quoting rules is fruitless. I'll be sure to tell that to the next electrical inspector who quotes me a rule. Using BX is overkill and is usually required in commercial buildings. No, it is not usually required in commercial buildings. See Article 320 of the NEC. Ed Maybe I should have been more specific. Quoting rules on this forum is fruitless as I don't know where the poster lives. The commercial buildings and offices I worked on were inside city limits. They had their own rules. And working in government-owned buildings was like working on another planet. They had their own way of doing things. Even the local townships have their own rules. But that was over 40 years ago. Times have changed. It's gotten worse.
7j43k SouthPenn First, every locality has it's own rules for electrical wiring. Quoting rules is fruitless. I'll be sure to tell that to the next electrical inspector who quotes me a rule. Using BX is overkill and is usually required in commercial buildings. No, it is not usually required in commercial buildings. See Article 320 of the NEC. Ed
SouthPenn First, every locality has it's own rules for electrical wiring. Quoting rules is fruitless.
First, every locality has it's own rules for electrical wiring. Quoting rules is fruitless.
I'll be sure to tell that to the next electrical inspector who quotes me a rule.
Using BX is overkill and is usually required in commercial buildings.
Maybe I should have been more specific. Quoting rules on this forum is fruitless as I don't know where the poster lives.
The commercial buildings and offices I worked on were inside city limits. They had their own rules. And working in government-owned buildings was like working on another planet. They had their own way of doing things. Even the local townships have their own rules. But that was over 40 years ago. Times have changed. It's gotten worse.
SouthPenn,
Commerical and industrial work is a whole different world than residential work - both then and now.
A few noteable examples of local rules that are stricter than the NEC:
City of baltimore - ALL commercial buildings are wired in EMT or armored cable (not bx).
City of Chicago (Cook County) - not sure if it is still this way, but at one time ALL buildings had to be wired in EMT or Armored Cable.
Both of the cities above have one thing in common - they both burned to the ground in the early days of electricity.
But none of that has anything to do with some guy who needs a few receptacles in his train room.
Safety is different. If the Romex is under the layout and not easily accessible, it should be fine. Use caution when drilling into your layout, you could hit the wires. But you can hit the Romex in walls too. Using BX is overkill and is usually required in commercial buildings.
Using plastic boxes and covers is fine if it passes local rules. You cannot get shocked or electrocuted from plastic so there is no grounding required. If you believe you will be smashing the covers and boxes, then use metal. But make sure they are properly grounded.
You could change the standard breaker to a GFCI or AFCI for another layer of protection. If you have older power tools with brushes, the AFCI might become a nuisance. The 'A' in AFCI is for arching which the old power tools do plenty of.
carl425 7j43k My recollection is the layout will be a piece of custom furniture. And that the "furniture" was going to plug into a (perhaps newly installed) GFI receptacle. Not so much because of potential dampness, but more along the lines of it's a sort of "workshop". GFI's are better than not-GFI's. I thought the GFCI recommendation was because of the wet scenery materials.
7j43k My recollection is the layout will be a piece of custom furniture. And that the "furniture" was going to plug into a (perhaps newly installed) GFI receptacle. Not so much because of potential dampness, but more along the lines of it's a sort of "workshop". GFI's are better than not-GFI's.
I thought the GFCI recommendation was because of the wet scenery materials.
Nope. It's there to keep you from getting electrocuted if you make a mistake. With or without water present.
BTW, one of the main reasons for this "power strip/entension cord/wired furniture" was to avoid climbing under the benchwork. Instead of a GFCI outlet at the wall, how about a GFCI as the first outlet in my chain?
7j43kMy recollection is the layout will be a piece of custom furniture. And that the "furniture" was going to plug into a (perhaps newly installed) GFI receptacle. Not so much because of potential dampness, but more along the lines of it's a sort of "workshop". GFI's are better than not-GFI's.
jjdamnitI understand these are "convenience" outlets. What will you be powering and what is the potential max amperage load?
These outlets are for working on the layout. There location would make them unsightly to leave things plugged in all the time. As highly skilled as I am, I can still only operate one tool at a time in a single location.
Worst case would be track laying where I'm using a Dremel while my 35-watt soldering iron is plugged in.
This outlet is one of only two that is on an extra 15-amp circuit I had installed when my office and train room were son's and daughter's bedrooms. She had a habit of plugging in a hair straightening iron while running a blowdrier with CRT TV's on in both bedrooms.
Today the outlet in my office supports the UPS that runs the computer, monitor, Ethernet switch, speakers and my Sprog :). With the music playing the UPS reports a load of 144 watts.
Sheldon,
My recollection is the layout will be a piece of custom furniture. And that the "furniture" was going to plug into a (perhaps newly installed) GFI receptacle. Not so much because of potential dampness, but more along the lines of it's a sort of "workshop". GFI's are better than not-GFI's.
I suppose we could get into AFCI's, too. In fact, I think we should. EVERYONE!!! The GFI receptacle I said to install has turned into this:
https://www.amazon.com/Leviton-AGTR1-W-SmartlockPro-Function-Receptacle/dp/B01CG8MP9W/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?ie=UTF8&qid=1527451033&sr=8-1-spons&keywords=afci+receptacle&psc=1
Do it!
Also, I'm not gonna be there to supervise the electrical installation. And I don't know whether it will be done to perfection. Etc. Etc.
I'm approaching this as: they're gonna do it, anyway. let's try to make it better.
Ed
7j43kGet yourself a copy of "Wiring Simplied". First
does this apply to non-house wiring, the topic of this thread?
i've wired up a garage, inspected by the town
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
gregc 7j43k Even better would be to use flexible steel conduit by this you mean BX cable? I thought the purpose of BX cable is to protect workers who might be cutting through walls during demolition who might cut through an unintentionally live cable. why would BX be better? it has a limited radius
7j43k Even better would be to use flexible steel conduit
by this you mean BX cable? I thought the purpose of BX cable is to protect workers who might be cutting through walls during demolition who might cut through an unintentionally live cable. why would BX be better? it has a limited radius
No. Flexible steel conduit looks like big BX, and it comes empty. You add your own wire. BX would probably work too. Or MC.
No. BX is not to protect workers who..... It is designed for exposed work. Romex can only be installed exposed if it cannot receive physical damage. Around here, that's interpreted to mean "hardly ever".
i was thinking of nailing up some blue plastic electrical boxes on the backside of the L-girders connecter with romex and use a 3-prong power cord from an old microwave to connect to a wall outlet.
Get yourself a copy of "Wiring Simplied". First.
7j43k I'm noting here that I'm not endorsing what you're doing. But. You should be using romex clamps, as pictured above. You should be running a ground wire to the metal box, and to the receptacle. You should be doing everything in "a neat and workmanlike manner". Get the book "Wiring Simplified". Make sure anything you do doesn't violate the concepts you read about in the book. The receptacle you're plugging this assembly into should be a GFI receptacle. If you do all of that, I guess I can accept it. Ed PS: If you're mounting the boxes onto a surface, don't use plastic plates, as in the picture above. Use a Raco 864, or equivalent:
I'm noting here that I'm not endorsing what you're doing.
But.
You should be using romex clamps, as pictured above.
You should be running a ground wire to the metal box, and to the receptacle.
You should be doing everything in "a neat and workmanlike manner".
Get the book "Wiring Simplified". Make sure anything you do doesn't violate the concepts you read about in the book.
The receptacle you're plugging this assembly into should be a GFI receptacle.
If you do all of that, I guess I can accept it.
PS: If you're mounting the boxes onto a surface, don't use plastic plates, as in the picture above. Use a Raco 864, or equivalent:
Ed, are we assuming it is in a basement? The OP did not sare the layout location with us. I ask regarding the need for a GFCI?
And those rules have "progressed" over the years........
jjdamnitPractically you are opening yourself up to a fire hazard.
how? would this be a problem if you use romex?
and how much current at 120V are you likely to draw. A 10A booster supplying 15V is only 150W or 1.25 A at 120V.
7j43kEven better would be to use flexible steel conduit
Still another way to go is with something like Plugmold:
It comes in various lengths, and with or without a plug and cord.
jjdamnit I would use individual wires: solid core 12ga; Black, White & Green, rather than Romex®.
No. The outer sheathing of the romex will help protect the wires. And thus you. This is 120V.
Even better would be to use flexible steel conduit. It's bendy, so it's easy to install. And it will do a better job of protecting the conductors.
gregc 7j43k PS: If you're mounting the boxes onto a surface, don't use plastic plates, as in the picture above. Use a Raco 864, or equivalent: why? is this required to meet code? i'm thinking of doing something similar to carl so that I can control power to the layout with one switch.
7j43k PS: If you're mounting the boxes onto a surface, don't use plastic plates, as in the picture above. Use a Raco 864, or equivalent:
why? is this required to meet code?
i'm thinking of doing something similar to carl so that I can control power to the layout with one switch.
No. The ones I cited are smaller, and hang over the edge less. They often come with rounded corners, so they're less "pointy". And, being made of steel, they won't tend to break. Like plastic.
Another option instead of using the Wiremold boxes is to use regular 4 square boxes, such as a Raco 190:
And then use one of these covers:
They are Raco 902C and 907C, respectively. You'll get a good amount of room inside, they're quite sturdy, and the assembly will be 2 1/8" thick--thinner than if you use a switch box.
Hello all,
Technically what your are doing is like adding power outlets to a home entertainment center. - -technically!
Practically you are opening yourself up to a fire hazard.
I've seen some pretty scary installations similar to your situation.
What is the breaker rated for that you are plugging into- -15A, 20A?
What else is on this circuit?
I understand these are "convenience" outlets. What will you be powering and what is the potential max amperage load?
If this were my project I would:
Or...
An extension cord from the wall to what ever you are using. If you need more outlets you can put a power strip on the end.
Much cheaper and safer.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
7j43kThey DO have a provision for a clamp.
The clamp wouldn't fit behind the receptacle. Good reason for a deeper box.
7j43kPS: If you're mounting the boxes onto a surface, don't use plastic plates, as in the picture above. Use a Raco 864, or equivalent:
Romex is for inside of walls. It is not meant for surface mounting. You can use wire mold boxes like pictured and the wire mold conduit to protect the wires. Or you can use metal handy boxes and steel flex to protect the wires. The covers can be plastic, that is ok. Protecting the wire is the important thing. Also make sure you have the proper gauge wire which matches the amperage of the circuit breaker: #12 wire for 20 amp breaker. #14 wire for a 15 amp breaker. You can use #12 wire for a 15 amp breaker since the wire is rated for a higher amperage. Chances are you were never in any danger with the way your romex was before but if it had gotten damaged by a sharp piece of sheet metal or a saw or another tool it could have been a problem.
Regarding the Wiremold item in the photo:
They DO have a provision for a clamp. In the very hole you ran through. Look at the earlier photo of just such a clamp.
Wiremold makes varying depths of those boxes. Be sure to get one deep enough to hold all the wire, wire nuts, and receptacle. That one looks too shallow for my taste.
Regarding the grounding connection:
Best procedure is to have a ground wire attached to the box (there is a provision for a ground screw right there on the backplate) and to the receptacle. Wire nut them to the incoming romex ground.
You NEVER put more than one wire under a screwhead. NEVER! And the wire wraps clockwise. Only.
Be sure and get that book! It is very good at basics. Such as what I just discussed.
7j43kYou should be using romex clamps, as pictured above.
I used these: (box and cover plate were all metal)
They have no provision for clamps, but I did staple the romex immediately behind the box on the back side of the girder. Romex came into the box via the back punchout.
7j43kYou should be running a ground wire to the metal box, and to the receptacle.
Is that in addition to the ground that's included in the Romex? I did connect that ground to the green screw on the receptacle. I made a loop in the bare wire and pinched it around the ground screw with needle nose while I tightened the screw. I thought that would work better for the daisy chain than cutting it and trying to put 2 ends under the screw.
7j43kYou should be doing everything in "a neat and workmanlike manner".
Always.
7j43kThe receptacle you're plugging this assembly into should be a GFI receptacle
Didn't think of that. I'll do that next time.
Thanks.