Hi all,
I just purchased a Mantua 0-6-0 DCC & Sound loco and placed it on the track to see how it runs. Left everything at factory settings.
Speed step 1 - nothing
Speed step 2 - nothing
speed step 3 - a jerk then nothing
Speed step 4 slow jerky movement
Speed step 6 moving steady
Does anyone have one of these? Is it possible to get it to run smooth?
I called the vendor who suggested I up the voltage on the accelarate CV and "try changing the address". Confidence is LOW.
What do you guys think?
Gary
No doubt needs a good breaking in first before you fiddle with any CVs. Give it a good run for fifteen minutes in both directions at a fair speed. Then do a bit of tweaking.
If the engine has momentum settings, adjust them for a bit of momentum on both acceleration and deceleration. That will help smooth things out a bit. Don't know if your decoder has BEMF (probably not) - but one that did would help immencely.
Mark.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
The vendor tells me it's an MRC Decoder.
It also dies at every frog! I wanted to use it as a yard switcher so that's not good
Mantua + MRC = Disappointment. I would return it and hunt down a Proto 2000 0-6-0 switcher. You'll be much happier.
However, if you don't want to do that and can live w/o sound, a TCS motor-only decoder would be a great alternative and improvement. And, given the short wheel-base of a switcher, I'd opt for one that could utilize a keep-alive module so that you don't have the stall issues at the turnouts.
Mark's advice is sound though and worth a break-in period to see if motor-control improves at lower speeds.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
In fairness to Mantua and MRC, I don't think any manufacturer of a tenderless 0-6-0 or decoder will have consistent success over unpowered frogs unless it has keep-alive technology, which is a very new feature relative to the age of DCC and found in very few factory equipped DCC locos, if any.
- Douglas
Couple very good suggestions above. A TCS M1 decoder has self adjusting BEMF which in itself will create a world of difference. To solve the dead frog syndrome, a TCS M1-KA comes with the wiring already installed to easily add a stay-alive capacitor.
Hi Gary:
Good advice so far. Another option would be a LokSound Select Micro sound decoder or a LokPilot Micro non-sound decoder, either with a Loksound Power Pack keep alive.
Both decoders are tiny, but the biggest advantage to this set up is that the Power Pack keep alive is pretty small too. The Power Pack doesn't have as much 'running time' as the TCS keep alives do, but if you are only dealing with unpowered frogs they work great.
Here is one at work in a Grandt Line Box Cab with a Bull Ant drive:
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Hmmm, If it was never designed to go over a frog, I should have asked BEFORE I purchased it. Guess I'll talk to the vendor and see if he will take it back. If not the TCS it is.
I see Life Like Proto 2000 0-6-0's on EBay are they the same as Walthers ? Two Proto different 2000 products?
Doughless In fairness to Mantua and MRC, I don't think any manufacturer of a tenderless 0-6-0 or decoder will have consistent success over unpowered frogs unless it has keep-alive technology, which is a very new feature relative to the age of DCC and found in very few factory equipped DCC locos, if any.
I think that's a bit of a cop out though. Back in the day I had an American FLyer HO 4 wheel industrial switcher. Most of the turnouts were Atlas, non-powered plastic frogs - and that loco would creep around just fine. Also had an old Tyco 0-6-0, when it was made of all metal. That one ran fine too, even at slower speeds.
Being Snap-Track style turnouts, the frog was fairly small. Move up to the Custom Line turnouts with true numbered frogs and th efrog gets bigger, so more dead area for the small locos to get past. But the real solution there is to power the frogs. The smallest thing I have currently is a Bachmann 44 tonner and that made it over my previous layout's #4's without actually having to power the frogs.
If it's a newer versioon of the 0-6-0 that has a can motor like mine - it's all in the decoder. I haven't been able to test mine on rails yet, but hooked to my pure DC lab supply it starts and runs slowly and smoothly. Seller said it did not run, well, it has a Digitrax decoder installed in it, but it ran on DC for me just fine, so analog is not turned off in the decoder. It may need some help over less than perfect track because pickup oon the fireman's side is just the front driver and the center blind driver. With less than perfect track, that blind driver won;t even be touching the railhead, so it will probbaly drop power if the left hand side crosses a frog. Go the other way when the left side stays on a stock rail and it's probably OK. A keep alive of some sort will fix it. A better decoder will run smoother at low speed.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Gary,
Essentially, yes. Life Like (LL) first released the Proto 2000 line then Walthers bought the tooling some years later and put the line under their name.
The 0-6-0s were released after the LL 0-8-0s, which run very well; smooth and slow, as a switcher should. Either version should work just fine for you.
AND - I'm finding Heratage Proto 2000 - aso the same?
Proto 2000 was Life-Like's high-end / more realistic locomotive line, starting around 1988-90. Before that, most Life-Like products were 'toy train set' grade. Proto 1000 came later, and was sort of in-between - less detailed but good running engines at a lower price.
Life-Like (or at least it's model train line) was purchased by Walthers, who have continued to make improved versions of many old Life-Like engines in their "Walthers Proto" line.
The Mantua line has similarly had several owners since the original company stopped making trains around 2000. I don't know about the more recent incarnations, but the original Mantua / Tyco steam engines normally picked up power from one rail from the engine's drivers, and connected to the other rail by the tender trucks. Because of this, going over crossings or through switches could be a problem. Changing the decoder as suggested to one with 'keep alive' technology is well worth the investment, and can make an astounding difference in how the engine performs.
rrinker Doughless In fairness to Mantua and MRC, I don't think any manufacturer of a tenderless 0-6-0 or decoder will have consistent success over unpowered frogs unless it has keep-alive technology, which is a very new feature relative to the age of DCC and found in very few factory equipped DCC locos, if any. I think that's a bit of a cop out though. Back in the day I had an American FLyer HO 4 wheel industrial switcher. Most of the turnouts were Atlas, non-powered plastic frogs - and that loco would creep around just fine. Also had an old Tyco 0-6-0, when it was made of all metal. That one ran fine too, even at slower speeds. Being Snap-Track style turnouts, the frog was fairly small. Move up to the Custom Line turnouts with true numbered frogs and th efrog gets bigger, so more dead area for the small locos to get past. But the real solution there is to power the frogs. The smallest thing I have currently is a Bachmann 44 tonner and that made it over my previous layout's #4's without actually having to power the frogs. If it's a newer versioon of the 0-6-0 that has a can motor like mine - it's all in the decoder. I haven't been able to test mine on rails yet, but hooked to my pure DC lab supply it starts and runs slowly and smoothly. Seller said it did not run, well, it has a Digitrax decoder installed in it, but it ran on DC for me just fine, so analog is not turned off in the decoder. It may need some help over less than perfect track because pickup oon the fireman's side is just the front driver and the center blind driver. With less than perfect track, that blind driver won;t even be touching the railhead, so it will probbaly drop power if the left hand side crosses a frog. Go the other way when the left side stays on a stock rail and it's probably OK. A keep alive of some sort will fix it. A better decoder will run smoother at low speed. --Randy
Agreed. I was mistakenly thinking of DCC/Onboard sound locomotive decoders which are more sensitive to electrical pickup issues than regular decoders. A short wheelbase loco equipped with a silent decoder should have few problems over unpowered frogs similar to a DC loco, unless the electrical pickup system is of a less expensive design than some of the more expensive locomotives. That would be the difference between the Mantua and Proto locomotives.
The Vendor took the Mantua back no problem. Now I'm looking for a Proto 2000 DCC & Sound.
So Walthers, Life Like and Herratage Proto 2000 are all the same? They are only available on eBay from what I can find and I want to make sure I get the correct item.
A problem with the original TANK 0-6-0 (hence 0-6-0T) from Mantua was that it only picked up on the front two drivers on the left side. They used a spring-loaded assembly mounted between the two drivers. The rear left driver did not pick up. It appears they kept that system.
With the one I have, it has a lot of stalling problems. It really needs pickup to extend to the last driver. So, it's lived in a box for many years.
Well, it also needs "keep-alive", really (except that, as it is, it's a DC loco). Which would likely get you out of adding that last driver pickup.
Ed
7j43k A problem with the original TANK 0-6-0 (hence 0-6-0T) from Mantua was that it only picked up on the front two drivers on the left side. They used a spring-loaded assembly mounted between the two drivers. The rear left driver did not pick up. It appears they kept that system. With the one I have, it has a lot of stalling problems. It really needs pickup to extend to the last driver. So, it's lived in a box for many years. Well, it also needs "keep-alive", really (except that, as it is, it's a DC loco). Which would likely get you out of adding that last driver pickup. Ed
I also have the misfortune of owning a Mantua 0-6-0 with DCC and sound. Adjusting CV 2 helped some with the jerky low speed performance, but I found that the mechanism itself is part of the problem on my locomotive. Going forwards, it's relatively smooth, but when reversing something binds once per wheel revolution and the jerking comes back. I've ruled out side-rod issues.
I used brass wire to rework the pickups on the model, which would have helped the problems with pickup, if the wheels were actually all in the same plane. After reworking the pickups, I set the model on a pane of glass and saw that 3 wheels weren't touching the glass. The bent brass bearing plate in the frame is not level, and so the axles aren't properly aligned.
It now sits in a box. Maybe someday I'll see if I can rebuild it into a half-decent model of a B8a - with a completely reworked mechanism and frame.
I'd suggest that you use brass wire to add 6-wheel pickup, adjust CV 2, and add Keep Alive. That should provide reasonable performance without having to do too much work on the model.
Modeling the Pennsy and loving it!
That's still how they are. The only difference I think with the newer ones (and have for several years) is that the shell is plastic, unlike the 50's version that was metal. ANd at some point, early 90's I think, the open frame motor got replaced with a can motor.
There's not a whole lot that can bind, since there's no actual valve motion. The crosshead guides in mine fit very loosely and I'd suspect if there is trouble it would be there, if they shift it could bind the piston rod. Or maybe if they jam and DON'T shift, given the overall high amount of slop in the rods.
gdelmoro The Vendor took the Mantua back no problem. Now I'm looking for a Proto 2000 DCC & Sound. So Walthers, Life Like and Herratage Proto 2000 are all the same? They are only available on eBay from what I can find and I want to make sure I get the correct item.
Not exactly. Life Like Proto 2000 is the full name, if it's not Proto 2000 you don't really want plain Life Like, those are train set 'quality'. The Proto 2000 steam locos used the Heritage name - since most Proto 2000 locos are diesels. Under Walthers, they usually just called them Proto - so Walthers Proto is what you are looking for.
Glad that's gone.
Now, If I could only find a Wlathers Proto 2000
There's a ton listed on ebay, both the 0-6-0 and the 0-8-0.
Just search Proto 2000 0-6-0 (or 0-8-0) (exactly that in the search box)
Thought I wanted Walthers Proto? There's a lot of Lifelike and Heritage. I don't see any Walthers Proto 2000 DCC & Sound - Could be me, let me try again.
I just put in"
proto 2000 0-6-0
and the first three are non-sound, 4th one is sound.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Heritage-Proto-2000-PRR-0-6-0-w-factory-DCC-Sound-NIB-Ho-Scale-/132251500166?hash=item1ecacdbe86:g:ZhwAAOSwi8VZQtf-
Doesn't matter Walthers or Life Like if it's Proto 2000.
Thanks Randy, that's what I needed to know.
rrinker http://www.ebay.com/itm/Heritage-Proto-2000-PRR-0-6-0-w-factory-DCC-Sound-NIB-Ho-Scale-/132251500166?hash=item1ecacdbe86:g:ZhwAAOSwi8VZQtf-
Is that one with the QSI decoder or the Tsunami? I'd rather have the QSI version, or a DC version and install my own sound.
tstage rrinker http://www.ebay.com/itm/Heritage-Proto-2000-PRR-0-6-0-w-factory-DCC-Sound-NIB-Ho-Scale-/132251500166?hash=item1ecacdbe86:g:ZhwAAOSwi8VZQtf- Is that one with the QSI decoder or the Tsunami? I'd rather have the QSI version, or a DC version and install my own sound. Tom
Guess I'll call the seller and ask first.
He says "Factory so whatever Life Like uses".
How can I tell?
He responded "High quantum QSI Sound"!
If it's in a Life Like box, no Walthers anywhere, it will ONLY be QSI. Life Like never used anything else in their sound versions. Only since Walthers did they switch to Tsunami.
Most of the other ones that showed up, at least on the first page, were DC ones. I didn't go through many more. That one is now sold but there are plenty more listed.
GOT IT !