rrinker Not out of phase, just the EB-1 only breaks one side of the circuit and I'm suspecting that still alows a sneak path back to the booster causing it to trip as well. But swapping the phase of both the input and output terminals should have fixed that. The overall layout is all in phase or else he'd get a short running a loco in or out of the district controlled by the EB-1. --Randy
Not out of phase, just the EB-1 only breaks one side of the circuit and I'm suspecting that still alows a sneak path back to the booster causing it to trip as well. But swapping the phase of both the input and output terminals should have fixed that. The overall layout is all in phase or else he'd get a short running a loco in or out of the district controlled by the EB-1.
--Randy
Rich
Alton Junction
I would test the EB1. Disconnect the layout bus from one of your boosters and connect only the EB1 to it. Power up and short the EB1's outputs. It should trip, booster should stay on. If not, you have problems with the EB1.
If the EB1 checks out, then try swapping it out with one of the PSX units to see if it functions properly in that setting.
Martin Myers
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Mike, have you done as Randy suggested and flip the wires? I believe that Randy and I are both suspecting that something is out of phase.
mlehman richhotrain OK, so just to be clear, each booster powers its own bus. In effect, you have two primary buses, one on each booster. Correct? I prefer to think of it as each booster powering its part of a bus. I used to have two primary buses when I had 2-cab DC. Now I have one of those "retired in place" and the other split, with each half powered by its own booster. Since none of the bus duplicates itself, I consider it one bus that's split between the boosters.
richhotrain OK, so just to be clear, each booster powers its own bus. In effect, you have two primary buses, one on each booster. Correct?
I prefer to think of it as each booster powering its part of a bus. I used to have two primary buses when I had 2-cab DC. Now I have one of those "retired in place" and the other split, with each half powered by its own booster. Since none of the bus duplicates itself, I consider it one bus that's split between the boosters.
rrinkerIf you had the two out of phase, you'd get a short when a loco crossed the gaps.
Yeah, no shorts when crossing from one booster zone to the other. Seems copacetic in that regard. This happens dozens of times a week, so there'd be obvious, repeated issue there that would be noticeable.
I tried to set-up the EB-1 again and made the connections everyway possible and still didn't achieve isolation of the shorts from the bus. And even remembered to take the setup jumper off. Tried a reset to default values, too. No joy in it working beyond shutting everything down when tripped.
This did cause me to dig into things and find a working PSX-1 and PSX-AR, plus I managed to find the fried diode that needed replacment on another PSX-AR to get it going. In each case, these worked like a charm - just hook them up and they're good. So got my bases covered, plus a spare (if I don't hook it up, which I may do.
The LED on the EB1 seems to indicate it's working -- and it does respond promptly, just causes everything else on that booster to go out, too, when it does.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
richhotrainOK, so just to be clear, each booster powers its own bus. In effect, you have two primary buses, one on each booster. Correct?
mlehman rrinker Silly idea - flip the EB-1 around - ie, swap the bus input and the track output, side to side. So if you have a red and black wire feeding it, swap the red and black, and do the same on the output side so your track polarity matches across the gaps. The EB-1 only breaks one side of the circuit instead of both, and it's possible that the side you are breaking is the one referenced to the case ground on the boosters so it's not really opening the circuit completely. Since it's a completely different district not wired downstream of a PSX, there won't be any timing issues. --Randy Randy, Once I got the PSX-1 working, I found a mismatch across the gaps for the Cascade versus the main part of the layout and had to correct it. I saw that issue in the instructions and thought I had it aligned right. But I'm a bit dyslexic, so it's possible I did have things swapped around. A good point to keep in mind if you think it's been checked and right, as it might not be.
rrinker Silly idea - flip the EB-1 around - ie, swap the bus input and the track output, side to side. So if you have a red and black wire feeding it, swap the red and black, and do the same on the output side so your track polarity matches across the gaps. The EB-1 only breaks one side of the circuit instead of both, and it's possible that the side you are breaking is the one referenced to the case ground on the boosters so it's not really opening the circuit completely. Since it's a completely different district not wired downstream of a PSX, there won't be any timing issues. --Randy
Silly idea - flip the EB-1 around - ie, swap the bus input and the track output, side to side. So if you have a red and black wire feeding it, swap the red and black, and do the same on the output side so your track polarity matches across the gaps. The EB-1 only breaks one side of the circuit instead of both, and it's possible that the side you are breaking is the one referenced to the case ground on the boosters so it's not really opening the circuit completely.
Since it's a completely different district not wired downstream of a PSX, there won't be any timing issues.
Randy,
Once I got the PSX-1 working, I found a mismatch across the gaps for the Cascade versus the main part of the layout and had to correct it. I saw that issue in the instructions and thought I had it aligned right. But I'm a bit dyslexic, so it's possible I did have things swapped around. A good point to keep in mind if you think it's been checked and right, as it might not be.
If you had the two out of phase, you'd get a short when a loco crossed the gaps. What I'm saying it to swap which wires are the A amd B on teh EB-1 - on both the input and output of it. End result, the A side still goes to the same rail, and the B side still goes to the same rail, but they are flipped on the EB-1. FOr example, if you look in the instruction sheet at the wiring diagram, I am saying to take the bus wire you have on the top left and put it on the bottom left, and the current bottom left on the top left. Then on the right side, the rail wired to the top right, connect to the bottom right, and the one on the bottom right, connect to the top right.
Make sure you don't have the setup jumper connected. Either no jumpers on the current setup for 2.5 amps or just one on the A position for 3.5 amps.
richhotrain On my layout, the original booster (PB105) is grounded to the second booster (DB5), and the two boosters are wired in phase to one another. But each booster has its own primary bus.
On my layout, the original booster (PB105) is grounded to the second booster (DB5), and the two boosters are wired in phase to one another. But each booster has its own primary bus.
mlehman richhotrain Are you saying that both of your boosters share one common bus? Rich, No. They each support one half of the bus. The boosters are linked via the command station, as well as grounded together per NCE instructions.
richhotrain Are you saying that both of your boosters share one common bus?
Rich,
No. They each support one half of the bus. The boosters are linked via the command station, as well as grounded together per NCE instructions.
richhotrainAre you saying that both of your boosters share one common bus?
The bus was first set up as a centrally-located T, actually 2 Ts, as I used 2 Controlmaster 20 units to provide dual cab control under DC. Each served one bus, the whole way. When I went to DCC, I took the B bus out of service and split the A bus in half in the middle where the command station/boosters were located, with each taking one-half of the original A bus. I leave the former DC cab selector switches in the A position, except when needed for troubleshooting purposes.
Mike, I went back and re-read your initial post as well as your reply to Big Daddy.
I am a bit confused on how exactly you have set up your wiring protocol.
You mentioned that each booster feeds 1/2 of your bus. "The command station controls both boosters. One feeds half the bus, the other feeds the other half of the bus". I am trying to visualize that wiring protocol.
On my layout, the original booster (PB105) is grounded to the second booster (DB5), and the two boosters are wired in phase to one another. But each booster has its own primary bus. Each bus connects to the first PSX and then daisy chains to the remaining PSX (or PSX-AR) units on the input side. On the output side of each PSX (or PSX-AR) unit, a separate sub bus controls all of the track sections for a separate power district. The two primary buses never come into contact with one another.
Are you saying that both of your boosters share one common bus?
Good morning, Mike.
Interesting thread.
As I read through your initial post, my suggestion was going to be replacing the EB1 with another PSX circuit breaker. It is probably a difference in timing rather than a defective EB1.
I have a very similar setup to yours. I have a wireless 5 amp PH-Pro and a second NCE 5 amp booster that divides my layout in two.
I have a total of 7 PSX units, three PSX and four PSX-AR. At one time, I tried to run AR1 units along with PSX circuit breakers and gave up.
Now, the problem with the AR1s was the mechanical relay versus the PSX solid state. That is not your problem with the EB1 but I still suspect a timing difference between the two different solid state units.
Maybe timing is the wrong word. What i suspect is the sensing of different voltage settings. For some reason, your second booster is reacting faster than the EB1.
Where is Randy?
After some further digging in the storeroom, I came up with a PSX-1. Installing it in the original location that solved the problem of isolating the short from the rest of the bus/booster.
It's worth noting that many of what I called PSX-AR above were likely PSX-1. They look very much the same in a quick survey of what's under the layout.
What's still a mystery is why the EB1 couldn't insulate the short versus the booster as the PSX is able to do.
BigDaddy1/2 your layout is powered by the Command Station and 1/2 is powered by a booster.
The command station controls both boosters. One feeds half the bus, the other feeds the other half of the bus. Pretty conventional DCC stuff AFAIK.
BigDaddy Does that mean the entire layout is DCC or 1/2 is DC and 1/2 is DCC?
Yeah, that wasn;t clear, but not feeling so good today, so wrote the post over several hours. Everything is DCC, no DC involved. Again, standard DCC fare. What I think I meant there was I just was noting that I had it connected to one half of the bus/booster. Later, in troubleshooting, I moved it to the other half bus/booster. Didn't help things.
BigDaddy Does that mean the PSX is connected in parallel to the EB1 or does the EB1 supply power to the PSX
They're in parallel to each other. When I trip the PSX-AR, they shut down just the section of track they control. With the EB1, tripping it does the job of shutting down, but this doesn't prevent the booster from also tripping and shutting down. That doesn't seem right to me, as I was expecting the EB1 to basically act like the PSX does, shutting down just the section that it controls while allowing the booster to keep supplying power to the rest of the bus. But maybe I'm expecting too much of the EB1? Or there's a problem with it that allows it to trip but which also forces the booster to trip?
BigDaddyThere has been a lot of confusing discussion in the past of upstream and downstream with regard to placement of circuit breakers and reversers.
Yeah, exactly. I'm not sure if my system architecture is right or I have an equipment settings problem or I have an equipment failure?
I'm not the guy that can solve your problem but I would like to follow along. Like many other trackwork questions, what is clear to the OP isn't quite clear to rest of us. So let me see if I understand what you have posted.
1/2 your layout is powered by the Command Station and 1/2 is powered by a booster.
mlehman I connected it to the one half of the bus that is devoted to DCC power now.
The line to the new EB1 takes off where the first drop from the bus also connects to a PSX-AR.
There has been a lot of confusing discussion in the past of upstream and downstream with regard to placement of circuit breakers and reversers. Electrons are trucking along at the speed of light. What goes on in Vegas should stay in Vegas.
My take on these issues are one component reacts faster than the other and if instead of being connected in parallel they are connected sequentially, they interact with each other.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
My layout is powered by a NCE Power Pro 5 amp command station with another 5 amp booster. These each feed 1/2 of a bus made of 12 gauge THNN wire from a central location. I've run a number (6) PSX-AR to manage auto-reversing and provide some short protection beyond what's onboard the command station and booster with few issues for the last decade.
After adding on the Cascade Extension in a separate room, the additional opportunity for trains to find trouble and the isolation of operators when over there led me to start thinking of some independent power management.
Being on a budget, I picked up a NCE EB1 circuit breaker and ran wire back to the other room where the boosters are. I connected it to the one half of the bus that is devoted to DCC power now. The two boosters are grounded to each other.
The line to the new EB1 takes off where the first drop from the bus also connects to a PSX-AR. This point is less than 3' by wire from the boosters. It's all 16 gauge. It's is about 20 feet over to the room where the Cascade Extension runs. I initially placed the EB1 over there so it's LED could be checked by operators there.
I expected the EB1 to shut down the Cascade Extension in the event of a short, leaving the other circuits on that booster free to operate. Instead, the booster shuts down and blinks its insolence at me.
After doing some initial review, I found I should revise the trip current, so both the old PSX-AR and the EB1 are at 3.81 amps.
Still the insolent LED blinks on the booster when I do the quarter test.
I've confirmed there are no sneak paths to the Cascade Extension by disconnecting the known feed through the EB1 and getting nothing still powered.
I would guess that the EB1 should operate much like a switch. Everything past the point on it where it connects to the grid would be off, but I would think that the grid itself should be unaffected -- that's the point of having it protect parts of the system, right?
Is my EB1 bad or what?
Do I need to delve more into the various other settings that can be done via jumpers and configuring the access points?
Could there be a wiring issue that laid fallow until the EB1 was connected (seems unlikely).?
Wire for the supply to the EB1 too long/too thin?
Could the EB1 and the PSX not play well together and be interferring with each other?