Old post, but just came across it and thought it would be interesting to note that I am experiencing a similar problem. Six PSX breakers on the layout and 1 EB1. The EB1 shuts down the system when shorted; the PSX breakers do not.
I've ordered an additional PSX breaker and plan on replacing the EB1 when the PSX arrives.
Randy,
Yep, my conclusion, too, although I was thinking there moust be something wrong with it once we figured there was a problem at a recent op session. It's been in and working to shut things down for several months, but it's just been then that the offending loco and the people involved were in different rooms that made it apparent.
The EB1 looks like it's using a couple of power transistors, with the center leg cut off, similar to how the PSX-1 does. But the PSXs have been more idiot proof around here and that's a good thing.
I don't think there was anything I did that could account for the issue it's having. Seems pretty bulletproof and I don't remember any sparks flying, but something's dead inside.
The fact that my rogue PSX manages both lines may be why the incident with the bridge rectifier scrambled its brains. I'd forgotten the previous circuit was still energized with it iwhen I went to replace the (bridge-rectifier enhanced) return loop reversing method with the PSX-AR. Fed the input with that and it wasn't right. Can't remember the exact issues, but I replaced it with a spare board and moved on. It's just that I did manage to get all the LEDs working and hoped lights on meant someone was home. Turns out it was just crazy Cousin Mel at home
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
rrinker I still prefer the PSX way of opening BOTH sides
I still prefer the PSX way of opening BOTH sides
Rich
Alton Junction
Sounds like the EB1 detects the short but is not opening the circuit - something's not right with it. Bad power transistor or MOSFET or whatever they use as a switch, or maybe the line from the controller to the transistor is open. The controller is clearly seeing the short since it turns the LED off. I still prefer the PSX way of opening BOTH sides - the servo drivers I am making for turnout control will have TWO relays for frog power - first it turns OFF the frog power, then moves the points, changes the polarity, and then reapplies frog polarity - but it still should work.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
richhotrainAs for the EB1, it isn't acting like it should. Call NCE and discuss the performance issues to see what they have to say. It could be faulty or maybe it simply requires a reset to factory default.
I tried the factory reset multiple times without solving the issue. NCE does stand behind their stuff, just was hoping it was something I could fix today. I am pretty happy with the PSX line at this point, so may just go that way when the budget allows.
richhotrainI wonder if DCC Specialities could repair the "rogue" PSX or, at least, allow a trade-in discount on a new one?
Yeah, I thought about that when I first tried dealing with it maybe 10 years ago. Might still be worth an inquiry if a repair is cheaper than new.
OK, Mike, that helps.
Clearly, that rogue PSX is damaged. I would encourage you to call DCC Specialties about a repair or a trade-in on a good one.
As for the EB1, it isn't acting like it should. Call NCE and discuss the performance issues to see what they have to say. It could be faulty or maybe it simply requires a reset to factory default. NCE may be able to advise you on how to get it working properly.
rrinkerAnother test - hook the input of the EB1 to a booster and short the output - does it work? Could just be a bad EB1. ANd Rich's idea, try one of the known working PSX's in this district.
Already tried direct connection of the EB1 to the booster, with the results as noted above.
I pulled the known good PSX-1 I installed on the Cascade and moved it to the area where I'm trying to get the PSR-AR to work and hooked it up. Sahzzam! It worked great, just hookup and go. Drop a quarter and it shuts down just that district.
So doubt the wiring is the issue.There may be some adjustment possible on the EB1 that I haven't tried yet and it seems to act just like it should, except for the problem that it passes the short through to the CS/booster. It does protect the power district it's installed in, but effectively adds no flexibility or protection beyond what's on the CS/booster already.
Hooked the haunted PSX-AR back up. Instead of uncontrolled DCC power getting through, this time was another variation, a sort of 2/3 voltage version that allows control, but only at a lower speed. It does shutdown with the quarter test properly, but it won't bring the power back afterwards - I have to manually kill power to the board to make it reset. I did do a full reset to factory on the flaky PSX-AR values that may have made some difference here.
Otherwise, after testing on the same circuit, a known good PSX unit works.
An iffy PSX unit has issues.
A EB1 just doesn't work, as it doesn't isolate the command station/booster from the short it sees.
Another test - hook the input of the EB1 to a booster and short the output - does it work? Could just be a bad EB1. ANd Rich's idea, try one of the known working PSX's in this district. If it works, then we're back to maybe a bad EB1, if the PSX also doesn;t work right, there's a wiring problem with the track bus and feeders in that section.
Mike, when you say that all the PSX work fine except the rogue PSX, does that answer my previous question which was, What would happen if you placed only one known good PSX on the bus?
mlehman I did try several different amp settings, all lower than on the (5 amp) CS/boosters, hoping that might help. I've left the EB1 at its fastest breaker setting of 16ms. Still no joy.
I did try several different amp settings, all lower than on the (5 amp) CS/boosters, hoping that might help. I've left the EB1 at its fastest breaker setting of 16ms. Still no joy.
mlehman The PSX all work fine, except for that last rogue one, no matter where installed. It was involved in an altercation with a bridge rectifier at one point and it's acted funny ever since. Thought I'd found a bad diode and fixed it, but maybe one of the power transistors or a IC is the problem???
The PSX all work fine, except for that last rogue one, no matter where installed. It was involved in an altercation with a bridge rectifier at one point and it's acted funny ever since. Thought I'd found a bad diode and fixed it, but maybe one of the power transistors or a IC is the problem???
Might be worth a call. 1-800-671-0641
rrinker Sounds like you may have a crossed feeder to a different circuit breaker district or else a bad gap somewhere at one end or the other of the section you are trying to use the EB1 on. Or if those breakers are all hooked up downstream of the old toggles which you have all set on the A position - might there be one feeder to the EB1 district that comes from a different block toggle? --Randy
Sounds like you may have a crossed feeder to a different circuit breaker district or else a bad gap somewhere at one end or the other of the section you are trying to use the EB1 on.
Or if those breakers are all hooked up downstream of the old toggles which you have all set on the A position - might there be one feeder to the EB1 district that comes from a different block toggle?
In testing, I hooked the EB1 up directly to the booster track output so there was no issue with the wiring back to it.
I shorted it by attaching a wire to one output and touching to the other. The LED on the EB1 went out, as it should when shorted, and the booster started blinking its distress call, which the EB1 shouldn't if one assumes it is supposed to act similarly to the PSX series breakers.
The breakers I've been putting in are wired to bypass the bus that's in use and hook up right next to the CS/booster to feed the circuits going on that particular breaker.
The toggle switches are all downstream from the breaker, so I wouldn't think a miswired one is issue as no problems with them before the alteration. At least I'm pretty sure they're not all that way, given I've tried the EB1 on probably half a dozen different locations with exactly the same results.
Hey, it was late and my brain was half asleep, just needed to take my body to bed...
More in the next answer...
richhotrain With only the EB1 on the bus, the booster, along with the EB1 shut down on the short. With only the PSX on the bus, the booster shut down but the PSX did not shut down on the short. Or, at other times, the PSX did not shut down and neither did the booster??? What are you doing to create the short? The quarter test? What would happen if you placed only one known good PSX on the bus? Rich
With only the EB1 on the bus, the booster, along with the EB1 shut down on the short. With only the PSX on the bus, the booster shut down but the PSX did not shut down on the short. Or, at other times, the PSX did not shut down and neither did the booster???
What are you doing to create the short? The quarter test?
What would happen if you placed only one known good PSX on the bus?
mlehman Rich, That is nice and tidy. Nothing like that here... I tested the CB1 linked by itself to my booster. Whenever the CB1 shorted, so did the booster. Not sure what else I could do after trying it wired in multipl ways as best I could. Thought I had my last PSX going, as I could get both LEDs working on it and power to the track. First short, though, and it would jjust lay down and blink. Or it would stay powered, but any DCC commands were ignored -- the loco would continue on, zombie style. So I'm still a couple of bottles shy of a six-pack on this project unless someone else know a trick to revive the PSX or can suggest a new tack on what to do to get the CB1 working right.
Rich,
That is nice and tidy. Nothing like that here...
I tested the CB1 linked by itself to my booster. Whenever the CB1 shorted, so did the booster. Not sure what else I could do after trying it wired in multipl ways as best I could.
Thought I had my last PSX going, as I could get both LEDs working on it and power to the track. First short, though, and it would jjust lay down and blink. Or it would stay powered, but any DCC commands were ignored -- the loco would continue on, zombie style.
So I'm still a couple of bottles shy of a six-pack on this project unless someone else know a trick to revive the PSX or can suggest a new tack on what to do to get the CB1 working right.
OK, let's get serious. With only the EB1 on the bus, the booster, along with the EB1 shut down on the short. With only the PSX on the bus, the booster shut down but the PSX did not shut down on the short. Or, at other times, the PSX did not shut down and neither did the booster???
mlehman Just guessing, I could use a couple of dozen more PSX-1s, if I was to install one at each drop from the bus. Realistically, I have zero budget right now, which is why I got kinda excited when I found the box with the leftover PSXs. That let me add protection to 3 more power districts. If I get the EB1 to work, that'll be a 4th, so should have about a dozen at that point operating.
Just guessing, I could use a couple of dozen more PSX-1s, if I was to install one at each drop from the bus. Realistically, I have zero budget right now, which is why I got kinda excited when I found the box with the leftover PSXs. That let me add protection to 3 more power districts. If I get the EB1 to work, that'll be a 4th, so should have about a dozen at that point operating.
On my layout, I have 3 PSX circuit breakers and 4 PSX-AR auto-reversers/circuit breakers. All of these units are set at factory default of 3.81 amps so that they break ahead of the booster. I have been careful not to wire any PSX-AR units downstream of any PSX units. H
Here is my wiring schematic.
Tapping the bus involves soldering #12 wire overhead. Scary stuff simply based on the (hot!) run-off alone. At smaller stations, there was basically one tap each, A and B, with only the A now in use.
For Durango, there are maybe 10 taps, because of the density of yard trackage and the need to discriminate the wiring down to the individual track level for DC control purposes.
I have about 8 or 9 power districts now. About half are actually reverse loops. The others support high density switching areas prone to shorts simply because of their complexity and the associated operator error rate.
The plan is to do what I can for high density/short prone areas and start to move on to the various branches. The Cascade was an obvious first take, so that took one of my rehabbed PSXs. It's junction at Tefft with the Silverton Branch was covered by the second. I'll be hooking up the third to cover the Silverton RR and Silverton Northern RR branches next. There's usually just one train up there on both at a time, so no need for a breaker on both, one is sufficient.
If I get the EB1 figured out, I'll use it at Rockwood on the Silverton Branch. That leaves the Durango area as the main area that will remain dependent mostly on the breaker in the booster. That's how things will stay for the immediate future due to budget limitations.
mlehman I have one spare PSX-AR right now and would have two circuit breakers if I can figure out the EB1. Would have spots to use both, but that would leave some districts still on only the booster for short protection, although these are mostly low incidence-of-shorts situations like the mainline, etc. Major switching locations where shorts are most likely would be covered if I can get one or two more protected.
I have one spare PSX-AR right now and would have two circuit breakers if I can figure out the EB1. Would have spots to use both, but that would leave some districts still on only the booster for short protection, although these are mostly low incidence-of-shorts situations like the mainline, etc. Major switching locations where shorts are most likely would be covered if I can get one or two more protected.
It would be good if I could get the EB1 to work. The reason I got it in the first place was to resolve one of the most irritating issues for my operators, having the Cascade mysteriously shut down because of something going on in the main layout room they couldn't see. Got that covered now that I discovered my stash of surplus and almost working PSXs.
mlehman richhotrain Ahh, OK Mike, I guess it is a matter of semantics. I would consider that as two separate primary buses, one running from each booster, just like mine. I thought it would look familiar. While you might consider the parts of your bus "separate" physically, which they are in order to achieve isolation, electrically they are all managed as one bus by the command station.
richhotrain Ahh, OK Mike, I guess it is a matter of semantics. I would consider that as two separate primary buses, one running from each booster, just like mine.
I thought it would look familiar.
While you might consider the parts of your bus "separate" physically, which they are in order to achieve isolation, electrically they are all managed as one bus by the command station.
Meanwhile, we still need to solve your problem.
richhotrainAhh, OK Mike, I guess it is a matter of semantics. I would consider that as two separate primary buses, one running from each booster, just like mine.
mlehman richhotrain rrinker The overall layout is all in phase or else he'd get a short running a loco in or out of the district controlled by the EB-1. --Randy When I first installed a second booster, it was wired out of phase and a "pause" occurred as the loco crossed the gaps. Obviously a short, but a momentary short as locos then continued on. Rich Rich, Here's a crude diagram, with the existing bus in black and the previous, retired bus in dotted red. I omtted the bus control link, along with the wired and wireless control links. The diagram is for the output side of things only. As Randy and you've both noted, there would be sparks flying over the gap between the two halves if something was amiss/out of phase there. Once again, I emphasize, only ONE bus. It delivers the same power and commands no matter where you are on it. If there were two buses, that would not be the case. For instance, sometimes people who use NCE want the signaling aspects of Digitrax and they use a second bus dedicated to signaling alone. I've got that 2nd bus already in place, but don't anticipate using it for that.
richhotrain rrinker The overall layout is all in phase or else he'd get a short running a loco in or out of the district controlled by the EB-1. --Randy When I first installed a second booster, it was wired out of phase and a "pause" occurred as the loco crossed the gaps. Obviously a short, but a momentary short as locos then continued on. Rich
rrinker The overall layout is all in phase or else he'd get a short running a loco in or out of the district controlled by the EB-1. --Randy
The overall layout is all in phase or else he'd get a short running a loco in or out of the district controlled by the EB-1.
When I first installed a second booster, it was wired out of phase and a "pause" occurred as the loco crossed the gaps. Obviously a short, but a momentary short as locos then continued on.
Here's a crude diagram, with the existing bus in black and the previous, retired bus in dotted red. I omtted the bus control link, along with the wired and wireless control links. The diagram is for the output side of things only.
As Randy and you've both noted, there would be sparks flying over the gap between the two halves if something was amiss/out of phase there.
Once again, I emphasize, only ONE bus. It delivers the same power and commands no matter where you are on it. If there were two buses, that would not be the case.
For instance, sometimes people who use NCE want the signaling aspects of Digitrax and they use a second bus dedicated to signaling alone. I've got that 2nd bus already in place, but don't anticipate using it for that.
mfm37 I would test the EB1. Disconnect the layout bus from one of your boosters and connect only the EB1 to it. Power up and short the EB1's outputs. It should trip, booster should stay on. If not, you have problems with the EB1. If the EB1 checks out, then try swapping it out with one of the PSX units to see if it functions properly in that setting. Martin Myers
I would test the EB1. Disconnect the layout bus from one of your boosters and connect only the EB1 to it. Power up and short the EB1's outputs. It should trip, booster should stay on. If not, you have problems with the EB1.
If the EB1 checks out, then try swapping it out with one of the PSX units to see if it functions properly in that setting.
Martin Myers
Martin,
Good idea on the test scenario. May give that a try and report back if I get a chance.
I've already subbed the EB1 in instead of a PSX and tried hooking it up in all the possible variations, with the negative results as noted.