Understanding the NCE EB1 Circuit Breaker (in Combo with PSX-AR)

[richhotrain]

mlehman

Rich,

That is nice and tidy. Nothing like that here...

I tested the CB1 linked by itself to my booster. Whenever the CB1 shorted, so did the booster. Not sure what else I could do after trying it wired in multipl ways as best I could.

Thought I had my last PSX going, as I could get both LEDs working on it and power to the track. First short, though, and it would jjust lay down and blink. Or it would stay powered, but any DCC commands were ignored -- the loco would continue on, zombie style.

So I'm still a couple of bottles shy of a six-pack on this project unless someone else know a trick to revive the PSX or can suggest a new tack on what to do to get the CB1 working right.

 

Well, even you are not working now, calling an EB1 a CB1.  

OK, let's get serious. With only the EB1 on the bus, the booster, along with the EB1 shut down on the short.  With only the PSX on the bus, the booster shut down but the PSX did not shut down on the short.  Or, at other times, the PSX did not shut down and neither did the booster???

What are you doing to create the short?  The quarter test?

What would happen if you placed only one known good PSX on the bus?

Rich

[rrinker]

 Sounds like you may have a crossed feeder to a different circuit breaker district or else a bad gap somewhere at one end or the other of the section you are trying to use the EB1 on.

 Or if those breakers are all hooked up downstream of the old toggles which you have all set on the A position - might there be one feeder to the EB1 district that comes from a different block toggle?

 

                                --Randy

 

[richhotrain]

richhotrain

 

With only the EB1 on the bus, the booster, along with the EB1 shut down on the short.  With only the PSX on the bus, the booster shut down but the PSX did not shut down on the short.  Or, at other times, the PSX did not shut down and neither did the booster??? 

What are you doing to create the short?  The quarter test? 

What would happen if you placed only one known good PSX on the bus? 

Rich 

 

rrinker

 

 Sounds like you may have a crossed feeder to a different circuit breaker district or else a bad gap somewhere at one end or the other of the section you are trying to use the EB1 on. 

Or if those breakers are all hooked up downstream of the old toggles which you have all set on the A position - might there be one feeder to the EB1 district that comes from a different block toggle? 

                                --Randy 

Inquiring minds want to know.

Rich

[mlehman]

Hey, it was late and my brain was half asleep, just needed to take my body to bed...

The PSX all work fine, except for that last rogue one, no matter where installed. It was involved in an altercation with a bridge rectifier at one point and it's acted funny ever since. Thought I'd found a bad diode and fixed it, but maybe one of the power transistors or a IC is the problem???

More in the next answer...

[mlehman]

rrinker

 Sounds like you may have a crossed feeder to a different circuit breaker district or else a bad gap somewhere at one end or the other of the section you are trying to use the EB1 on.

 Or if those breakers are all hooked up downstream of the old toggles which you have all set on the A position - might there be one feeder to the EB1 district that comes from a different block toggle?

 

                                --Randy

 

 

In testing, I hooked the EB1 up directly to the booster track output so there was no issue with the wiring back to it.

I shorted it by attaching a wire to one output and touching to the other. The LED on the EB1 went out, as it should when shorted, and the booster started blinking its distress call, which the EB1 shouldn't if one assumes it is supposed to act similarly to the PSX series breakers.

The breakers I've been putting in are wired to bypass the bus that's in use and hook up right next to the CS/booster to feed the circuits going on that particular breaker.

The toggle switches are all downstream from the breaker, so I wouldn't think a miswired one is issue as no problems with them before the alteration. At least I'm pretty sure they're not all that way, given I've tried the EB1 on probably half a dozen different locations with exactly the same results.

I did try several different amp settings, all lower than on the (5 amp) CS/boosters, hoping that might help. I've left the EB1 at its fastest breaker setting of 16ms. Still no joy.

[richhotrain]

mlehman

The PSX all work fine, except for that last rogue one, no matter where installed. It was involved in an altercation with a bridge rectifier at one point and it's acted funny ever since. Thought I'd found a bad diode and fixed it, but maybe one of the power transistors or a IC is the problem???

I wonder if DCC Specialities could repair the "rogue" PSX or, at least, allow a trade-in discount on a new one?

Might be worth a call. 1-800-671-0641

Rich

[richhotrain]

mlehman

I did try several different amp settings, all lower than on the (5 amp) CS/boosters, hoping that might help. I've left the EB1 at its fastest breaker setting of 16ms. Still no joy.

 

The factory setting on the EB1 trip current is 2.5 amps. On a dead short, 2.5 amps will be sufficient to trip the EB1, so it ought to be left there.

Rich

[richhotrain]

Mike, when you say that all the PSX work fine except the rogue PSX, does that answer my previous question which was, What would happen if you placed only one known good PSX on the bus?

Rich

[rrinker]

 Another test - hook the input of the EB1 to a booster and short the output - does it work? Could just be a bad EB1. ANd Rich's idea, try one of the known working PSX's in this district. If it works, then we're back to  maybe a bad EB1, if the PSX also doesn;t work right, there's a wiring problem with the track bus and feeders in that section.

                            --Randy

 

[mlehman]

rrinker

Another test - hook the input of the EB1 to a booster and short the output - does it work? Could just be a bad EB1. ANd Rich's idea, try one of the known working PSX's in this district.

Randy,

Already tried direct connection of the EB1 to the booster, with the results as noted above.

I pulled the known good PSX-1 I installed on the Cascade and moved it to the area where I'm trying to get the PSR-AR to work and hooked it up. Sahzzam! It worked great, just hookup and go. Drop a quarter and it shuts down just that district.

So doubt the wiring is the issue.There may be some adjustment possible on the EB1 that I haven't tried yet and it seems to act just like it should, except for the problem that it passes the short through to the CS/booster. It does protect the power district it's installed in, but effectively adds no flexibility or protection beyond what's on the CS/booster already.

Hooked the haunted PSX-AR back up. Instead of uncontrolled DCC power getting through, this time was another variation, a sort of 2/3 voltage version that allows control, but only at a lower speed. It does shutdown with the quarter test properly, but it won't bring the power back afterwards - I have to manually kill power to the board to make it reset. I did do a full reset to factory on the flaky PSX-AR values that may have made some difference here.

Otherwise, after testing on the same circuit, a known good PSX unit works.

An iffy PSX unit has issues.

A EB1 just doesn't work, as it doesn't isolate the command station/booster from the short it sees.

[richhotrain]

OK, Mike, that helps.  

Clearly, that rogue PSX is damaged. I would encourage you to call DCC Specialties about a repair or a trade-in on a good one.

As for the EB1, it isn't acting like it should.  Call NCE and discuss the performance issues to see what they have to say. It could be faulty or maybe it simply requires a reset to factory default. NCE may be able to advise you on how to get it working properly.

Rich

[mlehman]

richhotrain

I wonder if DCC Specialities could repair the "rogue" PSX or, at least, allow a trade-in discount on a new one?

Yeah, I thought about that when I first tried dealing with it maybe 10 years ago. Might still be worth an inquiry if a repair is cheaper than new.

[mlehman]

richhotrain

As for the EB1, it isn't acting like it should. Call NCE and discuss the performance issues to see what they have to say. It could be faulty or maybe it simply requires a reset to factory default.

I tried the factory reset multiple times without solving the issue. NCE does stand behind their stuff, just was hoping it was something I could fix today. I am pretty happy with the PSX line at this point, so may just go that way when the budget allows.

[rrinker]

 Sounds like the EB1 detects the short but is not opening the circuit - something's not right with it. Bad power transistor or MOSFET or whatever they use as a switch, or maybe the line from the controller to the transistor is open. The controller is clearly seeing the short since it turns the LED off. I still prefer the PSX way of opening BOTH sides - the servo drivers I am making for turnout control will have TWO relays for frog power - first it turns OFF the frog power, then moves the points, changes the polarity, and then reapplies frog polarity - but it still should work.

               --Randy

[richhotrain]

rrinker

I still prefer the PSX way of opening BOTH sides 

Same here, I prefer the PSX units as well.

Rich

[mlehman]

Randy,

Yep, my conclusion, too, although I was thinking there moust be something wrong with it once we figured there was a problem at a recent op session. It's been in and working to shut things down for several months, but it's just been then that the offending loco and the people involved were in different rooms that made it apparent.

The EB1 looks like it's using a couple of power transistors, with the center leg cut off, similar to how the PSX-1 does. But the PSXs have been more idiot proof around here and that's a good thing.

I don't think there was anything I did that could account for the issue it's having. Seems pretty bulletproof and I don't remember any sparks flying, but something's dead inside.

The fact that my rogue PSX manages both lines may be why the incident with the bridge rectifier scrambled its brains. I'd forgotten the previous circuit was still energized with it iwhen I went to replace  the (bridge-rectifier enhanced) return loop reversing method with the PSX-AR. Fed the input with that and it wasn't right. Can't remember the exact issues, but I replaced it with a spare board and moved on. It's just that I did manage to get all the LEDs working and hoped lights on meant someone was home. Turns out it was just crazy Cousin Mel at home

[mopacmike]

Old post, but just came across it and thought it would be interesting to note that I am experiencing a similar problem.  Six PSX breakers on the layout and 1 EB1.  The EB1 shuts down the system when shorted; the PSX breakers do not.

I've ordered an additional PSX breaker and plan on replacing the EB1 when the PSX arrives.

[fiskerbiscuit]

Hey folks, I'm posting this to shine a light on how the PSX series function when experiencing booster shut down in the event of a short when using a PSX. I'll let NCE answer regarding their EB-1.

The PSX series of power controllers has two reset modes: manual and automatic. By default, the units are shipped with the reset mode set to automatic. In this mode, the unit will trip when shorted, but try every two seconds to reset. When it resets (turns on), it will trip if the fault is still present or remain on if the fault has cleared. While this is the most convenient mode, it may not work well on your layout depending on your wiring, your boosters, number of power districts, etc.

Assume a solid short on your layout. The PSX trips essentially instantly (< 1ms). After two seconds, the PSX turns its output back on (default automatic reset mode). If the fault is gone, all is good. However, if the fault is still present, then when the PSX turns on, the short is placed across its input terminals and consequently across the terminals of the booster, causing the booster voltage output to drop. Depending on your wiring, how bad the short is, etc. this drop may be only a volt or so (not a problem) or might be almost to zero volts (big problem). Whatever the booster does at this point is seen by all power districts. If the booster voltage drops significantly, then you will see this drop in all connected power districts. While this condition does not last very long, it can cause headlights to flash or other annoying effects. Some boosters, when repeatedly exposed to this situation (multiple reset tries), will eventually trip, shutting down all connected districts. The solution to this situation is to use the manual reset mode.

In the manual reset mode, the PSX will trip (< 1ms), but will not try to reset itself. Once the PSX has tripped, the faulted power district is isolated. Since the PSX does not try to reset, the booster remains operating normally and the remaining power districts see no adverse effects from the short. Once the fault is cleared, the PSX can be reset (see below).

The manual reset mode is enabled by installing a jumper from J7-1 to J7-2. Opening this jumper will reset the PSX. If you use a normally closed push button switch in series with the jumper wire, then you can reset the PSX simply by pushing the button once you have fixed the problem. If you use a push-button lit with an LED, connect the LED + to J5-1 (PSX) or J5-4 (PSX-AR) and the LED – to J5-2 (PSX) or J5-3 (PSX-AR). When the breaker trips, the LED will light indicating a fault. Pushing the button will reset the breaker and turn off the fault light (assuming you fixed the problem). You can also use your throttle to reset the PSX. Just send an Accessory (Switch) ON command to accessory (switch) address 2042 (default). If you have a Digitrax system, install the Digitrax configuration jumper (J7-3 to J7-4 - you should do this in any case), move the program jumper to program, turn on the PSX, wait for the LED to stop flashing, turn off the PSX, and return the program jumper to normal. This will set the default address to 997. SWCH commands at SWCH address 997 will now turn the PSX ON (c) and OFF (t). Of course, you can change this address to anything you want. You can keep all of the PSX units at the same address if you want so that there is a single command used to reset any tripped breaker.