mlehman Rich, Yeah, it's an investment to think about. Tubes are old school, when they used to be the efficient choice. But once you consider the cost to operate, if more than a couple of hours a day, the lifetime cost numbers turn favorable to LEDs. As you note with the fixtures you have now, how they're perceived matters a lot, as you're trying to reproduce nature in a way that please your own tastes. The old tubes lit things unobtrusively, which is exactly what good illumination does, lighting other things without calling attention to itself.
Rich,
Yeah, it's an investment to think about. Tubes are old school, when they used to be the efficient choice. But once you consider the cost to operate, if more than a couple of hours a day, the lifetime cost numbers turn favorable to LEDs.
As you note with the fixtures you have now, how they're perceived matters a lot, as you're trying to reproduce nature in a way that please your own tastes. The old tubes lit things unobtrusively, which is exactly what good illumination does, lighting other things without calling attention to itself.
Rich
Alton Junction
zstripe Rich, I replaced My shop lights in My garage, because I got tired of replacing bulbs and not turning on in cold weather and then when on, not giving off enough light. I had six double shop lights and replaced them with LED shop lights...four of them and have more light than I ever had now. There are all kinds of LED shop lights that will work for what You want...look around...Home Depot, Menards etc. The one's I have: http://www.costco.com/4%E2%80%99-Linkable-LED-Shop-Light-with-Pull-Chain-2-pack.product.100284402.html I just stripped the cord and hardwired to My existing boxe's and left the pull chain set to on so they can be controlled by the wall switch. Take Care! Frank
I replaced My shop lights in My garage, because I got tired of replacing bulbs and not turning on in cold weather and then when on, not giving off enough light. I had six double shop lights and replaced them with LED shop lights...four of them and have more light than I ever had now. There are all kinds of LED shop lights that will work for what You want...look around...Home Depot, Menards etc.
The one's I have:
http://www.costco.com/4%E2%80%99-Linkable-LED-Shop-Light-with-Pull-Chain-2-pack.product.100284402.html
I just stripped the cord and hardwired to My existing boxe's and left the pull chain set to on so they can be controlled by the wall switch.
Take Care!
Frank
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Mike, I really appreciate that detailed explanation of your lighting setup and how I might benefit from the use of LED strip lighting. There is a lot for me to consider.
When I bought those 11 fluorescent fixtures, cost was a major consideration. Each fixture only cost about $10 at Menards. The fluorescent fixtures provide a lot of light, so I like the setup. But, it is disheartening to have the fixtures fail and not be able to repair them.
In thinking about ceiling height, I took note of the fact that the fluorescent fixtures are suspended from the floor joists, so they actually are situated about 6.5 feet above the floor.
This depends in large part on what you want to spend. I apply the 3' rule to what most people want to spend on LED lighting. It's not cheap up front, but the savings in electric and cooling costs more than make up for it. But people tend to buy the lower end of current production quality for price reasons we're all familiar with. Yes, there are LED light strips that can handle the increased distance, but you'll pay for that capability. For most, the economics of pine make more sense. In my case, the main layout room has a suspended ceiling, so my lights strips attach to that framework. Still, if your budget is tight, like mine, you wish things were brighter. Silverton needs at least one more pass through, maybe two, to be as intense as I'd like it to be. So this looks a little murky to me from about 25", a work still in process, but which your camera and Photoshop can fix most of in processing.
Along the Cascade Extension, there's a low finished ceiling where the lighting attaches directly with plastic clips. Near the end around Crater Lake and Snowden, it's like your basement, but lower. You can see the close range intensity in this shot, which also show the sort of light 1x2 framework I'm suggesting (you could go larger, like 1x3, but no need to) I'm suggesting. In this case, you can see front and back, the way I angled things since these strips are very directional is=f aligned, and the tywraps I use to attach. I didn't bother with black paint because things were so closely framed already. Ceiling "height" is about 12 to 15", although the LEDs one the wood frame are only about 10" - you're looking into the letterbox in extreme fashion here. The scne to the back corner on the left is about 48" deep, built like a ship in a bottle, but operates well with a light touch (and I have an old man's grippy tool to use in case of emergency .)
I probably would repaint it balck in a do-over, but it's a hassle to do later if you don't like the all wood look I'm rocking here.
This shot shows how once you get the camera in the right place and set it up, you can get nicely lit shots like this with LEDs.
As I noted earlier, 6" or so higher than 6' doesn't depart too far fom the 3 foot rule and will make a grid to hang things from more practical. Here's the center where it's about 34" above the deck.
These shots are without supplemental track lighting that's left over, but much reduced in number (~80% reduction in fixtures) and now rarely used. The 1kw+ of Chroma 50 equivalent tubes overhead is rarely turned on except if something tiny and important enough to fire those babies up is lost. It's usually all LEDs.
Part of the difference is that these LED things get better as made new, but the older ones will be dimmer. There is some variance if you stay on the cheap and can't buy all at once, which is easily solved by having money to throw at the problem and easily evaded by my recycling older lighting on an as needed basis.
I picked representative pics, but they've all been processed. They look comparable to my eye, but I thought some text would help explain results to be expected. High intensity LEDs are available, but that's way above my pay grade right now. The even light vastly improves the looks of the layout with relative little tricky adjustment. Once you've figured the lay of the land with these, if it looks right do it. Don't stress or kink them and they will be good to you if you buy decent quality.
The LED ropes I have seen are rather dim by themselves. I think they need to be strung together and located closer to the layout to get the same illumination of the layout as the shop lights or track lighting when hung from the ceiling. JMO.
I think we are heading towards a Richhotrain "New Layout Build" thread. I'm all for it.
- Douglas
Thanks, Mike, for those additional thoughts. I am considering LED light strips. With my current layout being 36" high, is the "ceiling" height of 92" too high for installing LED strip lighting? Your earlier calculations suggested a 3 foot rule, but that would mean building a box structure 72" off the floor which would be a problem for me since I am 6' tall.
One more thought this morning. Your layout is pretty much complete in terms of its extent, so that makes planning a little easier. But for those contemplating additions or changing things, as well as for those still constructing, it's also good to know about the relative flexibility of these methods.
Generally, the least flexible are can lights. You don't have a ceiling, but that's usually a factor. It's a lot of work to relocate a can light in the wrong place in a ceiling. With open rafters like yours, it's easier, but still the least flexible of the three types.
Track lighting is more flexible, as you can obviously move the lighting fixtures to different places on the track. Generally, you only have one track through a scene and that does somewhat limit relocation possibilities. And track lights are usually wired into the house wiring, so that requires relocating, too, in some cases.
LED light strips are easily relocatable or adjustable. Yes, you should try to get them right. While flexible, don't overdue the bending, as this can eventually damage them, but gentle handling and the lack of need for wired-in connections means they can be rather easily adjusts to improvements and additions you make to the layout.
The last bit about LED strip lights is also why they work so well for lighting if you don't have experience with it. Do-overs are easy and the need for commitment to a finalized plan is not as great. They're simply more forgiving to use, which can be a great confidence builder in making an installation.
zstripe woodman Obviously you have a lot of time on your hands. If the above is directed to Me..LOL..Yes I do.... Frank
woodman Obviously you have a lot of time on your hands.
Obviously you have a lot of time on your hands.
If the above is directed to Me..LOL..Yes I do....
My kitchen/dining nook has can lights, eight of them, installed by a professional electrician. The lighting is still uneven by layout standards and sucks 480 watts, an absurd amount given the limited area they illuminate.
And while it wouldn't make that much difference in a conditioned basement, it should be noted that can lights are notorious for providing infiltration/exfiltrations routes into the space above them.
mlehman richhotrain But what about track lighting? Or, can lights? Help me clear my mind. Dead Question Confused To do either track or can lights justice, you'll need to either hire an electrician or have the skills of one. Both generate point sources of light, so you have to work at overcoming that. Both also tend to generate heat, unless you go to the trouble of installing LEDs in the fixtures, but then the fixtures are less than ideal for doing that.
richhotrain But what about track lighting? Or, can lights? Help me clear my mind. Dead Question Confused
To do either track or can lights justice, you'll need to either hire an electrician or have the skills of one. Both generate point sources of light, so you have to work at overcoming that. Both also tend to generate heat, unless you go to the trouble of installing LEDs in the fixtures, but then the fixtures are less than ideal for doing that.
If the above is directed to Me..LOL..Yes I do. I retired at 62..that's 14 yrs. ago. I have 4kids, which are grown adults with their own families and house's, 8 Grandkids, which I spoil every chance I get. Got rid of My wife in the mid-ninties, which is also taken care of...so I do what I want, when I want, spend what I want and only have to answer to Myself Thank You! Worked very hard to get where I am at and am enjoying every minute of it...as long as my vehicle (body) holds out!
richhotrainBut what about track lighting? Or, can lights? Help me clear my mind. Dead Question Confused
Well, I appreciate all of the replies, but now I have grown increasingly confused.
The current fluorescent fixtures do a good job of providing lighting, but it is becoming frustrating when I have to replace dead fixtures since they cannot be repaired.
LED light strips hold some appeal for me.
But what about track lighting? Or, can lights?
Help me clear my mind.
My room is 22 X 19 drywalled and painted white and skyblue. I have 9 equally spaced can lights and the light is fine for now but does cast some shadows.
I would recommend painting the joists or a drop cieling. With a white cieling you may only need half as many lights.
Steve
and just for laughs.....
How many forum members does it takes to change a light bulb?
1 to change the light bulb and to post that the light bulb has been changed 14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light bulb could have been changed differently 7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs 1 to move it to the Lighting section 2 to argue then move it to the Electricals section 7 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light bulbs 5 to flame the spell checkers 3 to correct spelling/grammar flames 6 to argue over whether it's "lightbulb" or "light bulb" ... another 6 to condemn those 6 as stupid 2 industry professionals to inform the group that the proper term is "lamp" 15 know-it-alls who claim they were in the industry, and that "light bulb" is perfectly correct 19 to post that this forum is not about light bulbs and to please take this discussion to a lightbulb forum 11 to defend the posting to this forum saying that we all use light bulbs and therefore the posts are relevant to this forum 36 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to buy the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this technique and what brands are faulty 7 to post URL's where one can see examples of different light bulbs 4 to post that the URL's were posted incorrectly and then post the corrected URL's 3 to post about links they found from the URL's that are relevant to this group which makes light bulbs relevant to this group 13 to link all posts to date, quote them in their entirety including all headers and signatures, and add "Me too" 5 to post to the group that they will no longer post because they cannot handle the light bulb controversy 4 to say "didn't we go through this already a short time ago?" 13 to say "do a Google search on light bulbs before posting questions about light bulbs" 1 forum lurker to respond to the original post 6 months from now and start it all over again.
I'd look into using WS2812 RGB LED strips, driven by an Arduino microprocessor module. They require absolutely minimal wiring, can be set to ANY color, and are individually controllable. The LED strips only require 5V power, ground and ONE CONTROL/DATA line for all the LEDs. I have a project that I did with 294 LEDs (6 sided cube with each side a 7x7 matrix) that only has 3 wires connected to the Arduino.
Obviiously, my LED cube project has nothing to do with model railroading, but it's just an example how LEDs can be easily connected.
Do a Google search on Arduino WS2812 to see how easy it is to control....the Arduino modules are cheap enough that you could have multiple separate segments if you wish, or control it all with one module.
Doing it yourself allows you to completely control all aspects of lighting, including the lights ON the layout, not just overhead lighting. A controller that comes packaged with the LED strips (if you buy it that way) is not even close to the flexibility that can be accomplished with an Arduino.
While bright, even lighting is desireable, the shadows created by gaps in lighting can have the same effect as a partly cloudy sky when the shadows of clouds move over the landscape. No big deal, IMO.
richhotrain ....If I were to finish the basement and create a separate layout room, it would be an odd shape because of the L-shape needed for the layout footprint.
This is the odd shape with which I was left after the rest of the family picked out their sections:
Here's a view of the Chippawa Creek aisle, before the ceiling light centre-photo was replaced with an 8'-er:
Wayne
doctorwayne Rich, you've got almost 1,000 square feet of layout room, but are using only 11 fluorescent fixtures? And the room is unfinished? My first suggestion would be to finish the room - not inexpensive, but it will be a much nicer environment in which to work, and light-coloured walls and ceiling will go a long way to make your layout easier to see. Regardless of the type of lights you choose, you need more of them for a room that size.
Rich, you've got almost 1,000 square feet of layout room, but are using only 11 fluorescent fixtures? And the room is unfinished?
My first suggestion would be to finish the room - not inexpensive, but it will be a much nicer environment in which to work, and light-coloured walls and ceiling will go a long way to make your layout easier to see. Regardless of the type of lights you choose, you need more of them for a room that size.
The basement itself is neither square nor perfectly rectangular. But, essentially, the basement measures 60' x 30'. My layout sits in one "corner" of the basement and occupies an L-shaped footprint of 42' x 6' on one leg and 12' x 20' on the other leg, including an aisle. So, the area of the layout is more like 500 square feet.
Yes, the basement is totally unfinished. It has a poured concrete foundation, a concrete floor, and the "ceiling" is open in that it is a series of 2 x 12 floor joists that support the 2-story house. As an unfinished basement, the original lighting was a series of incandescent bulb fixtures throughout the basement. That provided for a dimly lit environment. So, when I built my current layout, I added the fluorescent fixtures at strategic intervals, resulting in 11 fixtures.
As far as finishing the room is concerned, I would have to demolish the current layout to do that. I will admit that, for years, I have thought about building my Dream Layout, so demolition may eventually take place. But, finishing the basement would be an expensive proposition.
To finish the basement just for the purpose of providing a nicer environment for the layout doesn't seem practical to me. Also, the layout is not really in its own "room" since I have merely set aside a "corner" of the basement for this purpose. If I were to finish the basement and create a separate layout room, it would be an odd shape because of the L-shape needed for the layout footprint.
My first suggestion would be to finish the room - not inexpensive, but it will be a much nicer environment in which to work, and light-coloured walls and ceiling will go a long way to make your layout easier to see. Regardless of the type of lights you choose, you need more of them for a room that size. My layout room is about 560 sq.ft. in an odd shape. I use fluorescent fixtures above a drop ceiling: 27 4' double tube ones and two 8' double tube ones. Part of the layout is double decked, so 11 of those 27 4' fixtures are attached to the underside of the second level.
The tubes are cool white, mainly because they produce more lumens than some of the "nicer" colours. Your eyes quickly adapt to the colour and even cheap point-and-shoot cameras can compensate for this type of light.
LEDs sound good to me, and I'll probably use a few bulb-type ones as fill lights, especially in some of the corners. I recently did some reno work for my daughter, and installed a bunch of LED pot lights in their kitchen and dinette area - because of their design, the light from them projects, at counter height, a pool of light about 6' in diameter, so the fixtures were placed at roughly 6' intervals, yielding even lighting with no shadows. They're also dimmable.
Unfortunately, the cost to redo my layout room with them is well beyond my limited means.
I did find that my initial installation of fluorescents over the around-the-walls layout caused shadows on the areas closest to the aisles, so when the second level was added, the new lights for the lower areas were place immediately behind the fascia of the upper level, so that the foreground of the lower level would be well lit. I also re-arranged the layout of the drop ceiling grid so that the fixtures above it could be moved towards the edge of the aisle, eliminating the shadowy foregrounds on the upper level. The two 8' fixtures were installed at that time, too, replacing a couple of 4'-ers.
My plan is to use LED strips, they've now reached a decent price point. I happen to prefer warm white, the cool white has too much of a bluish tint to them to my eye - I did use them (cool white) to light my new electronics bench because they are brighter. I plan on using more than one strip in most areas to achieve enough lighting (all to be tested before installing anything), and I want to also include a strip of RGB LEDs so I can do sunrise/sunset/night effects by dimming the white ones and bringing up reddish-orange colors which then fade out and go to blue. The RGB reel I got to experiment with, the controller that comes with it can;t do all this at once, so I will likely have to make my own that will allow me to have the blue slowly brighten while the reddish color dims.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
If you are inclined to do a little tech work, you can go online to the web sites of major lighting manufacturers (one example is Prescolite) and actually do a preliminary fixture layout for various fixture and lamp types.
You should have a goal for the level of footcandles you want on the layout top: 100 footcandles would be good for when you are doing detail model/layout work; put the fixtures on a dimmer and you can lower that level for general operation.
The layout of the fixtures depends on your model, what you want illuminated thereon and of course, the light level and type of fixture and lamp noted above.
After you do some basic evaluations, you might also be able to get more accurate computerized studies from manufacturers' or distributors' reps without charge. That's what I did.
Dante
The stuff I use comes as a cord with a clear cover over the LEDs I get mine at Menards. There is lots more discussion and pics starting about halfway down this page in my Night Scene thread: http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/213765.aspx?page=3
I like them because the power supply is integrated into the cord and the LED strip itself is well protected and easy hang.
This link has some representative examples: http://www.flexfireleds.com/project-examples-ideas/
Most LED strips come as "open face" arrays, so are somewhat fragile. The power supply is largish like a wall wart. No real drawbacks and lots more options than the stuff I use.
mlehman As you might suspect, I favor LED light strips, which minimizes most of the need for complex planning. You just keep putting them up over the layout until they're bright enough for you.
As you might suspect, I favor LED light strips, which minimizes most of the need for complex planning. You just keep putting them up over the layout until they're bright enough for you.
richhotrainMike, the ceiling height is 92 inches. My current layout is 36 inches high, but I am seriously considering a new layout that will be 42 inches high.
I'd go with suspending the framework to tie LED strip lights to about 3' above the layout. At 36" high, that's only 6'. You always want the lighting to be above your viewing height. Go to 42", then you'll be above most eyes at 78" -- and about the minimum practical height. You can go higher, but may need additional rows to compensate.
Other methods will need some details, maybe including the footprint of the layout. As you might suspect, I favor LED light strips, which minimizes most of the need for complex planning. You just keep putting them up over the layout until they're bright enough for you. If you have three feet of overhead clearance, good. Shorter is not a problem. Taller ceilings might force a suspended framework into the picture, but only as some 1x2 lumber framing painted black.
A big LED advantage has already been mentioned -- the lack of heat. Another is peculiar to the LED light strip format. The rays are a lot like the sun's in that they are parallel rather than being from a point source.
"Color temperature" depends on your taste to a certain degree. I've tended to stick with something around 5,000. The Chroma 50 spec tubes in my now-rarely used flourescent fixtures were recommended by fellow narrowgauger and architect Boone Morrison and LEDs close to that work well visually without being too blue or too yellow.
mlehman Rich, Two more numbers are needed for planning, layout deck height and ceiling height.
Two more numbers are needed for planning, layout deck height and ceiling height.
You might install dimmers to vary "the time of day." Also, look to how the new placement of overhead lighting "over the trackplan" might cast unwanted shadows against backdrops, buildings, etc.
Conemaugh Road & Traction circa 1956