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Returning to model railroads, what's all this DCC stuff?

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Returning to model railroads, what's all this DCC stuff?
Posted by OliverHevvy on Thursday, May 26, 2016 6:17 PM

I was an active HO modeler up until the early 1980s, then life happened.  ;-)  I'm semi-retired now, and getting back into it. Can you recommend an article or book that is a good introduction to DCC? There's lots of how-to articles about adapting, programming, tuning, etc. but I have not much on the basics.

I do recall in the early 80s there was a sort of pulse-width control system, 16 channels if I remember right, that was starting to take off. But it sounds like today's DCC is well past that.

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Posted by Eric White on Friday, May 27, 2016 9:01 AM

Hi Oliver!

Welcome to the forums, and welcome back to model railroading.

Our DCC columnist, Larry Puckett, recently published a book on model railroad wiring. In it, he also explains Digital Command Control (DCC).

Here's a link to the page where you can buy the book:

https://kalmbachhobbystore.com/product/book/12491

At the bottom of the page, you should also see some DCC-specific books.

Happy modeling!

 

Eric

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Posted by peahrens on Friday, May 27, 2016 9:52 AM

Welcome back to the fun.  Some folks aren't keen on books but I like to start there and have several Kalmbach books on track, etc.  I came back from earlier MR stints just in 2011 or so and I acquired the DCC Guide booklet you will see shown at the bottom of the page listed above.  It's DCC focused and I thought it was quite good.  I'm pretty sure I have the 1st edition and it was fine to cover all the basics.  You might find it in a hobby shop if you have one nearby and avoid the shipping.

When you want to get deeper, of course you can peruse old threads here.  The Search the Community box on the right doesn't work so great. Usually better to search with Google (not Edge) as in: "site: cs.trains (your topic).  Here's a search example on "DCC turnout wiring".

https://www.google.com/search?espv=2&q=site%3A+cs.trains+DCC+turnout+wiring&oq=site%3A+cs.trains+DCC+turnout+wiring&gs_l=serp.3...22901.27012.0.29201.20.20.0.0.0.0.186.2467.0j19.19.0....0...1c.1.64.serp..1.0.0.G8C-E0PQJF4

For more depth, there are great websites, including Allen Gartner's.  Look under DCC Topics and there's a wealth of info.

http://www.wiringfordcc.com/

If you run into a specific question or need elaboration or practical experiences, feel free to ask in the forum.

Enjoy the trip.

 

 

 

 

Paul

Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent

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Posted by BigDaddy on Friday, May 27, 2016 9:53 AM

I have DCC Guide by Dan Fiehmann and DCC Vol 2 Projects and Applications by Polsgrove and Popp. 

It's a steep learning curve, but it's not brain surgery either.  I think it's a bit like genetics.  There isn't one gene for ugly and there may be more than one CV for the parameter you want to program.

Henry

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Posted by richg1998 on Friday, May 27, 2016 10:08 AM

There are hundreds of DCC links on the Internet. Here is one. Do a lot of research.

There are digital control systems that are wireless battery operated for HO scale also. Not DCC. DCC is the NMRA design. DCS is similar.

Some use smartphones and iPads.

http://mrdccu.com/

Rich

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Posted by BRAKIE on Friday, May 27, 2016 10:42 AM

This may help as well. Part 1 and 2.  You tube has lots of DCC tutorials.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiYSe1k42_8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4Mqdskqt1Q

 

 

Larry

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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, May 27, 2016 10:53 AM

Simply stated, with DC you control your trains by routing the power to those sections of track you want your train to run. With DCC, however, you control the loco. This allows you to control more than one loco on the same stretch of track while at the same time reducing the amount of wiring on your layout.

DCC also has some value added features, like selecting performance characteristics of your loco, slow speed performance, momentum, acceleration and deceleration etc.

You don´t need to be an electronics expert to get DCC up and running, just two wires to your command station is all you need.

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Posted by BRAKIE on Friday, May 27, 2016 4:58 PM

Sir Madog
Simply stated, with DC you control your trains by routing the power to those sections of track you want your train to run.

The flip side.. One usually set the blocks ahead and just let 'em run or used a power pack on simple layouts. On operation type layout a dispatcher was used in most cases.

In DCC its wise to have "power" blocks on large layouts in case there is a short.

My last ISL didn't have blocks just two wires from the Tech 6  to the track and by a simple push of a button I went to DCC mode. Push the botton again and its DC.

Larry

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Posted by richhotrain on Friday, May 27, 2016 5:21 PM

After I put away my American Flyer trains back in 1961, I was out of the hobby until 2004 when I set up a small DC layout. The guys at my LHS persuaded me to convert to DCC so I could run multiple trains without block wiring.  I bought an NCE PH-Pro 5 amp system, and the Owner's Manual told me everything that I needed to know, no books required. You should do the same.

Rich

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Posted by BigDaddy on Friday, May 27, 2016 5:48 PM

Having not done my first DCC conversion, I don't have sound.  My initial reading of sound was it was a must have, people seemed not to run their non sound engines once they converted to DCC

As I stick around longer, I realize sound is controversial.  The people (50% statistically) who stick to DC are not unhappy.  Others find sound a distraction.  It doesn't "scale" well over HO distances.  I cannot imagine liking "crew chatter" 

I have only had 2 layouts, not counting the present one under construction.  Neither had dual cab control.  I am just 6 months ahead of you in getting back into MR  and I am building a DCC small layout.  Just testing tracks with my 2 DCC locos, I get a kick out of independendant control. 

I'll get back to you on sound

Henry

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Posted by gregc on Friday, May 27, 2016 6:07 PM

no blocks, no panel switches, no cab control, control multiple locos on same track

greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading

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Posted by jjdamnit on Friday, May 27, 2016 7:32 PM

Hello all,

Welcome to the forums!

Volumes have been written regarding your seemingly simplistic question.

As Albert Einstein said, "When you 'open a can of worms' the only way to get all the worms back in the can is to use a bigger can."

There are many great websites that deal with DCC primer.

I suggest going to the NMRA website. Another source I've found is The DCC Guy.

Manufacturer's websites also can be helpful or confusing: TCS, Digitrax, NCE, and others are worth looking at.

As an electrician that lived through the evolution of dimmer control from analog to digital the difference between the two is that analog (DC) requires a separate control wire for each circuit and a return or negative, while a digital (DCC) only requires a single control and return wire for everything. (An extremely simplified explanation.)

DC control varies the voltage through a rheostat that excites the track. This variable voltage in turn excites the DC motor, turns gears and moves the locomotive.

DCC control is a constant voltage that sends "packets" of information; think of the way e-mail works.

Each information packet has an address code; similar to an e-mail address. Only the addressee "listens" to the commands coded in the packet. Just like the addressee of an e-mail opens and reads the "sent" message.

This communication is sent from the DCC controller to the onboard DCC mobile decoder on the locomotive or other such equipped rolling stock.

This is why each decoder has a specific address.

If two decoders (or more) share the same address then all will respond to the same command packets and all will perform the same specified movements.

The packets are "last command sent" priority. This means that you can send a packet information and the corresponding decoder will read that packet and execute that series of movements until the next packet overwrites the last command. 

One decoder will hold the last command sent and then you can send another packet to a different decoder, specifying a different series of movements.

A mainline locomotive will run on the mainline track AND you can simultaneously run a switcher in the yard without having to power and unpower DC blocks.

Again, this is an extremely simplified explanation of what the potential DCC offers.

In my personal experience I should have adopted DCC initially rather than going though the dead-end expense of DC.

Hope this helps.

"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"

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Posted by BRAKIE on Friday, May 27, 2016 7:34 PM

Greg,Nice,tidy and easy to wire DCC...

What's there not to like about  DCC?

At one time I said a small one horse switching layout didn't need DCC and that still rings true but,IMHO Sound is far better with DCC then straight DC and that's when a small one horse switching layout   needs DCC the most.

Larry

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Posted by hon30critter on Friday, May 27, 2016 11:01 PM

Hey Oliver!

Welcome to the forums and back to the hobby!!!    Welcome

You definitely need to do some reading, and great suggestions on where to find information have been offered so I won't repeat them.

What I want to tell you is that DCC is easy to set up and get running. Certainly it can become very complex as you get into the details and learn to use more of its features, but for initial start up you can have a locomotive running in a few minutes. Therefore, I suggest spending your initial time choosing a system, then get a small piece of track set up, and then run a locomotive. After you have done that, then you can start to delve into the details.

As far as choosing a system, there have been lots of threads on the forums about which system is best. Basically, if I can boil all of the thoughts and comments down, the general opinion is that there are two main contenders - Digitrax and NCE. If you were to start a thread telling us what size layout you envisage and how many locomotives you would like to run (including other operaters on the layout if any), then we could help you fine tune your choices.

Personally, I am an NCE Power Cab user and I am very satisfied with the system. It meets all my current needs and it is expandable if needs be. Digitrax offers a few options that NCE does not, mostly in terms of communication and signals control, which you owe it to yourself to explore because they may appeal to you a lot, or not.

One additional suggestion. When you get your first sound equipped locomotive turn the volume way down. Otherwise it will drive you nuts!Smile, Wink & Grin

Regards,

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by trainnut1250 on Monday, May 30, 2016 2:44 AM

OliverHevvy
But it sounds like today's DCC is well past that.

Yep!! Without a doubt the single greatest thing to happen in the hobby in the  recent past. (Just an opinion - not a fact) After using analog blocks for many years DCC was a breath of fresh air. I think you will like it.

Guy

see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site

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Posted by trainnut1250 on Monday, May 30, 2016 2:53 AM

BigDaddy
As I stick around longer, I realize sound is controversial.

It depends - certainly online this appears to be true.

On the other hand, where I live almost every layout that I have visited has sound and DCC. Sound is not that controversial in my area. It has taken awhile, but just about every modeler I know has sound locomotives.

 

Guy

see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site

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Posted by gregc on Monday, May 30, 2016 8:13 AM

Sound adds a very nice dimension to modeling. 

But on the club layout, the sound level on some engines is too much, and I think become annoying.    At home, running trains could be done at any time of day or night without worries, but could become a problem with sound.   Fortunately, I believe most have a mute button to shut it off.

greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading

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Posted by Lake on Monday, May 30, 2016 10:30 PM

I bought 2 of the Kalmbach books on DCC, then once I bought my Digitrax system, the manuals with it and the books gave me all I needed to know to get started, plus way more then I will most likely ever use.

Ken G Price   My N-Scale Layout

Digitrax Super Empire Builder Radio System. South Valley Texas Railroad. SVTRR

N-Scale out west. 1996-1998 or so! UP, SP, Missouri Pacific, C&NW.

jfb
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Posted by jfb on Tuesday, May 31, 2016 11:15 AM
I am not dumping on dcc railroads but from a cost perspective if you have the old and functional stuff why not use it dcc can be pricey.
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Posted by OliverHevvy on Tuesday, May 31, 2016 12:50 PM

Wow, when it rains, it pours! I was away from the compooter for a few days and I come back to all these lovely responses. Thanks!

I plan to order some of the books that are mentioned. When my brother and I built an HO layout back in the early 80s, we block-wired it, had reversing loops, and all that. Being an electronics person, the wiring doesn't scare me, but I prefer to understand what I'm doing, rather than blindly following directions.

The old system from the early 80s? CTC-16, it was called. I remembered finally. It uses the same concepts, I guess. Constant DC voltage, with a pulse train on top of that carrying info. 

My initial layout plans are small. For one thing, I expect to move in a year or three. For another, I have little space where I am now. Also, I discovered I liked building structures and weathering rolling stock as much or more as I did driving the trains around. I get that some folks really like the operating challenge, but I'm not one.

Anyway, off to order some books. Thanks again!

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Posted by Phoebe Vet on Tuesday, May 31, 2016 12:50 PM

People who think DCC is complicated have confused what you CAN do with what you MUST do.

It can be as simple or as complex as you wish.  Cost comes with complexity.

My personal preference is DIGITRAX, but there are several quality systems.

 

Dave

Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow

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Posted by Lake on Tuesday, May 31, 2016 1:39 PM

jfb
I am not dumping on dcc railroads but from a cost perspective if you have the old and functional stuff why not use it dcc can be pricey.

There's that word, If!
If you have functional stuff. But if starting new or having bearly functional engines compared to what is now out, then the fustration may far out way any extra expense. None of my engines I had from the 70's were even close to the quality of what I bought in 2005. Into the trash all 5 went.
 
To do a layout like mine with block wiring, switchs for blocks, and multiple high quality power packs, plus the must have, of walk around tetherd throtles, DCC was a no brainer, even with at least a 20% extra cost.
 
But this is just my opinion, this time around with my first none DC block layout. Not that I did not have fun with the earlier ones. Just not as much as I have now!Big Smile

Ken G Price   My N-Scale Layout

Digitrax Super Empire Builder Radio System. South Valley Texas Railroad. SVTRR

N-Scale out west. 1996-1998 or so! UP, SP, Missouri Pacific, C&NW.

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Posted by gregc on Tuesday, May 31, 2016 3:29 PM

jfb
from a cost perspective if you have the old and functional stuff why not use it dcc can be pricey.

that's the dilema of considering changing to any of the various systems available today as well as the hypothetical improvements possible with newer technology.

ideally, new systems would be backward compatible with old ones, at least minimizing the loss of investment in the old system.

greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading

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Posted by Phoebe Vet on Tuesday, May 31, 2016 4:33 PM

OliverHevvy

The old system from the early 80s? CTC-16, it was called. I remembered finally. It uses the same concepts, I guess. Constant DC voltage, with a pulse train on top of that carrying info. 

 

DCC is not constant DC.  It is high frequency, constant voltage, square wave AC with the digital signal sent by varying the width and spacing of the pulses.  It is not a sign wave, so a standard multimeter will not read it acurately, but can be used to test for voltage.

Dave

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Posted by rrinker on Tuesday, May 31, 2016 7:28 PM

 Most of the early command control systems liek CTC16 used a fixed DC voltage with a small AC control signal riding on top. The downfall of these systems is that the low amplitude signal was easily lost in noise generated by arcing motor brushes and pickups. Plus they relied on the receiver timing to select the proper address to listen to, and resistors and capacitors, unless using special low temperature coefficient parts, are prone to drift in value as the temperature changes. Bruce Chubb wrote an article in MR back in the day on improving the design of the CTC16 receiver to help avoid some of these issues, since he was an early user of the system.

 Marklin Digital and the Lenz system, as well at the Hornby Zero-1 used a system similar to current DCC in which the control signal is also the power source. DCC is standardized by the NMRA and at the track level, all systems work with all decoders. You aren;t stuck with any single manufacturer, and now with free software like JMRI you can use smartphones as throttles so even if you DCC manufacturer goes belly up, you can still add more throttles in this fashion. Plus depending on the system, there are many third party alternatives - the most being for Digitrax - systems from ESU and Intellibox support the Loconet protocol, and there are other throttle options like FredI from the FREEMO group which is a Loconet compatible throttle. Not to mention all the signal and detection components such as those from RR-CirKits and TeamDigital. You can build a complete Digitrax Loconet DCC system without using a single product made by Digitrax.

                         --Randy

 


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Posted by Bayfield Transfer Railway on Tuesday, May 31, 2016 11:22 PM

Nowadays if you're just starting your layout there is virtually no reason not to use DCC.  It's not really that complicated, and if you want true independent control for several trains at once it's not really more expensive than conventional DC.

You mentioned a tech background.  DCC is a serial protocol using the rails as the serial bus and sending variable-length asynchronous packets to all locomotives down the bus.  The true genius in my opinion is making the data signal ALSO be the power.  Does that help any?

Disclaimer:  This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.

Michael Mornard

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Posted by OliverHevvy on Wednesday, June 1, 2016 1:28 PM

So DCC went full AC? No problem, rectifiers are cheap. Thanks again for all the info. I found the official specs on the NMRA site, and they are interesting reading if you're a network hardware engineer. Which I was.  ;-)

Since I am mostly starting fresh, I suspect I will go the DCC route. The idea of running my trains from my iPhone seems amusing. And it will be interesting to add control of other things, like lights and such. My wife's interest in this is more in the buildings and scenery, and the sort of imaginary world we are creating. She grew up alongside the Camas Prairie RR, which gives you some idea of what we are planning.

BTW, I am reading the DCC specs and reference stuff now, so at least from a theory point of view I'll be an expert in no time.  ;-)

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Posted by OliverHevvy on Wednesday, June 1, 2016 1:40 PM

My, they don't give this stuff away, do they? One poster recommended the NCE PH-Pro 5 system. $600! I'm sure there are lower-cost options, and I'm not saying that's a deal-breaker, but it's not trivial, either.

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Posted by Bayfield Transfer Railway on Thursday, June 2, 2016 7:55 PM

Well, model railroad equipment is a luxury good, after all; that is, nobody needs it.  So the price is "all the traffic will bear."

On the other hand, Bachmann has cleaned up their act a lot, and Bachmann DCC locos can be had for about $100.  The initial starter set can be expensive, but it's often a one time, or nearly one time, purchase.

On the other other hand, if you take the prices from the 1956 American Flyer catalog and adjust for inflation, an American Flyer GP7 would cost about $215.  For an American Flyer engine.


I use EasyDCC myself.  Digitrax also works well.

Disclaimer:  This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.

Michael Mornard

Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!

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Posted by SouthPenn on Thursday, June 2, 2016 10:49 PM

NCE PowerPro 5 Amp system, $399.00.

South Penn

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