After decades I finally upgraded an existing layout to DCC. Six months later it appears that all the bugs are out of it (knock on wood).
After all that time, starting with a Lionel set at age 2, then moving to HO in my late teens, I recently experienced somthing I've always wanted in model railroading. Running the trains with constant level lighting, especially passenger cars, lighted, that I recently detailed the interiors, sound, more sounds than my childhood Lionel ever had. All because of DCC. A real milestone. And I've just scratched the surface.
Yes, there is a learning curve (albiet sometimes very frustrating), but if you're starting new and have nothing to unlearn or getting back in after a long, long absence there's no reason to not go DCC.
It hasn't for 20 years. Not likely.
But it's one reason I would think my concept of a BT enabled throttle (because there is a large subset of DCC users who do NOT want touchscreens for throttles - they want a real knob to turn) to work with pretty much with any smartphone, which would then leverage JMRI or RocRail's smrtphone support to provide a universal throttle that will work with any DCC system supported by those software packages is a good idea.
Of course then it would be NCE throttle is better! No, Digitrax throttle is better! No, Universal Throttle is best!
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
The NCE vs Digitrax vs others, etc debate reminds me of the interoperability wars in computer control networks 30 years ago.... ;-) It will settle out eventually. I hope.
If I was starting new or replacing any DCC system I would give RailPro a serious look. I am testing a 5 engine consist with RailPro and IMHO, nothing else comes remotely close. I really wish I had known about RailPro when I replaced my Digitrax junk.
Whereas in my neck of the woods it's NCE that gets replaced.
I've used NCE, Digitrax, Easy DCC, and Lenz. NCE is my LAST choice.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
hornblower If you should go DCC, consider the following: Several people at a small gathering of operations minded model railroaders I attended over the weekend were sharing stories about how often their Digitrax systems act up, often running beautifully one day and then running strangely or not at all the next. They were also complaining that the correct "FIX" is always different depending on which Digitrax expert you contact. Often the "FIX" occurs all by itself by either leaving the system alone for some period of time or following all sorts of futile repairs/component replacements that caused no progress but the system suddenly restored itself anyway. Eventually, the following question was raised: "If you were to totally start over, would you use Digitrax to power your layout?" Most everyone with existing Digitrax systems agreed that, if they were not already tied to it at "the club" they would not use it again if they were to start over. Although there were a few misgivings regarding the size of the NCE throttles, most said they would start over using NCE (if they were to start over).
If you should go DCC, consider the following:
Several people at a small gathering of operations minded model railroaders I attended over the weekend were sharing stories about how often their Digitrax systems act up, often running beautifully one day and then running strangely or not at all the next. They were also complaining that the correct "FIX" is always different depending on which Digitrax expert you contact. Often the "FIX" occurs all by itself by either leaving the system alone for some period of time or following all sorts of futile repairs/component replacements that caused no progress but the system suddenly restored itself anyway.
Eventually, the following question was raised:
"If you were to totally start over, would you use Digitrax to power your layout?"
Most everyone with existing Digitrax systems agreed that, if they were not already tied to it at "the club" they would not use it again if they were to start over. Although there were a few misgivings regarding the size of the NCE throttles, most said they would start over using NCE (if they were to start over).
I agree. That's some of the reasons I replaced my Digitrax with an NCE system.
Phoebe Vet hornblower If you should go DCC, consider the following: Several people at a small gathering of operations minded model railroaders I attended over the weekend were sharing stories about how often their Digitrax systems act up, often running beautifully one day and then running strangely or not at all the next. They were also complaining that the correct "FIX" is always different depending on which Digitrax expert you contact. Often the "FIX" occurs all by itself by either leaving the system alone for some period of time or following all sorts of futile repairs/component replacements that caused no progress but the system suddenly restored itself anyway. Eventually, the following question was raised: "If you were to totally start over, would you use Digitrax to power your layout?" Most everyone with existing Digitrax systems agreed that, if they were not already tied to it at "the club" they would not use it again if they were to start over. Although there were a few misgivings regarding the size of the NCE throttles, most said they would start over using NCE (if they were to start over). That's odd. My Digitrax system is reliable and Loconet serves all of my needs.
That's odd. My Digitrax system is reliable and Loconet serves all of my needs.
Dave,
I'm quite sure it is entirely possible to put together a reliable DCC system using any brand system. I just thought it rather interesting that so many people in one group of experienced DCC users were fed up with Digitrax gremlins. I have been at three different operating sessions were the session was interrupted while some portion of the Digitrax system required attention. One of these sessions had to be entirely abandoned because the problem could not be found (and was not found for a couple of weeks).
Hornblower
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
OliverHevvyI'm sure there are lower-cost options,
Are you aware of the DCC++ project going on? Someone showed how to build a DCC base station which can be made for about $30 using an Arduino clone, no soldering required. He wrote the software to generate the DCC signals and released it as open-source.
The main downside is that it needs to be hooked up to a computer running JMRI (which is free.) You can use a cell phone as a wireless throttle. There are also a couple of guys designing more conventional throttles with knobs.
There's an entire subforum devoted to DCC++ over at the Trainboard forums..
Here's the DCC++ Youtube page...
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJmvQx-fe0OMAIH-_g-_rZw
Here's a video of a throttle Dave Bodnar recently made...
Steve S
Also, reading the NMRA DCC spec was a good idea. Took me a while to figure it all out, but I'm glad I did.
But it's a lot more fun when you only have your own deadlines.Really, you can equip a 2 or 3 train railroad for a couple of hundred bucks in pretty much any system. Ultimately it comes down to what you like. I chose EasyDCC because I like the shape of the handhelds. Digitrax would be my second choice. If your layout is small enough that you can get away with tethered throttles Digitrax may even be a first choice.
Interestingly, I've noticed that preferred DCC system tends to be regional. The Boston area and Minnesota/Wisconsin are full of Digitrax, and Kansas City is a mix of Digitrax and EasyDCC.
Oh, I'm not complaining. I used to road-race motorcycles. Want to talk about how to spend money quickly? ;-)
I am looking forward to doing more with DCC. As an electronics person with long experience in networking and microprocessors, it's a good fit, althought it's also a bit of a busman's holiday. In retirement, you are NOT supposed to do what you did for a living. ;-)
NCE Powercab. Less than $200.
And the same seller (a very good one - I buy most of my stuff from them as they are almost local and shipping is fast - also, they have a true live inventory system that works - not just DCC stuff, all models and supplies) has the Digitrax Super Chief Xtra for $340. http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/Digitrax-SCFX-Super-Chief-Xtra-5-Amp-Starter-Set-p/dig-scfx.htm
OliverHevvy My, they don't give this stuff away, do they? One poster recommended the NCE PH-Pro 5 system. $600! I'm sure there are lower-cost options, and I'm not saying that's a deal-breaker, but it's not trivial, either.
My, they don't give this stuff away, do they? One poster recommended the NCE PH-Pro 5 system. $600! I'm sure there are lower-cost options, and I'm not saying that's a deal-breaker, but it's not trivial, either.
You need to research this stuff a little better.
Rich
Alton Junction
SouthPennNCE PowerPro 5 Amp system, $399.00.
That's attractive! For that price, going to the Power Pro is a no brainer even though you have to buy the power supply separately ($47.99).
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
NCE PowerPro 5 Amp system, $399.00.
Well, model railroad equipment is a luxury good, after all; that is, nobody needs it. So the price is "all the traffic will bear."On the other hand, Bachmann has cleaned up their act a lot, and Bachmann DCC locos can be had for about $100. The initial starter set can be expensive, but it's often a one time, or nearly one time, purchase.
On the other other hand, if you take the prices from the 1956 American Flyer catalog and adjust for inflation, an American Flyer GP7 would cost about $215. For an American Flyer engine.
I use EasyDCC myself. Digitrax also works well.
So DCC went full AC? No problem, rectifiers are cheap. Thanks again for all the info. I found the official specs on the NMRA site, and they are interesting reading if you're a network hardware engineer. Which I was. ;-)
Since I am mostly starting fresh, I suspect I will go the DCC route. The idea of running my trains from my iPhone seems amusing. And it will be interesting to add control of other things, like lights and such. My wife's interest in this is more in the buildings and scenery, and the sort of imaginary world we are creating. She grew up alongside the Camas Prairie RR, which gives you some idea of what we are planning.
BTW, I am reading the DCC specs and reference stuff now, so at least from a theory point of view I'll be an expert in no time. ;-)
Nowadays if you're just starting your layout there is virtually no reason not to use DCC. It's not really that complicated, and if you want true independent control for several trains at once it's not really more expensive than conventional DC.
You mentioned a tech background. DCC is a serial protocol using the rails as the serial bus and sending variable-length asynchronous packets to all locomotives down the bus. The true genius in my opinion is making the data signal ALSO be the power. Does that help any?
Most of the early command control systems liek CTC16 used a fixed DC voltage with a small AC control signal riding on top. The downfall of these systems is that the low amplitude signal was easily lost in noise generated by arcing motor brushes and pickups. Plus they relied on the receiver timing to select the proper address to listen to, and resistors and capacitors, unless using special low temperature coefficient parts, are prone to drift in value as the temperature changes. Bruce Chubb wrote an article in MR back in the day on improving the design of the CTC16 receiver to help avoid some of these issues, since he was an early user of the system.
Marklin Digital and the Lenz system, as well at the Hornby Zero-1 used a system similar to current DCC in which the control signal is also the power source. DCC is standardized by the NMRA and at the track level, all systems work with all decoders. You aren;t stuck with any single manufacturer, and now with free software like JMRI you can use smartphones as throttles so even if you DCC manufacturer goes belly up, you can still add more throttles in this fashion. Plus depending on the system, there are many third party alternatives - the most being for Digitrax - systems from ESU and Intellibox support the Loconet protocol, and there are other throttle options like FredI from the FREEMO group which is a Loconet compatible throttle. Not to mention all the signal and detection components such as those from RR-CirKits and TeamDigital. You can build a complete Digitrax Loconet DCC system without using a single product made by Digitrax.
OliverHevvy The old system from the early 80s? CTC-16, it was called. I remembered finally. It uses the same concepts, I guess. Constant DC voltage, with a pulse train on top of that carrying info.
The old system from the early 80s? CTC-16, it was called. I remembered finally. It uses the same concepts, I guess. Constant DC voltage, with a pulse train on top of that carrying info.
DCC is not constant DC. It is high frequency, constant voltage, square wave AC with the digital signal sent by varying the width and spacing of the pulses. It is not a sign wave, so a standard multimeter will not read it acurately, but can be used to test for voltage.
jfb from a cost perspective if you have the old and functional stuff why not use it dcc can be pricey.
that's the dilema of considering changing to any of the various systems available today as well as the hypothetical improvements possible with newer technology.
ideally, new systems would be backward compatible with old ones, at least minimizing the loss of investment in the old system.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
jfbI am not dumping on dcc railroads but from a cost perspective if you have the old and functional stuff why not use it dcc can be pricey.
Ken G Price My N-Scale Layout
Digitrax Super Empire Builder Radio System. South Valley Texas Railroad. SVTRR
N-Scale out west. 1996-1998 or so! UP, SP, Missouri Pacific, C&NW.
People who think DCC is complicated have confused what you CAN do with what you MUST do.
It can be as simple or as complex as you wish. Cost comes with complexity.
My personal preference is DIGITRAX, but there are several quality systems.
Wow, when it rains, it pours! I was away from the compooter for a few days and I come back to all these lovely responses. Thanks!
I plan to order some of the books that are mentioned. When my brother and I built an HO layout back in the early 80s, we block-wired it, had reversing loops, and all that. Being an electronics person, the wiring doesn't scare me, but I prefer to understand what I'm doing, rather than blindly following directions.
My initial layout plans are small. For one thing, I expect to move in a year or three. For another, I have little space where I am now. Also, I discovered I liked building structures and weathering rolling stock as much or more as I did driving the trains around. I get that some folks really like the operating challenge, but I'm not one.
Anyway, off to order some books. Thanks again!