rrinkerGuess they realized they need to up the diesel game as well or risk a large part of the market to competitors.
I'm not sure why the diesel Tsu ended up where it did. But steam fans have generally been pretty happy with a few issues that seem to have been addressed now with the Tsu2. Based on what I've heard about it, it does sound like Soundtraxx has put a lot of effort into diesel this time.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Interesting. So not only were original Tsunami steam whistles better quality than their diesel horns, they had more advanced effects in the steam models. I model the mid 50's and I can only legitimately have a couple of steamers around, my fleet is almost all diesl, and I never liked the performance or sound quality in the one Tsunami diesel decoder I had, which is why I traded it for the same loco with a Loksound Select in it. Guess they realized they need to up the diesel game as well or risk a large part of the market to competitors.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinker Ken Patterson explains it in his video, actually. It's a bit like "silent running" or "supersonic" used to describe motor drives, every manufacturer has their own name for it, because Soundtraxx is not the first with this - the TCS WOWSound decoders have the same sort of feature.
True, in diesel, DDE is something new with the Tsunami2. But for steam, DDE was there from the beginning so it's a feature steam Tsunami users have enjoyed for going on a decade now.
I haven't delved into the new diesel Tsu2 DDE yet. In the original Tsunami steam flavor, there are four CVs that control it. Users trade around different CV "menus" in order to "get in the ballpark" with DDE, then further adjustment can be made to optimize it to each loco. Because there are differences in weight, motors, drivetrain friction, etc, each loco is a little different in how it responds to an identical set of DDE CV settings. Once you have that dialed in and two steamers speed-matched, the resulting double-headers sound magificent. If the Tsu2 gets you something similar in diesel, then there will be lots of folks very please with it.
Ken Patterson explains it in his video, actually. It's a bit like "silent running" or "supersonic" used to describe motor drives, every manufacturer has their own name for it, because Soundtraxx is not the first with this - the TCS WOWSound decoders have the same sort of feature. Basically is adjust the chuff/prime mover based on actual load on the decoder plus the throttle position, so as you go up a grade the chuffs get heavier and coming down grade the soften out and the rod clank noise comes up. Or on a diesel the prime mover stays cranked up climbing the hill and then going down it notches back even though the speed si the same. Like on the prototype when pulling a grade, the prime mover is chugging away like crazy but the whole train is only going 10mph. The old way was to manually adjust the sound using manual notching if you wanted the prime mover out of sync with the throttle position to simulate this sort of thing, this gives an automatic way to accomplish this so you can just control the train and the sounds will take care of themselves.
Loksound has added something liek this to the Select as well, or it's being tested, there was a video posted recently on their Facebook page about it. This is where Loksound still has them beat - I have Select decoders purchased well before this feature, however I can update to the latest firmware and get these features without having to buy a new model decoder.
maxman tstage so I had look that one up: Dynamic Digital Exhaust Okay, thanks. That's helpful. However it still doesn't tell me what it does.
tstage so I had look that one up: Dynamic Digital Exhaust
Okay, thanks. That's helpful. However it still doesn't tell me what it does.
Yea, I agree. I'm sure Mike will help elaborate on it for us less-informed.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
tstageso I had look that one up: Dynamic Digital Exhaust
Okay, thanks. That's helpful. However it still doesn't tell me what it does. Sounds to me like a marketing ploy, like when they used to advertise cars with roller bearing ashtrays.
maxman mlehman A lot of this has to do with DDE. What is "DDE"?
mlehman A lot of this has to do with DDE.
What is "DDE"?
Even though he was around to hear both steam and diesel, I sorta figured it probably wasn't Dwight D. Eisenhower so I had look that one up: Dynamic Digital Exhaust.
mlehmanA lot of this has to do with DDE.
mlehmanI didn't find much from just reading that seemed all that profound to me, except the user-uploadable file capability and the fact that they seem dialed-in right out of the box. I think the latter is as much tied to the fact that the dealer uploads specific files when the recoder is sold?
The advantage to the dealer is that he only has to stock one decoder, which then gets loaded with the desired sound program.
The advantage to the purchaser is that when he goes to the dealer he doesn't have to wait until the dealer orders and receives the SD40, U23B, or ALco whatever that the dealer doesn't happen to have sitting on the shelf. Another purchaser advantage is that if any one of the sound programs gets modified or upgraded in any way, it is just a matter of reloading the existing decoder. And that can be done without removing the decoder from the loco.
THaymanObviously we'll have to wait to see the final product, but I suspect the reason that a lot of people have reacted negatively so far (at least for the diesels) is that what Soundtraxx has revealed about the new decoder simply doesn't seem like all that huge of an improvement over the old Tsunami. I'm sure lots of people will end up liking it just fine, but at the moment it just doesn't seem overly exciting as an upgrade
Tim,
I wondered about that myself, then I went over to the ESU site. They tend to use a lot of words like "revolutionary" and so many superlatives you'd think it was some strange speeling bee going on.
I didn't find much from just reading that seemed all that profound to me, except the user-uploadable file capability and the fact that they seem dialed-in right out of the box. I think the latter is as much tied to the fact that the dealer uploads specific files when the recoder is sold? So you get something very specific and, gee, sounds revolutionary because that's what they were told it was gonna be.
And that's all great marketing. Meet some very specific expectations that you've taken the trouble to cultivate. Nothing wrong with that so long as people are happy with what they're buying.
THaymanI'm not dismissing these outright, and as mlehman rightly points out, there's probably lots of things you can do with the Tsu2 that we'll have to wait and see. It's just going to be a tough sell, and nothing in Soundtraxx's initial promotion and marketing of the Tsu2 has given me anything to be excited about...
But strangely enough, plenty of folks seems pretty darn happy with the Tsunami, buying them in droves. Less hype in the marketing to be sure, but that's because Soundtraxx takes a more sedate approach to what they do. For whatever reason, I think it fits with the average ST customer. We're not expecting hype and we have pretty much the same expectations as we did 30, 40, or 50 years ago...and Soundtraxx has met them.
It was mentioned by Jim that steam Tsunami users are particularly happy with what they've had and that's generally true. WOW is pushing some buttons, but Blackstone's next locos will come with the Tsu2 (and I suspect it will be a not yet available NG special version of the Tsu2). In any case, steam and particularly narrowgauge users tend to be more hands-on with their equipment and we're pretty happy with the tools we've had and are looking forward to many more choices with the Tsu2. In that we're different in what makes us happy. ESU users seem to want a very precise sound as "right" and then they're good, while steam Tsu users often enjoy experimenting with getting different effects.
A lot of this has to do with DDE. I remember reading so many comments just dumping on diesel Tsunamis and I'm thinking"They've obnviously not read the DDE part of the manual..." but then the revelation that there was no diesel DDE, well, suddenly I understood what was likely missing. I'm excited that DDE is finally available in diesel with the Tsu2, because I have some installs planned once funds become available.
I think that people need to be clear which type of locomotive they're working with (i.e. steam or diesel), because the opinions on the two of them are quite different (with good reason).
That hasn't been lost on me as I have read these discussions.
Most of the positive reactions to the new Tsu2 seem to be from steam modellers, while most of the negative reactions are from diesel modellers. I think sometimes people do each other a disservice by arguing when they're really comparing 2 different things - e.g. steam guy says "the new Tsu2 sounds great!", while the diesel guy says "you're wrong, the Tsu2 sounds awful!" - it's possible that both of them are right, for their respective loco types.
True. That seems to be what I'm seeing too. But what I don't understand is why the steam people defend ST to the bloody end to diesel people. It's kind of like like a classical music person definding something music related to a rock fan. I'm not sure if thats a fair comparison or not, but try to follow me here - if ST is really good at steam, thats fine but don't defend the company to a diesel guy if they, as a group, aren't happy. Really how much sense does that make?
woodoneWow!! Here we have a brand new decoder that has come out and some people have already started negative posts. Let’s wait until the decoder has hit the modeler to get some good feedback.
Here we have a brand new decoder that has come out and some people have already started negative posts.
Let’s wait until the decoder has hit the modeler to get some good feedback.
Woodone, I don't really have a horse in this race but I've read a great deal of comment on ST diesel over the past year or so. Does ST make junk? No but they appear to have fallen pretty far behind for the diesel fans when compared to some of the other offerings. That happens to other products - cars, or what have you. Companies that fall into this situation sometimes have their work cut out for them to overcome perceptions, whether fair or not.
My feeling is if ST has a real contender to ESU Loksound Selects, then that will be born out over time. You are not going to stop some people from voicing their skepticism if they feel they have a reason for it - but again, given time that will evaporate if the newer product demonstrates real "chops" to use a musicians term.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
woodone Here we have a brand new decoder that has come out and some people have already started negative posts. The product is not even on the dealer’s shelves yet. The video has background music in it (Must be a TV producer has they use background music to drown out the actors lines). So what are we hearing? Sound through a video camera and then played through your speakers on your computer. NOT a good test IMO.
The product is not even on the dealer’s shelves yet. The video has background music in it (Must be a TV producer has they use background music to drown out the actors lines). So what are we hearing? Sound through a video camera and then played through your speakers on your computer. NOT a good test IMO.
Obviously we'll have to wait to see the final product, but I suspect the reason that a lot of people have reacted negatively so far (at least for the diesels) is that what Soundtraxx has revealed about the new decoder simply doesn't seem like all that huge of an improvement over the old Tsunami. I'm sure lots of people will end up liking it just fine, but at the moment it just doesn't seem overly exciting as an upgrade.
As for the sound samples: there's more than that video. Soundtraxx has put samples of all of the prime movers and all of the horns up on their website (for those who haven't seen it: http://www.soundtraxx.com/dsd/tsunami2/tsunamisound_2.php). I certainly think that's a pretty fair way to judge what to expect from the sound on the decoders.
I listened through every single horn sample the other day, and I was just really unimpressed. If you start with base recordings that are as lackluster as those are, there's only so much you can do to improve the sound on the decoder. Sure, the selection is good - but having 50 different horns to chose from doesn't help when the horns you want to use all sound, well...lousy. That has been one of their single biggest failing on their diesels, and I'm just bummed that they haven't improved it.
I'm not dismissing these outright, and as mlehman rightly points out, there's probably lots of things you can do with the Tsu2 that we'll have to wait and see. It's just going to be a tough sell, and nothing in Soundtraxx's initial promotion and marketing of the Tsu2 has given me anything to be excited about...
-Tim
Wow!!
Anyway I had the privilege of doing some Beta testing on the Tsunami 2. Now I model in N scale but do DCC work (installs) in all scales.
So I have actually held this in my hands and worked with it.
First I would say that what I tested was very good with speed control. I don't know of too many people that run their units at a speed of less than 1 MPH. Horns-with 40 horns I would guess that if they put in 100 of them, someone would find one they wanted and it was not there- so the decoder is BAD?
Sound volume- WAY too loud IMO. Some will like it, most will have to turn the volume down.
We modelers have a very good supply of sound decoders, some will fit the needs of one and maybe not the other. We do have choices.
Be thankful that we have a decoder manufacture that is made in the good old USA!
Graff has a good point here, one that speaks to the artificiality of some of the way in which people assess low speed performance. It's a lot like arguing what's the most important blade on a Swiss Army knife -- in which there seems to be the feeling expressed because one blade on it isn't absolutely like that on the single bladed knife they're most fond of. Moreover, that blade can be adjusted to be more suitable, if one takes the time and trouble to do so. In the RTR era, I guess some folks expect EVERYTHING to be RTR right out of the box, no matter what it's installed in. Soundtraxx takes a bit different design approach, leaving final dialing in to the modeler in some cases, because one size does not fit all. If you want a shake-the-box decoder, they are available for those who can't be bothered with some hands-on hobby time.
THayman also makes an very important distinction between steam and diesel. Most of the grouching about the Tsunami was, in fact, from the diesel side of things, although that distinction is rarely made by critics. And that fuzzy and not always accurate complaining seems to have carried over in much of the initial reaction to the Tsu2 -- long before the critics have ever actually got their mitts on one. That leads me to believe that much of the initial reaction like that is simply a holdover from the Tsunami, rather than having a basis in what the Tsu2 actually does.
That said, hearing what is in effect the default sound over the Internet and judging "That's all their is..." is rather off base, too. You've got a variety of ways in which to modify the basic sounds to suit the application you'll be making, with 16 channels that can be modified in terms of volume, equaliztion and other aspects. It's as if people bought one of those big fancy stereos, put it together, then complain that it just doesn't sound right because they don't feel there's any need to touch a knob to adjust anything -- darn thing should just know what they want to hear, right?
While the idea that you can upload custom sound files to ESU is interesting, basically the difference is that ESU has done that customization for you. Which is fine if you want shake-the-box sound and want nothing further to do with it. In a RTR-obsessed era, that seems to work for a lot of folks, but it sells what the Tsu2 can do rather short -- and apparently without any exprience with the Tsu2 needed to jump to the conclusion that there's nothing really new here. And that's just not so.
Reading through many of the comments here and on other forums, one thing has really stood out to me: I think that people need to be clear which type of locomotive they're working with (i.e. steam or diesel), because the opinions on the two of them are quite different (with good reason).
I'm no steam expert, but the steam sounds do seem to be quite good. The whistles are even quite decent, the slow start seems better (or less noticeable), and there seem to be plenty of options to customize for the type of steamer you're running. The videos posted here of the Econami show off its excellent steam capabilities as well.
By contrast (as a diesel modeller), the diesel sounds have major issues. While some of the primer movers are quite good, there are issues with many of the specific sound choices, like the generic one-size-fits-all dynamic brakes, and the lack of more tailored primer movers. It also sounds like they've added an overly loud generic brake release sound that just doesn't sound right to my ears.
The horns remain a massive shortfall. A few of them are ok (none are really excellent), but the vast majority still sound too artificial and electronic (for lack of a better description). I listened through all the sound samples for the Tsu2 on their site and failed to find any that sounded like new or improved recordings. They lack the crisp sound and punchiness that ESU and TCS have achieved. In short, they just don't actually sound like a locomotive air horn. I know a horn isn't everything, but it's a distinctive sound that should really stand out, and it remains a knock against Soundtraxx for diesel users.
With ESU putting out continuously improved diesel sound files that are tailor-made for specific locomotives (along with so many options for customization), have ever improved sounds, and progressively more innovative operating capabilities (all of which are software updates that can be updated on any of their existing decoders), plus the top-notch competition from TCS, I honestly can't see what the Tsu2 has to offer. I was really hoping for Soundtraxx to break out something really impressive that would cause me to give them a second look, but I just don't see it.
Swedish Custom painter and model maker. My Website:
My Railroad
My Youtube:
Graff´s channel
Graffen,
Thanks so much for posting the additional video clip. That's EXACTLY what I was looking for and helps out a lot!
If my railroad tie counting calcuations are correct for HOn3, I came up with ~1.4sMPH. Still not as good as Loksound but better than the older Tsunamis. I was sorta hoping to see something in the <1sMPH range.
And thanks too, Ed, for posting your video clip. That pretty much confirms what I saw in Graffen's clip.
I was working on a quick video last night. I completed this Econommi install over a month ago and have not had time to "revisit" it. All I did was change the whistle and bell and assign an address. Everything else is still default CVs.
I just got it uploaded so YouTube may still be "finalizing" it.
Yes, Tom, the motor control is MUCH improved but—for me, there are still little issues I'd like to see improved. Between the Econammi and the WOW steam, I much prefer the WOW.
The engine is just out of the paint shop! No weathering and I still have to tuck the wires up under the cab and install a coal load. At 2:00 min. you can see the drive shaft slowly turning
At 4:00 I use F5 for "Drifting Mode" you can hear it turn off at 5:30. At 5:50 is the coffee grinder sound and at 6:00 is brake squeal. It is VERY difficult to hold a camera and throttle at the same time and try to work the functions.
I have a CurrentKeeper installed however, it is not all it's cracked up to be. Maybe I have to investigate further but, when I test the engine on dirty track it will stop dead, oh yeah, still making sound and the blue LED still lit, but the engine will not respond to any throttle commands. Yes, I know with the current interruption the decoder can not recieve new commands but somehow the decoder needs to at least keep the motor moving. Maybe there is a work-around for this?
There isnt a single DCC sound decoder out there that I would consider "ideal" but for now, I STILL prefer ESU Loksound!
Regards, Ed
Thanks, Mark - better. I like the gradual start but I still want to see a more prolonged slow start to see how well it crawls. It looks promising though.
Here's a video of a brass steamer done for me with an Econami. You can see it start from a stop at about 1:35
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGVg08_vskI
Mark
Thanks for posting the video clip. It's kinda dark and hard to make out the details. Is it possible to get a close-up view of the drivers to better see the motor control of the Economi decoder? Thanks!
I am an N scale modeler so size is very important to me as well as good sound and motor control. I have installed many Econami 100 into N scale diesels and steam. I use a sugar cube speaker for the speaker and the sound is ( well out of this world)
I have to turn down the volume a bunch!
At one point I used two locos (just alike) and installed a Econami in one and a LokSound in the otherusing the same speaker in each one. The Econami had a better (to my eare) sound than the LokSound. But the LokSound likes a 4 ohm load and the speaker I use was 8 ohm. Might make a differance.
I have done some beta testing on the new Tsunami 2's and all I can say is you better be ready for some very loud sounds couming out of this decoder.
I thought that the sounds were way too loud! But that is just my opion.
I have a new DB meter coming and will be doing some tests on several units that I install decoders into for sound volume.
Has for speed control, these things will crawl very slow.
I have instlled the LokSound into Kato's FEF #844 units and have found that you must work with the CV values in CV51-54 to make run smooth, This is due to the coreless motor- It works a whole bunch differant then the normal motors we see.
No big CV adjustments. That Soundtraxx has implemented the regular Vmid Vmax makes the adjustments so easy compared to speed tables.
I altered CV 2,3,4,5 and 6 to achieve good running.
I will take a small video of one of my Econami equipped locomotives.
That's good to here, Graffen. Did you have to adjust a number of CVs in order for your Economi decoder(s) to achieve the "good slow running" that you mention?
I'm not complaining about the new offerings of Soundtraxx. I'm basing it on my own experiences with their older decoders and what I am observing from the video clips that I've seen so far. It's possible that both are concentrating on the sound aspects of the new decoder (rather than motor-control) and I get that. I'm just hoping that someone will show these running at very slow speed along with the new sound offerings.
I wonder how many that complaints about the newer Tsunami /Econami decoders that has actually tested them?
The Econamis that I have installed in my HOn3 locomotives are very, very good. They have good slow running and the sound is very much to my liking. It's very easy to program, and the operation is very realistic. I especially like the coast function.
As I run brass locomotives, the current keeper is a very nice and cheap addition.
The decoder also handles the four chuff per revolution in various speeds.
I see it as a very good value for money!
At least the horn sounds much improved over the older Tsunamis. Definitely a better video, because Ken knows what he's doing in that regard.
But yeah, slow speed is still lacking.
Geared Steam This is a much better production. http://www.soundtraxx.com/tsu2_diesel_index_demo.mp4
This is a much better production.
http://www.soundtraxx.com/tsu2_diesel_index_demo.mp4
Yes, the overall video production is better but it just confirms what I saw in the first clip:
Sorry, Soundtraxx. You still haven't won me over yet with your motor-control.
RR Baron Geared Steam This is a much better production. http://www.soundtraxx.com/tsu2_diesel_index_demo.mp4 Assuming the whole video created by Ken Patterson, he should know better than to include a music track to compete with the decoder's sounds. RR Baron
Well based on his workload, who am I to criticize a guy who makes his living do these things.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/