The Command Station OpSw 36 has been reset. Same result.
I reset both Paragon locos to factory default, tested individually, sound & throttle worked.
Then I changed the address back 14 on each and tested each individually & together. Sound and throttle work.
Observation: when testing both locos together (uncoupled, a foot apart), when I pressed reverse direction, on one occassion the A unit reversed but the B unit didn't. Pressing reverse a couple times got them both running in the same direction again. Not sure if this has anything to do with anything - seems like a radio communications issue - "just sayin'"
FWIW, after a lengthy conversation with Broadway Limited customer service they mentioned resetting OpSw39. They also agreed to send 2 new decoders. I asked them to wait until I test this again, and reset OpSw39 as a last resort.
You can configure the system to always turn on the track power when it turns on, but I really don't recommend that, if a loco see the power come up and decides to not see the DCC signal immediately, it can take off uncontrolled as it reverts to DC operation mode. I must say, I've NEVER had the blinking power icon. But I've always been working from a tethered throttle.
It's all a computer - inconsistent operation is usualyl a sign of soemthign else being wrong. I don;t have any Paragon 2 locos, but the older BLI locos with QSI use F6 to shut things down with multiple levels of shutdown requiring multiple presses of F6. One of which is the motor is disconnected from the decoder - so you can throttle up all you want and it won't move. There have been many posts here over the years, fewer now since no one OEMs QSI, and all because they had their loco in shutdown mode.
If the Paragon 2 locos sometimes need F6 and other times don't - somethign is turning it off. I go back to one of my furst suggestions - it's entirely possibel the coin cell battery in the DCS100 is dead - this is what retains the settings whenthe power is off. If this dies, the system effectively reverts to factory defaults on power up. If it's marginal - it could corrupt the memory and cause all sorts of strange issues. You really should not just turn things off and walk away - get in the habit of properly dispatching locos and don;t leave one selected. There is nothign in the throttle to fully retain what loco was selected once power is removed from it, eithe rby unplugging or taking out the battery. The last selected loco number is usually retained but it is NOT selected as a runnign loco. Any F keys past F8 are not even stored int he command station - the throttle handles F9 and up, with Digitrax. That's why there was no command station upgrade needed when they went to 29 functions - it's a throttle function. Properly dispatching locos before shutting the system off will probably solve 99% of the issues. It's in the manual, and in an article on the tech support depot, and there is a write up in the files section of the Digitrax group on Yahoo.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
OK, I closed OpSw 36 according to the proceedure described on page 42 & 43 of the manual.
Same results
Thanks Ed.
The problem is that link shows different proceedure from what the manual says and even omits a few things. And that is one of my complaints. The documentation is inconsistent, page numbers are wrong, often off by several pages in either direction, one thing keeps refering you to another, etc.
BAD
gmpullman This will wipe out any universal consists you have setup but that's a simple matter to rebuild consists if you have any. Ed
This will wipe out any universal consists you have setup but that's a simple matter to rebuild consists if you have any.
Ed
I haven't even dared to go there yet with all the issues I've experienced.
Phoebe Vet I have a Super Chief and multiple 402D throttles. Sometimes when I first put a battery in a throttle, the last loco used appears to be selected, but doesn't respond to controlls. I just press the Loco button twice and everything works fine. It seems like I just had to select the displayed loco again.
I have a Super Chief and multiple 402D throttles. Sometimes when I first put a battery in a throttle, the last loco used appears to be selected, but doesn't respond to controlls. I just press the Loco button twice and everything works fine. It seems like I just had to select the displayed loco again.
This is another fine example. 1) It *seems* and 2)had to select the displayed loco again
WHY? This should Not be!!!!
You can use option switch 36 per the Digitrax instructions to clear all slots. This gives you a "clean slate" and assures you don't have conflicting addresses:
http://www.digitrax.com/tsd/KB595/command-station-option-switches-clear-slots-and-fa/
I dispatched the address 14 loco (Paragon2 E6B unit) from both L & R throttles.
Pressed Loco, set the L throttle to address 14, press Enter. Press Fn 6 (to start sound), sound works, still no throttle response.
I also tried analog loco and that worked. I then tried an Athearn Genesis DCC on default address 3. That worked.
I then tried another Broadway Limited Paragon2, a T1, on default address 3. That worked.
Went back to the Paragon2 B unit. Same thing. I could get the sounds to work but no throttle.
What the **** is going on?
NOTE: apparently (some?) Paragon2 locos require function button 6 to be pressed to start the sound. I haven't had to do this when I first got DCC a few weeks ago. Now it's hit or miss. Regardless, there seem to be multiple issues here, and I no longer believe that my newbie DCC status is part of the problem. How can anyone "learn" anything when the results are not consistent?
IMO this stuff is poorly designed and overly complex. Case in point: A simple thing like turning on track power. 1) Press Pwr. 2) Press Y+ 3) sometimes Track Power Indicator is still blinking even though track power is obviously on because the loco & car lights are on. 4) Press Y+ AGAIN. Track Power Indicator stops blinking. 5) Press Pwr to exit. All that just to turn track power on? Give me a break!!!!
With analog DC, 1) turn on power switch. 2) turn throttle, train moves. press horn button, horn blows. Works every time, THE SAME WAY
rrinker Your loco stopping is likely related to you seeing steal messages - it's probably selected on both throttle knobs, and one is set to stop and the other you are trying to control it with. Ths will result in the loco quite regularly responding to the stop, then all by itself resuming speed at the speed commanded on the other throttle. Over and over again. --Randy
Your loco stopping is likely related to you seeing steal messages - it's probably selected on both throttle knobs, and one is set to stop and the other you are trying to control it with. Ths will result in the loco quite regularly responding to the stop, then all by itself resuming speed at the speed commanded on the other throttle. Over and over again.
I'm not seeing any Steal messages right now. And this particular loco (Paragon A unit) was doing the stopping thing running DC. It started doing that about 6 months after I got it. Hence back to the dealer it went for inspection/testing. Dealer couldn't find anything wrong on their short test track so it was decided to reset it to factory default. That seems to have worked - while I was still using DC. Now the same issue (and more) seems to have cropped up.
How do I check if the Paragon loco is on both throttles and how do I get rid of it from the second throttle?
There is something else going on here if you could control the lights and sounds - that means the throttle was talking to the UR92 and thus to the DCS100 and out to the locos, even if you had no speed control. If here was a communciations failure, NOTHING would have worked. If the function buttons were registering, the throttle was in communications. No control over the speed could be a fault of the throttle - the knob not working, the command station - corrupt memory or similar, or the loco itself just not responding to speed packets.
Arto Randy, I think you might be onto something regarding power on sequencing. I've been beginning to suspect that certain components like the DCS100 need some time (seconds?) to boot up and get "working" first
Randy, I think you might be onto something regarding power on sequencing. I've been beginning to suspect that certain components like the DCS100 need some time (seconds?) to boot up and get "working" first
Yup, he is, and yup, it does.
Re-read (or read for the first time) what I posted a few replies above.
Just about all of these devices contain processors of some sort that have to initialize. Powering them up in an order that makes sense allows those initializations to take place serially. That basically prevents a jumble of devices in unknown states from all trying to talk on the LocoNet at the same time, or not be able to listen when they should.
Randy, I think you might be onto something regarding power on sequencing. I've been beginning to suspect that certain components like the DCS100 need some time (seconds?) to boot up and get "working" first, in particular before I re-insert the battery in the DT402 throttle. Since everything worked fine 4 times today (I've started keeping detailed notes of my procedures), and each time today I powered up the throttle last, so far, no issues.
A possible fix might be to use a power sequencer such as the Furman M-8S. Kind of pricey for this application, but maybe there's something less expensive.
http://www.fullcompass.com/prod/254847-Furman-M-8S
My audio system (as well as others that may have a number of high current/high output amplfiers) usually have to power some components on/off sequentially that draw a lot of current at turn on or have a lot of back EMF when turned off. Obviously, with DCC this is not a current draw/load issue, but more like a time required to boot up issue before the "next" component can reliably "read" information/data from the first component, and so on.
This may be a clue. I ran my last layout with my Zephyr as the command station and a DB150 powering the track. I had everything hooked to an X10 appliance module (so I didn;t ahve to crawl under the layotu to turn on a power strip) so that everythign turned on at the same time. Sometimes, I got some odd beeps from the DB150, other times it just all turned on. Either way, I never had any issues, just the beeps on startup. WHat I think was happening is that the two units weren't powering up at the same time - to humans they were, but milliseconds are milliseconds and 5 milliseconds to the little microcontrollers inside the command station and booster is like a lifetime. SO sometimes, the Zephyr would win, and the Loconet would be up before the bosoter accessed it - no beeps. other times, the booster started first and beeped because it was running as a booster and there was no command station on the network. As a test I tried turning off the DB150's power supply so that when I hit the X10 button only the Zephyr powered up. Then I turned on the DB150. No beeps.
Problem is, there's no real way to kee the UR92 from powering up until the DCS100 stabilizes - if you pull the PS14, the UR92 will try to run from power over the Loconet cable (and may work - if there is nothing else plugged in and the cable between the two isn't too long - but do not operate this way, the UR92 (and UR91) really need the external power to work properly). It may very well be a similar race condition (this is what it's called in circuit design - when two parts of the circuit 'race' each other for an action to occur and the design allows for either one to happen firts) where if the UR92 'wins' it is a little flakey at first ebcause it doesn;t see the Loconet, bt if the DCS100 'wins', the UR92 starts normally.
You can test this by unplugging both the Loconet cable and the PS14 and then turning on the DCS100 and only after it is on for a few seconds, plug in the Loconet cable and PS14 to start up the UR92.
The only way to make this automatic would eb to make up a special Loconet cable to the US92 which leaves off the outermost two wires (leaving the 4 center ones) - this give the US92 the Loconet signal and ground wires without the Railsync lines which is where it grabs power. But before cutting cables, give it a try manually and see what happens. If it works more consistently that way, report those findings to Digitrax support. It's not always a physical change that resolves a race condition, a firmware change int he UR92 may be able to take the porper action, if this turns out to be a consistent behavior. I also suggest checking what firmware and radio software version are in both the DT402 and the UR92. The late Bob H from forum had problems with his large layout, many operator Duplex radio system, and he got all sorts fo advice - including rewiring it since he originally used Cat 5 UTP cable instead of flat wire to make all his Loconet cables. When that didn;t work he got rather scientific and methodical with his operators and they reported everything, including Loconet traffic traces, to Digitrax and the end result was a firmware upgrade after which he had few if any problems even with many operators.
I'm kind of inclined to agree with what Ed/gmpullman said.
Today I turned the system on, and then off, four times. The first two times were within a few minutes of each other (less than 600 seconds). The other two times had an hour or more betwen turn on/off. In all four instances I DID NOT have to push the Loco button to get fully operational. The loco addresses were displayed each time. All I had to do was turn on power to the system (the PS2012 & PS14 are plugged into a power strip so I just turn on the power strip to turn on power to everthing else) turn a throttle knob (either L or R) and the loco on that throttle would start up. Same with the other throttle.
This is completely the opposite of what happened last night where I had to select loco address of one or the other loco by pressing the Loco button and press Enter (or Loco again). It seems just one loco has to be re-selected to jump start both throttles *most* of the time. I haven't verified yet whether this is due to the component start up sequence, or something else (id: put the battery in the throttle first, then power up the DCS100, or reverse)
As for duplex reception, I've been able to get fairly far away - out of the train room, down the short hall, and into the music room on the other side of the house and still have wireless connectivity. On the other hand, there are locations at the side of the layout just 10' or less from the UR92 that have issues.
If you're getting frequent white LED flashes then either there is something else interfering on 2.4GHz, since unplugging your router didn't do anything, or there is a loss of power to the UR92. Do you have cordless phones? I have my wireless router and right next to it my SmartThings hub, both 2.4GHz, and neither device has an issue connecting to their respective client devices - they use vastly different channels. Digitrax Duplex can use channels that WiFi routers aren't supposed to use. You can also use the tool from Digitrax that uses the UR92 to scan the band to find the most unused channel, you need a computer and a Loconet interface.
You DO have a PS14 plugged in to the UR92, right? and a known good proper Loconet cable, not a phone cable (crossed) subbing because 'it shouldn't matter'? Also check the firmware and radio software versions in both the UR92 and the throttles - there have been several updates to both that address many of the issues people have. They are two seperate things - the UR92 system firmware and the radio module, which is a piece Digitrax just buys complete and integrates into their hardware. Both have had updates. Same with throttles.
Our club layout is modular and runs as a large donut, 28 feet across and the length varies depending on what the space is at a particular venue and how many people are available to help with setup and teardown. We've gone past 180 feet long now - in that configuration we do have a second UR92 down near the engine terminal at the far end, the primary radio receiver is on a pole about 1/4 of the way from the other end. Most people run trains from inside the donut hole, but people do go outside and walk around, and we hand off the throttle and let kids run the trains as well, mostly UT4D throttles - because some of the people can't even spell DCC. Outside of an occasional fat finger of a loco address (and then wondering why their train doesn't move when they crank the throttle wide open - luckily all storage tracks have power toggles so some other random train doesn;t suddenly take off) or a battery going dead, causing loss of control, there really aren't many problems, the duplex works great.
I suspect some source of interference, even if not from within your house. Not near an airport and any sort of radar installation, are you? The DigiGroupSetup utility will help scan all channels to find the best one to use.
Despite what may be seen on the Digitrax Yahoo group, there are plenty of people running Duplex with no problems. No one ever writes to say how good something works, they only write to complain about problems.
Something else to try - in the throttle setup you can assign a throttle ID, which Digitrax has always said is "not currently used by anything". Slot monitor in JMRI says different - the throttle ID is stored with the selected loco. With a unique ID, assuming it actually check it, it could lessen Steal occurences since theoretically the command staion knows you are re-aquiring on the same throttle and not a different one - but left and right knob are two different throttles so if you previously had the loco on the right knob and now try the left, you get Steal messages. Digitrax says this will do nothing, but something I thought to try. I don;t run radio yet since my previous layout was small enough to reach from one centrally located UP5, but I sometimes get Steal messages even though I only have one throttle I use all the time - but when I do, if I think about what I did the previous time I was running trains, I know WHY I am getting a Steal prompt.
Also - if you didn't follow the procedures to set up the Loconet ID on each UR92, installing more than one won;t give the desired results - if they are all on different IDs or Groups or channels, it will be as if you only have 1 operating as far as the throttle is concerned.
Arto Regardless, I have to press loco, reenter the loco address & press enter. At this point the throttle sometimes asks "Steal=Y?". There's nothing to steal, only one DT402D throttle in use. Even if the Steal=Y? message doesn't occur I still have to press Loco and select the loco address and press enter for both the L & R throttle to get the locos to respond to sound or speed.
I can sympathize with Arto.
I've had a Digitrax Super Chief, two DT400Rs and four UT4R throttles for 12 years and I was very satisfied with their operation. About a year ago I decided to make the Duplex plunge.
I regret doing that!
I sent the DT400s back to Digitrax for the upgrade and bought 2 UR92s. Beside the issues Arto is dealing with I'm very disappointed in the range of the throttles.
I bought a third UR92, mounted them up high, near the ceiling and tried both up side down and right side up (ground plane effect). Tried different channels. Still, I frequently get the white, blinking LED that indicates no signal. Often, the function commands go unresponded, i.e. no response from locomotive even though the function shows in the throttle display. I learned about the 2.4Ghz "donut hole" where I can be five feet away from the UR92 and can not get a signal. Digitrax claims the UR92s range to be "up to" 300 feet? I unplugged my network wireless router to be sure it wasn't interfering but that made no difference.
Selecting an address wirelessly is a 50-50 proposition so I just plug-in anyway like I used to with the DT400R. I sank almost $500 in the upgrade (I bought an additional UT4D, too).
Sometimes when I select LOCO, then press in a new address, which may take several attempts to finally get the numbers I want, then I press LOCO again it goes blank, then back to SEL LOCO. So I have to start over, then I also get the Steal? Y+/N- even though I'm re-selecting the same address.
Disabling the power-save r=ps mode on the throttles helps because once they would sleep it was nearly impossible to wake them up!.
Most days I can live with the glitches but sometimes it can really be frustrating!
I wish there had been more "user reviews" I could have read before (not) investing in the Duplex "upgrade".
Regards, Ed
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Arto Is there some sort of procedure that I have to follow for both shutting down and starting up the system so I don't encounter these problems. I really hate spending the first 10-15 minutes trying to get everything back to work.
Is there some sort of procedure that I have to follow for both shutting down and starting up the system so I don't encounter these problems. I really hate spending the first 10-15 minutes trying to get everything back to work.
I have an older Super Chief with a couple DT400's and use some JMRI/Engine Driver throttles, and I never have problems like these.
To power up, I first turn on power to the LocoNet (I have several UP5's that I supply external power to) and the PM42 via a power strip. Then I turn on power to the DCS100, and set the switch from Sleep to Run. The DT400's may or may not be plugged in during this part of my process as it makes no apparent difference.
Once the DCS100 is in "Run" for a short while (maybe 10-15 seconds) so the LocoNet is stable, I power up my DS64's. Then I use one of the DT400's to turn on track power, and select one or more locos on one or more throttles, and away I go!
Shutting down is the reverse: Dispatch all the locos, turn off power to the DS64's, set the DCS100 back to sleep, power it off, then power off the LocoNet and PM42.
Takes maybe a couple minutes to power up, and a couple minutes to shut down. Not a long time, and doing it in a logical, repeatable manner minimizes issues.
What do you mean when you say no throttle? Does the throttle power on? Does it control track power? If you hit loco and the existing address strats flashing and you press Loco again, do you now have control? If not, something may not be right. If you DO - then it's working. The only non-volatile memory in the throttle is that you access by doing the throttle setup to configure the throttle - taking out the battery wipes everything else out.
Well, it's back to ground ZERO. And I'm starting to get a little .......................
About 4 hours ago I turned track power off and pulled the throttle battery, leaving the DCS100 & UR92 powered. I put the battery back in the throttle, turn on track power.....................and NOTHING, except for the loco & car lights lighting up. No Sound. No THrottle. The loco addresses are displayed.
If I have to got through this nonsense everytime this junk is out of here. DC worked all the time without any issues. I'm spending more time trying to get things running everyday than I have time left to run the damn things.
While everything is now operating correctly again, the one thing I haven't done is turn off all power, I've only turned off track power and pulled the throttle battery. Hopefully when I turn everything off later tonight, everything won't have turned back to the previous issues.
Just for the record, IMO, the end user shouldn't have to follow some kind of specific power up/shut down procedure, so I hope that's not the case. Hopefully it's just my newbie ignorance not understanding the nuances yet.
I finally got to speak with someone from Digitrax (Nate) who was extremely patient and helpful.
We basically had to reset everything, including locos. He said to press Loco after entering the address instead of Enter. Basically an experience thing. He said he's found that pressing the Loco button seems to work more consistently. The other thing was waiting 15+ seconds after turning track power off before turning it back on so that the sound decoder has enough time to reset. Part of the issue may be because of the particular locomotives involved. He said "there are exceptions, like the Broadway Limited Paragon" and apparently mine fit the bill. So some extra "forced" reset & address programing (reset multiple times) to make sure everything was written over.
Randy, I'd say that's a BIG Yes ( messed somethign up with all teh program attempts)
Time for a rest. I think you must have messed somethign up with all teh program attempts. Plug the DT402 into the DCS100 directly, and change the switch on teh front to Ops. On the throttle, press Switch and enter 39 and press Close. Put the DCS100 switch back to Run, turn off all power, and wait a minute then turn it back on.
If you select a loco address, then select another by just pressing Loco and entering a new address, the first one is not released. Next time you select it, you will probably get the Steal message. If the first loco was not completely stopped, and all the functions were not turned off, it will be kept alive in the command station as still active. Trying to reselect an already active loco is what generate the Steal message.
The system does not remember previously selected locos on the throttle when you power off the throttle. The throttle does rememebr the last used loco so you can get to it by pressing Loco and the number should come up, then press Enter. But if you shut down the system and take the battery out of the throttle, anything active is lost. The command station remembers ebcause it has a battery backup in it, so if the loco was not properly dispatched (it's in the manual what to do when finished with a loco) it will be remembered int eh DCS100 memory as active - again this results in the Steal message. If the loco is set to speed 0 and all functions turned off, the command station will efectively clear it out after (default) 600 seconds, in which case selecting that address again will NOT result in a Steal message.
TheWizard some sound decoders wont make noise unless the engine is addressed. I believe that the digitrax throttles don't send any engine commands until the engine is addressed. Perhaps your issue is soply a combination of the two?
some sound decoders wont make noise unless the engine is addressed. I believe that the digitrax throttles don't send any engine commands until the engine is addressed. Perhaps your issue is soply a combination of the two?
I doubt it. As I get further & further into to this I experience more and more unexpected results, and things continue to get worse.
I tried re-programming the "lost" loco address. It won't program. After a few tries, and then a few tries using different Program modes everything was lost, no address that I had been using are shown or recognized. The DCS100 started beeping continuously. Now I can't even select a loco address to use or program.
I'm still having issues with this. Digitrax says the DT402D throttle does not have to be tethered (except during the initial installation).
The only thing consistent that I can find so far is that when I turn track power on, the loco & cars lights come on. The loco addresses are usually there (sometimes one or the other says flashing SEL). Regardless, I have to press loco, reenter the loco address & press enter. At this point the throttle sometimes asks "Steal=Y?". There's nothing to steal, only one DT402D throttle in use. Even if the Steal=Y? message doesn't occur I still have to press Loco and select the loco address and press enter for both the L & R throttle to get the locos to respond to sound or speed.
So far, Digitrax tech support has been pretty much useless on this issue. I'm beginning to think maybe the throttle is defective. Everything is brand new.
Paul3 I'm confused. When you say the "loco may have lost it's address entry", what does that mean? That the decoder lost it's address or that it's no longer in the throttle? The first is a decoder problem; the 2nd may be a command station issue, but do you expect the throttle to still be controlling the same address after you shut down both the command station and the throttle?When you say the loco has no sound, do you mean that it is silent upon layout start up? Or that the loco won't make sound no matter what? In either case, that sounds more like a decoder issue. Many modelers, including myself, prefer not having every sound engine start up upon layout power turning on. Most of us consider that a blessing. Paul A. Cutler III
I'm confused. When you say the "loco may have lost it's address entry", what does that mean? That the decoder lost it's address or that it's no longer in the throttle? The first is a decoder problem; the 2nd may be a command station issue, but do you expect the throttle to still be controlling the same address after you shut down both the command station and the throttle?When you say the loco has no sound, do you mean that it is silent upon layout start up? Or that the loco won't make sound no matter what? In either case, that sounds more like a decoder issue. Many modelers, including myself, prefer not having every sound engine start up upon layout power turning on. Most of us consider that a blessing.
Paul A. Cutler III
The throttle loses the address. Yes, I expect the command station and throttle to remember/retain the settings from the last session.
All the locos involved (BLI Blueline on one train & BLI Paragon on another) are still set to factory default with the exception that the two Paragon E6 have their address changed to the engine #). Yes, they will sometimes make no sound at startup. Track power is on, car & engine lights on, all sounds not functional. This is after I've put the engine address back in the throttle. Then I need to reboot everything again, or several times. Tethering the throttle seems to take me on a path to solve what ever issue I'm having but often still requires some additional playing around with the throttle. Locos don't move either. Then all of a sudden everything works.
I am a DCC newbie
selector Try putting the battery in properly and connecting its tether prior to powerup.
Try putting the battery in properly and connecting its tether prior to powerup.
Is tethering before powering up the command station/booster the required way of doing this? Honestly, I'm pretty sure I've always been powering up first, then turning on the throttle. Not always that way, but that seemed most logical since the command station would be fully operational and "broadcasting" already once the throttle is powered up. I have noticed that tethering the throttle "after the fact" seems to have something to do with correcting the situation but still requires some additional fiddling around.