All right, that's enough of this nastiness. I'm locking this thread. If you want to discuss DCC decoder issues in a civilized manner, start a new thread. I don't have the energy on a Monday morning to separate the wheat from the chaff in this one.
[lock]
--Steven Otte, Model Railroader senior associate editorsotte@kalmbach.com
When I began programming BLI sound locomotives back in the "early days" with my DCS200 several engines would not program properly, if at all.
I bought a PTB programming track booster:
https://www.litchfieldstation.com/xcart/product.php?productid=678829002
It has been working in the background, flawlessly, ever since.
DCC Specialties offers the PowerPax which is similar, but I'm not familiar with that product:
http://www.dccspecialties.com/products/powerpax.htm
The site specifically mentions that it "cures" Broadway Limited programming woes.
You may have to do your programming on the main using Ops mode programming if there is not enough current on the programming track to overcome the sound decoder's capacitors.
Just a thought, Ed
But what you aren't seeing is that at least with the direction control - the DC way was always a compromise. Most if not all pre-DCC command control systems worked the same way as DCC - forward is to the front of the engine. Period. Just like the real thing. That SD70ACe in the middle of a consist facing the rear is not running in 'forward' - it is running in reverse. Yes, with DC, since direction was based on track polarity, if you lift a loco off the track and put it back turned around 180 degrees - it will now run 'reverse' without touching the direction switch on the power pack - which was always pretty meaningless as an indicator and why most power packs never labeled the positions as forward and reverse, instead just having little arrows on the label.
As for the NMRA 8 pin plug, like I said, it IS marked where pin 1 is, but since there is no chance to put a key on there, it was carefully designed to not fail and damage anything if it got turned around. There are many considerations in the design, not too small to manage, but not so big as to not fit in many locos. There is no rule saying exactly where internally the socket is located - take a look at the various harnesses TCS offers for example. Some have the wires coming off the 8 pin plug on the pin 1 side, others come off on the pin 8 side, and others come off the top or bottom! All to make the wiring fit in various locos. It's an off the shelf electronic connector - the LAST thing we want in model railroading is more proprietary junk - the market is too small to support high volume specialty items, so they end up being low volume and expensive. Any time an existing standard can be adopted, something that's already produced in the 10's of thousands, 100's of thousands, or even millions, we benefit from a reduced cost.
It's also not the only connector option. The 9 pin linear JST connector IS keyed - because plugging it in backwards would damage things.
There's a way around it - the way I've used for most of my locos - remove the socket and any factory lighting board and hard wire it all, using decoders that have just wires coming out of them (cheaper anyway). It's 4 to 7 wire connections depending on the lights, at least for my first generation power with no such thing as a ditch light anywhere near. It costs less, it leaves more room inside the loco, and most of all I can see and verify that I have the red decoder wire to the right side rail pickups and so forth - no guessing or trying to follow the traces on some random factory board, or just hoping they got everything right (hint: sometimes they don't, and it has been bad enough to fry a decoder. DCC Ready is just a marketing term, not a standard).
--Randy
Then there's the whole issue of Blueline - they didn;t make those all that long for a reason. What's amazing is that you're having less trouble with those than with the Pargons. I already had DCC by the time Blueline locos came out, so not only did they not make anything I wanted, I also did not need a loco to do sound on DC. The thing is, ANY loco with more than one decoder can be a serious pain when it comes to programming. This is where most people end up having issues. So you have that going for you.
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Stevert Arto And as far as "it was designed that way on purpose", that's a lame excuse. IT SHOULD NOT WORK AT ALL, and the decoder SHOULD NOT BE DAMAGED, if the decoder orientation is wrong, IF this junk were designed properly in the first place. You just proved my point. When I said "it was designed that way on purpose", I was stating a fact, not making an excuse. Randy has confirmed that, but if you don't believe us, check the NMRA's S-9.1.1 standard. I'll even provide the link: S-9.1.1 However, instead of just accepting that fact, you again proceeded to tell us how YOU think it SHOULD work.
Arto And as far as "it was designed that way on purpose", that's a lame excuse. IT SHOULD NOT WORK AT ALL, and the decoder SHOULD NOT BE DAMAGED, if the decoder orientation is wrong, IF this junk were designed properly in the first place.
And as far as "it was designed that way on purpose", that's a lame excuse. IT SHOULD NOT WORK AT ALL, and the decoder SHOULD NOT BE DAMAGED, if the decoder orientation is wrong, IF this junk were designed properly in the first place.
You just proved my point.
When I said "it was designed that way on purpose", I was stating a fact, not making an excuse. Randy has confirmed that, but if you don't believe us, check the NMRA's S-9.1.1 standard. I'll even provide the link: S-9.1.1
However, instead of just accepting that fact, you again proceeded to tell us how YOU think it SHOULD work.
Shut up Steve. I didn't prove anything. I don't need your condescending remarks.
Just because something is designed that way on purpose doesn't make it right (the GM ignition switch debacle comes to mind). Fortunately this isn't something that will kill anyone. The bad news is, since it doesn't, it won't be changed.
As far as the decoder being installed in the wrong orientation by yours truely, there are three locos involved. All the same manufacturer, same product line, similar manufacturing dates. I put the decorder in the third unit (SD40), from what I could tell, was the same orientation as the other two (C-30).
This is my first pass thru the DCC world. I am computer literate. I've written, and customized software. And I'm really, really good at finding bugs that were overlooked by the developers. I know good software when I see it. It doesn't need tech support. Just look at all the same issues people are asking about, over and over on this Forum. This stuff is not plug and play unless you have a really small, simple setup. I don't. It's all new to me. Yes, I'll have to "un-learn" some things, just like when I started using CADD in the mid 80's.
When I observe inconsistent results and the only remaining consistency is inconsistency, something is wrong, and it's not me. Confused because of inconsistencies, yes. But at this point it is absolutely not something I am doing wrong. There are failures here, possible multiple. When the same proceedures yield different results over time it becomes difficult to perform any sort of systems analysis, especially if this is something new to you.
I apologize if my remarks seem rather blunt. But there's a reason so many people still stick with DC. And this is one of them.
I've gone through the default settings/address reprogramming several more times on the A unit. I've tried address different than 14. Same results. The only address the A unit seems to work (now) is default address 3. I say "now" because this has been what appears to be a slowly deteriorating situation (probably decorder) because BLI tech support on the phone walked me thru testing and reprogamming both units, first back to default, then to address 14, and everything worked for about a day (shut down the system & started backup 6 times with no issues, then it started acting funky again). I called BLI tech support back again & they agreed it could be a decoder issue. I previously had a similar issue (slowing down, brake sound, resume speed) using this loco pair with DC, not at first, but after about 6 months. If I remember correctly the A unit was the culprit because I remember taking it back to the dealer for testing, and as I said before, they couldn't simulate the same problem on their short test track so I had them do a factory reset (since I had no means to do that at the time). It worked fine after that. Because of circumstances that I won't bore you with, I couldn't use the layout for 6 months. Fast Forward to DCC implementation (four weeks ago). Like I said, the first week or so was sort of a revelation (there's no going back). And then I started having issues. eventually the same slowing down, brake sounds, resume speed problem started occuring with DCC. Now it appears that I can't use that loco on any other address except 3. Changing it to another address results in no response or unexpected response.
The units in question are now well out of warranty but BLI has agreed to replace both decoders at no charge. So I guess I'll just have to wait until next week and see what happens with new decoder installed.
Not everything is polarized. Or keyed. Even things that are supposed to be often are not. The object of the design is, if it can;t be polarized or keyed, to make sure no harm comes if it is put in backwards. Which is exactly how the NMRA 8 pin plug was designed. It's a little 8 pin header, those kind of plugs are common. There's a mark on the board, or there should be, near the socket pin 1 to indicate such, just like on any DIP IC chip. But you can;t prevent that plug (or the IC chip) from being plugged in backwards. The NMRA plug has the advantage in that nothing fries if it is plugged in backwards. I really think you need to step back, relax, stop messing with things, maybe read a few articles on DCC or maybe better just do some other activity not realted to model railroading - your frustration is probably causing as many problems as anything and then it just self-amplifies as you accidently hit the wrong button and then something ELSE doesn't work as expected. Before you start throwing locos against the wall.
Based on the programming behavior of the E6 A unit, it probably has a faulty decoder. If the B unit can accept programming and behave normally, there's no reason the A unit should not also program. But if it works perfectly on address 3 - try something other than 14. I know in the end you want them both to be the same, but try something other than a 2 digit address. Try making it 1234 and see what happens. If it fails on any address other than teh default - I still say decoder problem. If it works on other addresses but not 14 - still could be a decoder problem, there have been cases where specific address don;t work due to 1 bit being messed up in the decoder, so addresses that rely on that specific bit don't work right, but addresses that don't need that bit to represent the number work just fine.
Wrong Steve. Read my EDIT above.
I am NOT thinking DCC should work like DC. That's why I finally got it. I rebuilt/upgraded my layout to the highest and finest standards, in preparation for DCC ( the original wiring was not up to the task) and have been purchasing some of the highest quality DCC locos in recent years in preparation for this. Everything worked fine for the first week (or less) and I thought "there's no looking back." Eveything has been downhill since.
[Edited by admin]
Arto This EXACTLY what I'm talking about. A decoder SHOULD NOT be able to be plugged in "backwards", and still work. Virtually all other kinds of electrical/electronics plugs have an orientation key/shape so that it cannot be inserted in the wrong orientation. And so it should be here too. Bad Design/Engineering!!
This EXACTLY what I'm talking about.
A decoder SHOULD NOT be able to be plugged in "backwards", and still work. Virtually all other kinds of electrical/electronics plugs have an orientation key/shape so that it cannot be inserted in the wrong orientation. And so it should be here too. Bad Design/Engineering!!
It was actually designed that way on purpose. The way it's laid out makes it virtually impossible to burn out either the decoder or the loco if it's plugged in backwards. Plus, all the literature I've ever seen points out that the orange wire on the plug is pin 1, and the marked position on the socket is pin 1.
One example
Another example
Another one yet
Arto To a new DCC user like myself coming from 40 years in the DC world, if I see the loco I just installed a decorder in running the wrong direction, or opposite direction of the other two locos my first inclination is to just turn it around. I turn it around, and "voila", it works. Everything is good.
To a new DCC user like myself coming from 40 years in the DC world, if I see the loco I just installed a decorder in running the wrong direction, or opposite direction of the other two locos my first inclination is to just turn it around. I turn it around, and "voila", it works. Everything is good.
There's your problem. As has been pointed out several times in this thread, DCC does *not* work the same as DC.
But as long as you keep thinking DCC "should" work in some manner different than it does, and therefore keep trying to force DCC to work in that different manner, you'll continue to have issues.
Working with only the BLI Paragon2 E6 A&B now.
I reset the B unit to factory defaults with address 3. Everything works. I then programmed the address to 14. Throttle display says "good" and the coupler sound verifies. Sound and throttle work.
I do the same thing with the A unit. After setting to factory default (address 3) everything works. Program decoder to address 14, throttle display says good, no coupler sound verification and some of the PA/paging sounds come on (by themselves). Repeat. Same result except no PA sounds. Press Loco, select 14, Press Enter, engine sound is still on but no control (no horn/bell), no throttle. Select loco 3 on the R throttle, same result.
Someone please tell me I'm not crazy.
This is the most inconsistent "anything" I've come across in long, long time.
EDIT: Continuing the above process:
Program the A unit to factory defaults (address 3), everything works.
Reprogram the address back to 14, horn comes on continuously after pressing Enter, no throttle, turn off track power.
Turn track power back on, engine sound comes on, no horn or bell, no throttle. Make the other throttle (R) active using address 3, everything works.
In the meantime I dispatched the BLI E6 from both L & R throttle three times each. When I start it up again on the L throttle only, the sound comes (if Fn 6 was left on, if not, I press Fn 6, sound comes on), but the loco has no response. This is the same loco (along with the B unit) that more recently starts to slow down, brake sound, and resumes speed all on its own, and then the throttle looses speed control.
If I've dispateched the #14 address these locos use from both L & R throttle, both throttles should not be trying to address the loco at the same time, correct? Then why does it not move (sound works) next time I power up the throttle and select it on the L throttle?
I haven't changed CV29. The only thing that was changed were the addresses on the E6 A&B so I could run two DCC trains, one on each throttle, to keep things simple during the learning (sigh) stage.
If they run liek that then they have been programmed to do so or else one of them is wired backwards - you never know unless you actually checked polarity on DC track - my Proto 2000 Geeps all run backwards, for example - whent he right rail (referenced from the engineer faving forward) is positive, the loco should move in a forward direction per the NMRA standards. For mine, that's all short hood forward. If I plug in a DCC decoder - forward on the throttle moves them short hood first. For most railroads, my prototype included, most first gen power ran long hood forward. LL even has the little F on the frame indicating the front of the loco on the correct end, they just run the other way. So I have to program the decoders so that forward on the throttle moves it long hood first (actually I swap the motor wires, but that's another story)
There is no way, if the 3 Blueline locos are all wired the same, that one would move long hood first and the other two run short hood first, unless the decoders were programmed by adjusting CV29. Or you have one of the 8 pin plugs from the decoder plugged in backwards - that's effectively swapping the motor wires, connecting the decoder's orange wire to the motor grey and the decoder grey to the motor orange. DCC direction is absolute and has nothing to do with the way you place the loco on the rails - that's why if you take 2 locos, put them a few feet apart but facing each other, and run them both forward per the throttle indication, they will crash head-on. If they don;t, one is wired backwords or has CV29 adjusted so that 'forward' as commanded by the throttle is the opposite physiucal direction.
If the first thing you do after an OpSw 36 or OpSw 39 reset is run the E6's - nothing else, no programming, no running a different loco - do they still do the random stop? Oh yeah - don't Paragon 2 decoders have some sort of 'programmed operation' BS where they can be configured to automatically carry out certain operations? Maybe that has been set - I remember seeing something about this in the instructions but don't remember how you set or erase it - I think it uses some of the higher functions, like 20+ to put it in learn mode and then play back. But if they hebave properly if running them is the only thing you've done since the last reset - somehow in your process of selecting and switching between locos they are getting left selected. If only 1 of the 2 stops yet they have the same address - there's probably some sort of decoder problem.
If the Bluelines with decoders added are working fine and don't randomly stop or otherwise do strange things - then that more or less says you're doing things the right way and the system is working fine. But even there, because of the dual decoder setup, they can be dinicky to program so maybe the sounds don;t quite work as expected and it would not be the system.
rrinker Look at the definition for CV29 - you'll have to set one to run reverse if you want to use the same address for both locos and couple them back to back. I still say you've managed, since doing the reset on the DCS100, to get the loco #6 or whatever the address of thatone is selected on what the system thinks is 2 different throttles. The telltale would be - when the loco stops all by itself, if you have the throttle knob on a non-zero speed, if you just sit tight, touch NOTHING - will it suddenly start up again? If it does, it absolutely is selected on two throttles and they are fighting each other. --Randy
Look at the definition for CV29 - you'll have to set one to run reverse if you want to use the same address for both locos and couple them back to back.
I still say you've managed, since doing the reset on the DCS100, to get the loco #6 or whatever the address of thatone is selected on what the system thinks is 2 different throttles.
The telltale would be - when the loco stops all by itself, if you have the throttle knob on a non-zero speed, if you just sit tight, touch NOTHING - will it suddenly start up again? If it does, it absolutely is selected on two throttles and they are fighting each other.
If that's the case, then why do the 3 BLI Blueline locos all run together in the same direction? I have two C30 facing forward, and the SD40 facing backward, all 3 with brand new Digitrax DN146 decorders that I installed.
At this point it's entirely possible that the two E6 are on the same throttle. I've dispatched them from both L & R throttle but the results are the same.
Lake Just my story and my have nothing to do with the OP problem. I know that the newer system is some what different then mine, but I find that with my DT400R simplex system, I have to re-enter some engine numbers even though they show on the screen from last session. Other wise nothing. Then once entered they run fine. Other engines have no problem, just turn system on and they go as soon as I turn the knob. When starting up I just I just turn the power strip on and the whole system is powered up. When done I just turn the power strip off. Don't turn off track power or the command station. It never made any difference if I did. Just more work. I then remove throttle batteries before or after, seems to make no difference. I have had the system since 2007. Ken
Just my story and my have nothing to do with the OP problem. I know that the newer system is some what different then mine, but I find that with my DT400R simplex system, I have to re-enter some engine numbers even though they show on the screen from last session. Other wise nothing. Then once entered they run fine. Other engines have no problem, just turn system on and they go as soon as I turn the knob. When starting up I just I just turn the power strip on and the whole system is powered up. When done I just turn the power strip off. Don't turn off track power or the command station. It never made any difference if I did. Just more work. I then remove throttle batteries before or after, seems to make no difference. I have had the system since 2007. Ken
Thanks Ken. So far, I have gotten more consistent results by turning on the DCS100/UR92 first, then battery in throttle. But yes, it seems some locos need to be selected, and in the case of the Broadway Limited E6 A&B, they *sometimes* also need Fn 6 pressed to initiate engine sound ramp up so that I can access the locos. Since all the locos I've been using/learning with have been from the same manufacturer, the only difference being Blueline with Digitrax DN146 decoders that I installed, and a couple Paragon2 (in the interest of keeping is simple), as new user I am expecting consistent results. I am not getting much consistency except for the less expensive Blueline.
Arto!
You have my sympathies. You have every right to be totally frustrated. Wish I could help but I'm an NCE user.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Ken G Price My N-Scale Layout
Digitrax Super Empire Builder Radio System. South Valley Texas Railroad. SVTRR
N-Scale out west. 1996-1998 or so! UP, SP, Missouri Pacific, C&NW.
Look at the definition for CV29 - you'll have to set one to run reverse if you want to use the same address for both locos and couple them back to back. This isn't DC. Like Steve said, forward in DCC means to the front of the loco, regardless of which way it's facing on the track. Like Digitrax's slogan - run your trains, not your track. The only time the track has any polarity like DC is when you use address 00 to run the DC loco.
The stopping all by itself can;t be dirty track - it that work the case, it would stop dead with no sounds. The fact that it slows down with a brake squeal means it is receiving a DCC command to stop. I still say you've managed, since doing the reset on the DCS100, to get the loco #6 or whatever the address of thatone is selected on what the system thinks is 2 different throttles. Or maybe your e-stop button is stuck on the throttle - the rubber button caps can sometimes get jammed in the label sticker on the case - that also causes the flashing power indicator. Check that button and make sure it's sitting at the same height as any other non-pressed button.
Or you have a neighbor who also has Digitrax and is using the same duplex channel and Loconet ID on his wireless system and just so happens to also have a loco address 6 - or he's staring in your basement window and messing with you.
The telltale would be - when the loco stops all by itself, if you have the throttle knob on a non-zero speed, if you just sit tight, touch NOTHING - will it suddenly start up again? If it does, it absolutely is selected on two throttles and they are fighting each other. A look with the slot monitor of JMRI would confirm that, or disprove it.
Stevert Arto Maybe I didn't make myself clear. Theses two centepede locos are supposed to run back to back (two A units with drawbar). This the first time I've run them on DCC. I haven't changed their default address so both are set to address 3. They run in opposite directions. The saga continues. Anybody want a good price on a lot of HO send me an email. I about to cut up the layout, use the proceeds to fund finishing the basement. With DCC, forward really is forward, regardless of the orientation of the loco on the track. So if you turn one around to have them run back to back, well, one of them has to be told to run in reverse.
Arto Maybe I didn't make myself clear. Theses two centepede locos are supposed to run back to back (two A units with drawbar). This the first time I've run them on DCC. I haven't changed their default address so both are set to address 3. They run in opposite directions. The saga continues. Anybody want a good price on a lot of HO send me an email. I about to cut up the layout, use the proceeds to fund finishing the basement.
Maybe I didn't make myself clear. Theses two centepede locos are supposed to run back to back (two A units with drawbar). This the first time I've run them on DCC. I haven't changed their default address so both are set to address 3. They run in opposite directions.
The saga continues.
Anybody want a good price on a lot of HO send me an email. I about to cut up the layout, use the proceeds to fund finishing the basement.
That's all fine and good. And that's what I thought was supposed to happen.
If that is so please explain why the 3 BLI Blueline locos I've been running together with brand new Digitrax DN146 decorders, two C30's facing forward, and one SD40 running backward, all 3 still on default address 3, all run in the same direction together.
BigDaddy Arto I am sorry for all your difficulties. As a DCC wannabee you are scaring the heck out of us. It does sound like you need an exorcism for your digitrax.
Arto I am sorry for all your difficulties. As a DCC wannabee you are scaring the heck out of us. It does sound like you need an exorcism for your digitrax.
I think the exorcism might be a good idea.
I just tried a pair of Broadway Limited Paragon 2 Centepedes. They run OK. EXECPT........
DRUM ROLL PLEASE.............................
They run in opposite directions. I've ran these on DC with no issues. I don't see anything in the manual about changing the default direction, but there's a lot of everything imaginable that can be changed that I couldn't care less about.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
I switched the loco to a Broadway Limited Paragon 2 T1 (using default address 3, this loco has only breifly been run once since I got DCC 4 weeks ago)
It took about 20 seconds and the sound turned off by itself. Loco keeps running. Sound comes back on. Then other sounds come on that I didn't select like bell.
So far only analog DC and the 3 Broadway limited Blueline with new DN146 decoders is working trouble free.
Phoebe Vet I haven't been following this thread closely. Have we eliminated dirty track and wheels?
I haven't been following this thread closely. Have we eliminated dirty track and wheels?
A B S O L U T E L Y
Just for the record, the layout was recently rebuilt. All new track & turnouts. Track & wheels were just cleaned, especially the track (ACT 2002). All new & upgraded wiring, 10awg stranded/twisted bus, 18 awg feeders, every track section joint soldered, minimum 5 pair/block (10 awg equivalent), all track joints soldered. Feeders to bus soldered. Digital level used for grade. Level track is flat within .005". It's all top notch. I didn't spare any expense or time in the rebuild.
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Well, just gave it a test run. Everything was left on except for pulling the throttle battery. Turned track power back on, reinserted throttle battery, press Loco, select loco, press 6 (engine sound ramp up), sound comes on, horn & bell work, throttle her up.
The train gets no more than 1/4 around the layout, brake sound comes on by its own, train slown down almost to a stop on its own and then resumes speed. Speed control lost again. Bell & horn still work. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
This now seems to be happening with increasing frequency.
BLI is going to send me two new decoders.
Running 2 locos on the track and one misses the direction change command even though the both have the same address is a decoder issue, more than likely. It's POSSIBLE there is a track wiring issue, but pretty much zero chance of that being a system problem. If the system was failing to send the DCC command, neither loco would reverse.
DO you have any other decodered locos? How do they perform? I'm beginning to be even happier I never spent the money to get another Reading T1 when they released the Paragon 2 version. My two older ones with ESU decoders run great.
If you don't want to dispatch locos when finished, just be prepared to get occasional STEAL message then. And if you fat finger the wrong address too many times, you will fill up the slots.
Should I tell you now that after an OpSw 39 reset, the system defaults to only 22 slots, not 120? There are some other settings under the OpSw settings for the DCS100 that might be useful to change from the defaults as well.
Speaking of computers - get yourself a Locobuffer USB or a PR3 and two pieces of free software - JMRI and Loconet Checker (if you have Windows - Loconet Checker is Windows only. JMRI runs on everything). Both will let you monitor the command station slots so you can see active locos, and you can also set those OpSw values.
There is also a document on the Digitrax Yahoo group that explains how the whole slot thing works - it should make it clearer why you should dispatch when finished running a given loco.
The Tech Support Dept link Ed posted - looks like the same procedure of OpSw 36/39 resets to me. How old is you edition of the manual? Check the version on the Digitrax web site, some of the errors were fixed after a bunch of people brought it up and the downloadable version may be newer than what came in your box.
So, now that I've got everything working again after OpSw36 reset, resetting the locos in question back to factory default, and resetting the address back to what I want, who wants to bet how long this will last?
Randy, I guess that's one of the things I don't like ~ having to dispatch locos before turning off power. I'm the only user. There are 2 trains (3 at most) (right now) each running on their own mainline. There's way too much sequence proceedural stuff required. To me, this is like going back to my Apple II (circa 1980). It's 2016. Hell, even the new 4K "smart" TV figures stuff out on its own with push of ONE button.