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Is it absolutely necessary to fill the gaps when isolating frogs?

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Posted by carl425 on Wednesday, January 27, 2016 9:37 PM

hon30critter
I got the angle drive for my Dremel yesterday. I'm kicking myself for not getting one before.

I'm glad to hear you find it as useful as I did. It's like the Dremel version of putting your pinky on the surface to steady your paintbrush.

 

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Posted by hon30critter on Wednesday, January 27, 2016 9:29 PM

Carl:

I got the angle drive for my Dremel yesterday. I'm kicking myself for not getting one before.

What is it that they say about having the right tools.....?

Thanks again for the suggestion.

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by hon30critter on Wednesday, January 27, 2016 9:27 PM

Randy:

I got the jewellers saw today and it is worth every penny. Blade changes and tensioning are are quick and easy. I gapped eight turnouts in about 10 minutes. The kerf is verf fine.

Thanks again for the suggestion.

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by hon30critter on Sunday, January 24, 2016 9:53 PM

Carl:

Thanks for the suggestion. I just ordered one, and I even got it for a decent price right here in Canada!

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by carl425 on Sunday, January 24, 2016 9:44 PM

hon30critter
I am having trouble holding the Dremel tool steady which is a direct result of having somewhat shaky hands.

I have the same problem.  I found that the right angle attachment helped me.  With it, I'm able to anchor the heel of my hand on the surface of the layout and rock the blade down onto the rail.

I have the right to remain silent.  By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.

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Posted by hon30critter on Sunday, January 24, 2016 8:58 PM

jd:

When you mentioned diamond saw blades for cutting gaps I realized that I had some cheap Chinese blades that I had bought a while ago. I gave one a try and it cut fairly quickly but the kerf wasn't quite as narrow as I would like. It was just a bit smaller than what I have been able to do with the reinforced fibre blade. I believe that part of the problem is that I am having trouble holding the Dremel tool steady which is a direct result of having somewhat shaky hands.

I have also managed to take a couple of bites out of the stock rails with both the diamond and fibre blades, again as a result of not being able to properly control the Dremel.

Bottom line is that I have decided to wait for the jeweller's saw to arrive before cutting any more gaps.

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by carl425 on Saturday, January 23, 2016 9:28 PM

mlehman
Nice skinny slot, but I am leery of those toothy teeth when cutting NS rail. Seems like it might snag as it starts the cut, whereas the fine-toothed ones tend to not?

I don't think those are teeth.  I believe they are there to keep the blade from overheating. It also looks to me like they rotate the wrong way for them to be teeth.

OTOH, I've been doing some testing and it seems that the gap really doesn't need to be all that skinny.  I've been rolling a car across a 1/8" gap cut across the track at a 45 degree angle and not seeing any derailments.

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Posted by selector on Saturday, January 23, 2016 5:32 PM

mlehman
 
carl425
These look interesting. Anybody tried them? They say the kerf is only .3mm.

 

Carl,

Nice skinny slot, but I am leery of those toothy teeth when cutting NS rail. Seems like it might snag as it starts the cut, whereas the fine-toothed ones tend to not?

 

I would strongly advise against using toothed disks on metal.

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Posted by JDberlin on Saturday, January 23, 2016 4:32 PM

We use diamond saw blades in a Proxxon/Dremil tool to cut the gaps at the club.

Others prefer the ceramic blades on their home layouts because they are so much cheaper. All the blades are much less than diamond jeweler saws?

jd/berlin

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Posted by mlehman on Saturday, January 23, 2016 11:39 AM

carl425
These look interesting. Anybody tried them? They say the kerf is only .3mm.

Carl,

Nice skinny slot, but I am leery of those toothy teeth when cutting NS rail. Seems like it might snag as it starts the cut, whereas the fine-toothed ones tend to not?

Mike Lehman

Urbana, IL

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Posted by hon30critter on Friday, January 22, 2016 9:57 PM

Ed:

I just picked up a jeweller's v-slot from England for a very good price. Looks like it will be very useful.

Thanks

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by hon30critter on Friday, January 22, 2016 9:09 PM

Brent:

Sorry, after what it has cost to buy flight tickets, rent a car, and pay for accommodation we won't be able to afford to eat!

Ed:

I'll look up the jeweller's V slot to see if I can find one in Canada. The $10.00 US item from MicroMark will be about $35.00 Cdn or more by the time I get it once you add in the exchange and shipping. Even shipping within Canada is way more expensive than it is inside the US. There I go whining about the Canadian dollar again.

Thanks for the suggestion. I should be able to make one with the saw if I can find the right clamp.

Dave

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Posted by BATMAN on Friday, January 22, 2016 5:38 PM

hon30critter
Besides, its peanuts compared to what I just spent booking a two week trip to British Columbia in July.

Ya, but we're worth every penny.PirateLaugh  Spend lot's while you're here........Please.

Brent

"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."

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Posted by 7j43k on Friday, January 22, 2016 5:15 PM

Dave,

 

There's one more thing you should get to go with your jeweler's saw:

 

 

"jewelers v-slot"

 

 

I speak from experience.  They are VERY handy.  And inexpensive.

 

Micromark has one for $10:

 

http://www.micromark.com/V-Block-and-Clamp,6724.html

 

 

Ed

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Posted by hon30critter on Friday, January 22, 2016 4:58 PM

Randy:

I looked at the Zona one but decided to go upscale partly because of the quick release blade and partly because of Fast Track's endorsement of the Knew saw. I can see lots of other uses for the saw as well. For example, when I get around to building more brass critters the jeweller's saw will handle the thicker brass frame pieces better than a razor saw will, and it will let me cut curves and notches that the razor saw won't.

By the way, just for comparison, the Zona saw with a package of spare blades would have cost me about $60.00 to the door.

Ah heck, its only money! Besides, its peanuts compared to what I just spent booking a two week trip to British Columbia in July.

Regards

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by rrinker on Friday, January 22, 2016 4:47 PM

 Ouch! $140? I'm sure I paid nowhere near that. They must have switched to a fancier brand - that's not what mine is.

 Just found my order from back in 2009. Mine is a Zona, it was $16.95 USD. I guess I didn;t order it with my jig, this is like a year or so after that, I order extra PC ties, the Tiebreaker jig, jeweler's saw, pack of blades, some track gauges, and a tube of pliobond plus their applicator tips. That whole order including shipping was under $70.

 OK, also took a look at Fast Tracks - I see they have both, that Know is a really fancy pants one. Looks high quality so it should last you forever. They do still have the Zona one - I've had no problem with it, and it's a fraction of the price. I didn't pay attention when I ordered it, the saw came with a pack of extra blades, so I bought another pack. I probably have enough blades for a lifetime now.

                                    --Randy


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

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Posted by 7j43k on Friday, January 22, 2016 4:15 PM

hon30critter

Hi again Ed:

I clamped the turnout in my pivot head vise and it did make the job easier, but it still took me  a fair amount of time to make the two cuts. I definetly like the narrower gaps and I don't see a need to fill them on the turnouts.

Randy:

I just bit the bullet and ordered the 'Knew' jeweller's saw from Fast Tracks. $140.00 Cdn with tax and shipping! Ouch! Oh well, I have promised myself that I would replace my poorer quality tools with good ones so here's a start.

Hopefully the jeweller's saw will speed up the cuts.

Dave

 

 

Dave,

 

"need to fill"?  Well, no, unless you do.  Need to.  "Later".  I see the epoxy as insurance--only necessary when you need it.

 

Be sure and get plenty of blades for the jeweller's saw--they break real easy and they're pretty cheap.  Note that they come with a choice of tooth count. 

 

The kerf on my razor saw is .015".  Or .38 mm.  Should anyone need to know.

 

 

Ed

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Posted by carl425 on Friday, January 22, 2016 3:50 PM

These look interesting. Anybody tried them? They say the kerf is only .3mm.

 

http://www.amazon.com/3pc-Diamond-Tipped-Serrated-Blades/dp/B00I9L9562/ref=cm_wl_huc_item

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Posted by Onewolf on Friday, January 22, 2016 3:02 PM

I use my light saber to cut gaps. 

Whistling

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Posted by hon30critter on Friday, January 22, 2016 2:18 PM

Hi again Ed:

I clamped the turnout in my pivot head vise and it did make the job easier, but it still took me  a fair amount of time to make the two cuts. I definetly like the narrower gaps and I don't see a need to fill them on the turnouts.

Randy:

I just bit the bullet and ordered the 'Knew' jeweller's saw from Fast Tracks. $140.00 Cdn with tax and shipping! Ouch! Oh well, I have promised myself that I would replace my poorer quality tools with good ones so here's a start.

Hopefully the jeweller's saw will speed up the cuts.

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by hon30critter on Friday, January 22, 2016 1:31 PM

Thanks Randy.

I'll give Fast Tracks a look.

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by rrinker on Friday, January 22, 2016 1:24 PM

 OK, different gaps. The Code 83 ones are like the new Code 100 ones - the gap is already there, I just have to cut the jumper on the bottom.

 A jewler's saw as recommended by Fast Tracks is the bee's knees when it comes to making small gaps. Much narrower kerf than a razor saw. And you cna unstring it like a hacksaw to get access to interior places. There are thin cutoff wheels for Dremel but they are usually small diameter and thus hard to get in withotu makign a diagonal cut, plus they are quite fragile - a little pressure fore and aft and they shatter (this is why you need eye protection as a minimum - those little shards go flying of at 30,000 rpm and can do some damage). The bigger diameter reinforced ones don't shatter as easy and can get in to the rail without coming in at an angle, but they are also rather thick and leave a thick gap.

 Might be easiest to order from Fast Tracks if you want one - no issue with customs and fees, since they are a Canadian company after all. I got one when I ordered a template and complete kit of tools.

                   --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by hon30critter on Friday, January 22, 2016 1:04 PM

Hi Ed:

I guess I'm just not patient enough. It might help if I was able to clamp the turnout down somehow. I'll see what I can come up with.

Thanks

Dave

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Posted by 7j43k on Friday, January 22, 2016 12:39 PM

Dave,

 

Well, there's forever and forever.  For me, it certainly wasn't long enough for me to start looking for other methods.  I just timed myself for cutting ONE rail of Walthers code 83: 65 seconds, including the "hangups". And my saw is definitely not new.  

 

I will NEVER go back to using a Dremel for this task--not after what happened the last time I used it.  With the razor saw, I just go nice and gentle, especially when starting the cut.

 

 

 

Ed

 

 

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Posted by BATMAN on Friday, January 22, 2016 12:29 PM

I cut gaps with the DremeI and have found that nothing else is required except on occasion a short pass with the file on a sharp top edge. A friend of mine who is far more advance than me in the electrial complexity of a layout uses hot glue from a glue gun to fill the gaps. He quickly cuts with an exacto knife or files the glue to match the rail profile and dabs brown paint on it. This eliminates any speed bumps that may occur. Having tried the method myself I found it works great after a little practice.Laugh

Brent

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Posted by hon30critter on Friday, January 22, 2016 12:12 PM

Ed:

I tried my razor saw but it seemed to take forever to cut through the rails. Maybe its time for a new saw although it seems to work fine for cutting other metals.

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by hon30critter on Friday, January 22, 2016 12:08 PM

Hi Randy:

The gaps I am cutting are for the purpose of isolating the frog so it can be powered. They have to be cut between the frog and the point rails. If the gaps are in the diverging rails there will be a dead short if the turnout is thrown the wrong way when power is being fed to the frog. At least, that's how my wee brain understands it, and that is where Allan Gartner suggests the cuts be made in his DCC blog.

Here is a picture of one of the newer Peco code 100 turnouts that had the closure rails gapped at the factory. To isolate the frog, all that had to be done was to cut the jumpers that were welded to the bottoms of the rails. I'm cutting my gaps in the same place. The rails seem to be quite well attached after I cut the gaps:

Here is the bottom of the turnout. You can see the stubs of the jumpers that were cut.

I discovered something when I looked at the blown up picture of the top of the turnout. The rails do not line up where the lower gap is. I will have to take a closer look at all my turnouts. Some filing would seem to be in order.

Peco makes no mention of filling the gaps, but their gaps are quite narrow.

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by hon30critter on Friday, January 22, 2016 11:38 AM

Hi Rich:

You may be right. Just use the reinforced cutting wheel and fill the gaps. I will give the thinner discs a try to see what happens but if I end up with pieces of discs flying everywhere I'll forget that nonsense.

As for the rails going out of alignment, filling the gap won't cure that. I tried to bend the offending rail but all I succeeded in doing was dislodging it from the ties. I got the rails lined up and properly gauged but I had to glue the loose rail in place. It wouldn't pop back into the tie plates. I hope that CA will hold it in place or I have just wasted a turnout.

Interestingly, the piece of the closure rail that ended up out of gauge was not the piece that I soldered the point rail jumpers to. The part that went out of line was never heated so I can't blame melted ties.

Dave

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Posted by 7j43k on Friday, January 22, 2016 10:18 AM

I use a razor saw to cut rail gaps.  With a little bit of care, nothing bad will happen.  As opposed to the Dremel cut-off method.  And the gap is quite petite.

 

I fill the gap, 'cause it's "the right thing to do".  I fully admit it MAY not be necessary.  But, on the other hand, there is no reason NOT to fill the gap.

 

I use epoxy.  I put a little dab on top of the gap, and it runs down inside.  And then it sets.  I file off any excess.

 

 

 

Ed

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