Call me lazy if you want, but I'm asking why it is necessary to fill rail gaps in turnouts?
As many of you are aware, I'm in the process of powering the frogs in my Peco code 100 Electrofrog turnouts. The common practise is to fill the rail gaps after they have been cut. I can see the necessity for filling gaps in flex track so the sliding track doesn't close the gap. However, the rails in the turnouts seem to be pretty well anchored in place. Why fill the gaps? If the polarity is correct there won't be any difference from the frog to the closure rails. Even if the polarity was not correct, filling the gap wouldn't change anything. Peco makes no mention of filling gaps if you are isolating the frogs.
So, what say ye?
Thanks
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Dave,
ME doesn't fill the gaps in their HOn3 turnouts. They seem to work just fine.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
The gaps should be filled for several reasons: to avoid unintended closure, to avoid derailments, just to mention two.
Rich
Alton Junction
I find installing the insulation in gaps a bit of a challenge. The difficulty is that I haven't yet found a glue that will attach a piece of styrene to the rail ends sufficiently well to stand up to the stresses of cutting and filing the styrene to match the rail profile. I've had greatest success when the styrene is glued to the roadbed and protrudes up through the rail gap, but that obviously depends on the roadbed material (I have ABS plastic roadbed for a weather-proof outdoor setup). Has anybody tried these http://www.handlaidtrack.com/StopGap-Rail-Gap-Fillers-p/sg.htm (which look like they are made of wood instead of styrene)?
It depends on the gaps....how wide, if they have rough edges, and even where they are.
Fast Tracks turnouts with the multiple copper clad ties must have the frog fully isolated for reasons that those who understand their construction will realize. Tim Warris shows him using a jeweler's saw with a super-fine filamental hairlike blade. It cuts a very fine, barely perceptible gap in four places once they are all completed. I have several longish #8's cut like that because I went ahead and paid through the nose for such a saw from the States. I have never had the two adjacent rail ends close for any reason, and never had a short. I have used several of them on two layouts now, and will use them a third time very soon.
Assuming you don't mangle the rail ends, or twist or torsion the rails when you make the cuts, there is almost no chance you'll see a marked rise in derailments due to the gaps. If you do, or if you are worred about it, simply take a small flat needle file and gently file the tire bearing surfaces edges and do the same for the inside flange faces at those gaps. I think it's likely to not be needed, but it couldn't hurt to swipe the gaps with something to make them that much smoother.
In places where I have elected to use a fine cut-off disk in a hobby power tool, the gaps are larger, and unfortunately I have snagged and lifted the ends when I attempt to withdraw the spinning disk from the fully cut gap. I'm getting older and my grip isn't as steady as it used to be. Cutting a commercial turnout like a Peco Insulfrog to creat gaps near the frog is un-necessary, but if you wanted to isolate an Electrofrog version just 'cuz, I would clamp it and sever the frog in the same four places using the same jeweler's coping-style saw.
Speaking of gaps, I have some older pre-DCC friendly Walthers (Shinohara) code 83 #8 curved turnouts. I was testing continuity after wiring drops in my yard and found that (as some have commented), the bronze wiper under the points do not reliably transmit routed power to the rail in the divergent part of the turnout. Ok thats beside the point - apparently using a relay to send power to the correct rail is the long standing solution to that issue. Moving along to the cut rail part...
One suggestion I've read is to not install insulated rail joiners on the diverging rails, but instead use standard rail joiners and cut the rail just past the metal frog, which othewise causes a short when a train enters the turnout when it is thrown the wrong way. So when cutting the rail, some have suggested using a Dremel Cut off wheel but I've some experience with those and don't see that going too well - melting ties with the heat, getting an angled wierd looking cut, a wide cut and maybe a nasty accident if not careful. About the only other way I can think of is the old razor saw method.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
riogrande5761One suggestion I've read is to not install insulated rail joiners on the diverging rails, but instead use standard rail joiners and cut the rail just past the metal frog,
If it is otherwise not necessary to cut the diverging rail, I would just use an insulated joiner to keep the diverging and connecting rail in alignment. I'm not sure I see a virtue to closing an existing gap and then cutting another.
I rarely fill these gaps. They're often useful to handle expansion and contraction as well as electrical isolation. If you have one that closes, try coating the ends of the rails with something like CA for insulation.
Rob Spangler
Everyone:
Thanks for your answers.
So far I have used a dremel saw with a reinforced cut-off wheel. It cuts quite well but the gap is larger than I would like it to be. I will give the thinner discs a try but my hands are not all that steady so breakage will likely be a problem. Eye protection for sure! Someone recently suggested putting two discs in the mandrill at the same time to reduce breakage. That makes sense but the cut will then be almost as wide as with the reinforced disc. I'll give it a try and report back.
One thing I did notice on one of the Peco Electrofrog code 100 medium turnouts was that after I cut the gap the rails went out of alignment. That turned into a bit of a challenge to fix.
Regards
hon30critter Everyone: Thanks for your answers. So far I have used a dremel saw with a reinforced cut-off wheel. It cuts quite well but the gap is larger than I would like it to be. I will give the thinner discs a try but my hands are not all that steady so breakage will likely be a problem. Eye protection for sure! Someone recently suggested putting two discs in the mandrill at the same time to reduce breakage. That makes sense but the cut will then be almost as wide as with the reinforced disc. I'll give it a try and report back. One thing I did notice on one of the Peco Electrofrog code 100 medium turnouts was that after I cut the gap the rails went out of alignment. That turned into a bit of a challenge to fix. Regards Dave
One other point - the gap doesn't have to be within the turnout dimensions. You can gap those diverging rails anywhere, as long as they are gapped. The whole section from frog to gap will be powered by whatever you use to power the frog, so you don;t want to put the gaps 10 feet down the track, but if you leave 6 inches of rail past the frog so it has support and then cut gaps, it will be fine. I'm looking at some Peco Code 83 Electrofrogs I have on my desk and there are only 4 ties with support past the frog - the 5th one has the tie hollowed out underneath so the rail joiner slides on without popping the rail off the spikes. I'm not so sure I'd want to cut in there, too close to the frog and the frog has little support, too close to the end and there's nothing to hold the little cut bit of rail in place. I was planning to put together a small switching layout and just use the Peco insulated joiners - they are very tiny and clear, nearly invisible when in place (at least the Code 83 ones are). On the 'real' layout I think I'll just gap a few inches down the adjoining flex track and solder the short piece of rail to the turnout. That also means the frog feed doesn't have to use the existing attachment point under the turnout - anywhere prior to the gap will feed the frog area. If there's no room to leave space before cutting, I'll probably just use the Peco insulated joiners.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I use a razor saw to cut rail gaps. With a little bit of care, nothing bad will happen. As opposed to the Dremel cut-off method. And the gap is quite petite.
I fill the gap, 'cause it's "the right thing to do". I fully admit it MAY not be necessary. But, on the other hand, there is no reason NOT to fill the gap.
I use epoxy. I put a little dab on top of the gap, and it runs down inside. And then it sets. I file off any excess.
Ed
Hi Rich:
You may be right. Just use the reinforced cutting wheel and fill the gaps. I will give the thinner discs a try to see what happens but if I end up with pieces of discs flying everywhere I'll forget that nonsense.
As for the rails going out of alignment, filling the gap won't cure that. I tried to bend the offending rail but all I succeeded in doing was dislodging it from the ties. I got the rails lined up and properly gauged but I had to glue the loose rail in place. It wouldn't pop back into the tie plates. I hope that CA will hold it in place or I have just wasted a turnout.
Interestingly, the piece of the closure rail that ended up out of gauge was not the piece that I soldered the point rail jumpers to. The part that went out of line was never heated so I can't blame melted ties.
Hi Randy:
The gaps I am cutting are for the purpose of isolating the frog so it can be powered. They have to be cut between the frog and the point rails. If the gaps are in the diverging rails there will be a dead short if the turnout is thrown the wrong way when power is being fed to the frog. At least, that's how my wee brain understands it, and that is where Allan Gartner suggests the cuts be made in his DCC blog.
Here is a picture of one of the newer Peco code 100 turnouts that had the closure rails gapped at the factory. To isolate the frog, all that had to be done was to cut the jumpers that were welded to the bottoms of the rails. I'm cutting my gaps in the same place. The rails seem to be quite well attached after I cut the gaps:
Here is the bottom of the turnout. You can see the stubs of the jumpers that were cut.
I discovered something when I looked at the blown up picture of the top of the turnout. The rails do not line up where the lower gap is. I will have to take a closer look at all my turnouts. Some filing would seem to be in order.
Peco makes no mention of filling the gaps, but their gaps are quite narrow.
Ed:
I tried my razor saw but it seemed to take forever to cut through the rails. Maybe its time for a new saw although it seems to work fine for cutting other metals.
I cut gaps with the DremeI and have found that nothing else is required except on occasion a short pass with the file on a sharp top edge. A friend of mine who is far more advance than me in the electrial complexity of a layout uses hot glue from a glue gun to fill the gaps. He quickly cuts with an exacto knife or files the glue to match the rail profile and dabs brown paint on it. This eliminates any speed bumps that may occur. Having tried the method myself I found it works great after a little practice.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Well, there's forever and forever. For me, it certainly wasn't long enough for me to start looking for other methods. I just timed myself for cutting ONE rail of Walthers code 83: 65 seconds, including the "hangups". And my saw is definitely not new.
I will NEVER go back to using a Dremel for this task--not after what happened the last time I used it. With the razor saw, I just go nice and gentle, especially when starting the cut.
Hi Ed:
I guess I'm just not patient enough. It might help if I was able to clamp the turnout down somehow. I'll see what I can come up with.
OK, different gaps. The Code 83 ones are like the new Code 100 ones - the gap is already there, I just have to cut the jumper on the bottom.
A jewler's saw as recommended by Fast Tracks is the bee's knees when it comes to making small gaps. Much narrower kerf than a razor saw. And you cna unstring it like a hacksaw to get access to interior places. There are thin cutoff wheels for Dremel but they are usually small diameter and thus hard to get in withotu makign a diagonal cut, plus they are quite fragile - a little pressure fore and aft and they shatter (this is why you need eye protection as a minimum - those little shards go flying of at 30,000 rpm and can do some damage). The bigger diameter reinforced ones don't shatter as easy and can get in to the rail without coming in at an angle, but they are also rather thick and leave a thick gap.
Might be easiest to order from Fast Tracks if you want one - no issue with customs and fees, since they are a Canadian company after all. I got one when I ordered a template and complete kit of tools.
Thanks Randy.
I'll give Fast Tracks a look.
Hi again Ed:
I clamped the turnout in my pivot head vise and it did make the job easier, but it still took me a fair amount of time to make the two cuts. I definetly like the narrower gaps and I don't see a need to fill them on the turnouts.
Randy:
I just bit the bullet and ordered the 'Knew' jeweller's saw from Fast Tracks. $140.00 Cdn with tax and shipping! Ouch! Oh well, I have promised myself that I would replace my poorer quality tools with good ones so here's a start.
Hopefully the jeweller's saw will speed up the cuts.
I use my light saber to cut gaps.
Modeling an HO gauge freelance version of the Union Pacific Oregon Short Line and the Utah Railway around 1957 in a world where Pirates from the Great Salt Lake founded Ogden, UT.
- Photo album of layout construction -
These look interesting. Anybody tried them? They say the kerf is only .3mm.
http://www.amazon.com/3pc-Diamond-Tipped-Serrated-Blades/dp/B00I9L9562/ref=cm_wl_huc_item
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
hon30critter Hi again Ed: I clamped the turnout in my pivot head vise and it did make the job easier, but it still took me a fair amount of time to make the two cuts. I definetly like the narrower gaps and I don't see a need to fill them on the turnouts. Randy: I just bit the bullet and ordered the 'Knew' jeweller's saw from Fast Tracks. $140.00 Cdn with tax and shipping! Ouch! Oh well, I have promised myself that I would replace my poorer quality tools with good ones so here's a start. Hopefully the jeweller's saw will speed up the cuts. Dave
"need to fill"? Well, no, unless you do. Need to. "Later". I see the epoxy as insurance--only necessary when you need it.
Be sure and get plenty of blades for the jeweller's saw--they break real easy and they're pretty cheap. Note that they come with a choice of tooth count.
The kerf on my razor saw is .015". Or .38 mm. Should anyone need to know.
Ouch! $140? I'm sure I paid nowhere near that. They must have switched to a fancier brand - that's not what mine is.
Just found my order from back in 2009. Mine is a Zona, it was $16.95 USD. I guess I didn;t order it with my jig, this is like a year or so after that, I order extra PC ties, the Tiebreaker jig, jeweler's saw, pack of blades, some track gauges, and a tube of pliobond plus their applicator tips. That whole order including shipping was under $70.
OK, also took a look at Fast Tracks - I see they have both, that Know is a really fancy pants one. Looks high quality so it should last you forever. They do still have the Zona one - I've had no problem with it, and it's a fraction of the price. I didn't pay attention when I ordered it, the saw came with a pack of extra blades, so I bought another pack. I probably have enough blades for a lifetime now.
I looked at the Zona one but decided to go upscale partly because of the quick release blade and partly because of Fast Track's endorsement of the Knew saw. I can see lots of other uses for the saw as well. For example, when I get around to building more brass critters the jeweller's saw will handle the thicker brass frame pieces better than a razor saw will, and it will let me cut curves and notches that the razor saw won't.
By the way, just for comparison, the Zona saw with a package of spare blades would have cost me about $60.00 to the door.
Ah heck, its only money! Besides, its peanuts compared to what I just spent booking a two week trip to British Columbia in July.
There's one more thing you should get to go with your jeweler's saw:
"jewelers v-slot"
I speak from experience. They are VERY handy. And inexpensive.
Micromark has one for $10:
http://www.micromark.com/V-Block-and-Clamp,6724.html
hon30critterBesides, its peanuts compared to what I just spent booking a two week trip to British Columbia in July.
Ya, but we're worth every penny. Spend lot's while you're here........Please.
Brent:
Sorry, after what it has cost to buy flight tickets, rent a car, and pay for accommodation we won't be able to afford to eat!
I'll look up the jeweller's V slot to see if I can find one in Canada. The $10.00 US item from MicroMark will be about $35.00 Cdn or more by the time I get it once you add in the exchange and shipping. Even shipping within Canada is way more expensive than it is inside the US. There I go whining about the Canadian dollar again.
Thanks for the suggestion. I should be able to make one with the saw if I can find the right clamp.
I just picked up a jeweller's v-slot from England for a very good price. Looks like it will be very useful.