I picked up a LL P2k S1 today at a train show. Has anyone done a DCC install on one of these using LEDs? Did you pull the light tube or point the LED up at it? Where you happy with the results? I have not checked the current draw on this one yet, but I was planning on installing a TCS MC2 decoder unless the current draw is too high.
I just put 3mm LEDs where the incandescent lights were. Might have to file down some of the rim at the base of the LED to get it to fit in the same place. No worries, you can file or sand away any part of the LED case as long as you don't disturb the internals.
Don't forget to pull the motor and insulate the bottom brush contact from the frame, and runa new orange wire. These locos are NOT DCC Ready, as built, if the loco derails and one of the wheels contacts the frame, it will blow the decoder.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Randy,
Thanks for the tip on the motor isolation. Thought I might have to do something with it but I would have left it alone if it passed continuity check with light board removed. The back up light on mine is mounted to the chassis horizontally infront of the cab and the light tube turns at 90 degrees and drops in above it. Would this reduce the light coming out of the back up light due to LEDs being more directional than light bulbs, or is there enough light reflected inside to not matter in this case?
Thanks again
Andrew
Edit: Just checked stall current =0.5A, so the MC2 should be a go.
Hi Andrew:
I have done several P2K switchers. Mine did not have light tubes. The bulbs are simply mounted right behind the headlight lenses. I use epoxy to glue either 3mm or 0603 LEDs in place of the bulbs. Getting the LED right behind the headlight makes it quite bright but if you are off a bit the headlight will be much dimmer.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
If I can ask a question about isolating the lower motor connection, none of my 4 P2K switchers seemed to need it. I just took them all apart again to see if I had missed something but I could not find an electrical path between either of the motor brushes and the frame. All the motors have insulated leads coming off each brush. Am I still missing something here? I know the problem exists with Athearn.
Thanks
ahh, the infamous orange wire.
I have two Life Like S3 switchers, and three Life Like S1 switchers. The problem is that the orange wire is grounded on the lower brush, and a metal clip from the lower brush touched the metal frame. That in itself does not cause a short. But, in a derailment when the wheels make contact with both rails, the decoder will blow. I had it happen on both S3 switchers before I got educated the hard way.
The solution is to insulate the clip so that it does not make direct contact with the frame. Another solution is to relocate the orange wire to prevent this short from occurring in the event of a derailment. Look for the metal clip on your Life Like S1 or S3. Perhaps, some releases do not have the metal clip?
As far as the lights are concerned, I replaced the incandescents with LEDs and had no problem with the fitting or the intensity of the lighting. That said, the rear light is definitely dimmer than the front head light, but that is because of the design of the Life Like S-series switchers.
Rich
Alton Junction
Hi Rich:
I still am not quite sure of whether or not I have a potential short but I'm pretty sure I don't. I put one of my continuity testor leads on to the brush holder on the bottom of the motor and I put the other lead on the frame. No connection. I did the same thing for the brush contact on the top of the motor. No connection. I can't see any 'clips' attached to the lower motor connection that might make contact with the frame either. There are two small solder pads on the motor, one for each brush, and they do not touch anything. The motor wires are soldered to those pads.
Quite honestly I think I am being paranoid here. I have installed quite a few decoders and I have made sure that the motor leads were isolated every time. So far no smoke but because I don't have a layout I haven't suffered any derailments either.
If I'm wrong, please tell me before I blow a decoder.
I dug up my old thread on this issue. It is worth a full read.
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/203796.aspx?page=1
Here is what Tony's Trains has to say about the problem.
http://tonysdcc.com/tonystips/2001/120601.htm
And this from Digitrax.
http://www.digitrax.com/tsd/KB992/life-like-proto-2000-s-1-may-damage-dcc/
OK Rich:
Thank you for posting those links.
What I have deduced is that the P2K S1 is built differently from the other P2K S series switchers. In my usual blind manner I was assuming that all P2K switchers had the same problem. Apparently they don't.
Much fuss over nothing!
Thanks for your support.
hon30critter OK Rich: Thank you for posting those links. What I have deduced is that the P2K S1 is built differently from the other P2K S series switchers. In my usual blind manner I was assuming that all P2K switchers had the same problem. Apparently they don't. Much fuss over nothing! Thanks for your support. Dave
What is the Proto Item Number on your box?
Yes, it's very obvious, if the loco os built liek the S1, there is a tab screwed in witht he bottom brush holder that is bent out so it puts pressure on the frame when the motor is screwed in. Sort of like the tabs on the bottom clip of a Athearn Blue Box motor. Plus with the motor out, the part of the frame under the motor brush holder is not blackened so said tab can make contact. On mine, I cut the tab off except for a tiny straight bit of it, which I use to solder the wire on, and then put a piece of Kapton tape over it before putting the motor back in.
I don't think the SWs have this same problem, but I don't have any of them. Just the Alco S1. I'd suspect the S3 has the same issue. Atlas made S2's and S4's, the one shown a while ago in MR on installing sound had the same problem as the P2K ones, heck it even looked like the same motor and all, although supposedly the newer Atlas ones do not have this issue.
Yep, the Proto S3 had the same problem as the S1. That is where my problems began and ended.
I have a P2k S3 as well, but i think it was a special Walthers run (Portland Terminal 1101). There are 8 plasitic nubs that stick up from the top of the trucks toward the middle (2 on each end of each truck) that prevent wheel contact with the metal frame. Once I finish the S1 I will take the S3 appart and investigate this orange wire problem. On my S1 the orange wire is attached to the metal frame using a ring terminal (i think thats what it is called) and a screw, directly under the forward light bulb. Thanks for the links to the other threads.
Yup, the orange wire screwed to thr frame is the give away. The other end of that circuit is the bottom motor brush, which contacts the frame.
So as a note, I had to run a 2-56 tap through the motor mount hole. I suspect that the coating (shiny black that Rich mentioned in his thread) ended up in the motor mount hole on my locomotive. Also the piece of metal to which the motor magnets are attached, is that engergized? Should I re-install the top screw or use a nylon one there as well?
BMMECNYC So as a note, I had to run a 2-56 tap through the motor mount hole. I suspect that the coating (shiny black that Rich mentioned in his thread) ended up in the motor mount hole on my locomotive. Also the piece of metal to which the motor magnets are attached, is that engergized? Should I re-install the top screw or use a nylon one there as well?
I installed LEDs in one of these. I removed the light tube and mounted the LEDs right behind the headlight lenses. The result was a headlight that actually illuminated the track ahead of the engine, which was my goal. Just having a tiny bright spot that comes on when you turn on the lights seemed very lame to me.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
richhotrain BMMECNYC So as a note, I had to run a 2-56 tap through the motor mount hole. I suspect that the coating (shiny black that Rich mentioned in his thread) ended up in the motor mount hole on my locomotive. Also the piece of metal to which the motor magnets are attached, is that engergized? Should I re-install the top screw or use a nylon one there as well? As I recall the chassis and the motor mounts, I don't think that a nylon screw is necessary. The loco is DCC Ready in that sense. The problem has always been the grounding wire on the brush. Rich
As I recall the chassis and the motor mounts, I don't think that a nylon screw is necessary. The loco is DCC Ready in that sense. The problem has always been the grounding wire on the brush.
I believe you are correct. I removed the bottom brush holder from the motor (to attach the lead for the orange wire), it threads into plastic and makes no contact with the metal piece that holds the magnets for the motor. I do not understand the recommendation to install those in your S3 topic about using a nylon screw. The only issue I can find is the metal clip that makes contact with the frame.
Edit: In any case I decided to put nylon screws in both top and bottom motor mount holes, and the magnet holder is isolated from the frame on top and bottom by kapton tape.
MisterBeasley I installed LEDs in one of these. I removed the light tube and mounted the LEDs right behind the headlight lenses. The result was a headlight that actually illuminated the track ahead of the engine, which was my goal. Just having a tiny bright spot that comes on when you turn on the lights seemed very lame to me.
I was wondering about that. Thanks for the info.
The early caution in favor of using a nylon screw was later disproven when the metal screws caused no problem.
Should I use Sunny White or Golden White LEDs for first gen diesels?
The Atlas S2 that has this same motor issue does need a nylon screw. The motor in the Proto S1 though, the metal parts of the motor do not contact the brush holders in the plastic end cap. So no nylon screw needed for P2K.
I use golden white in all my first gen locos. Most first gen diesels, as built, had light houses that had a light bulb inside, much like steam loco headlights. Second gen diesles started having sealed beam headlights, and older ones were often retrofitted - sunny white LEDs match those better. My stuff is all first gen diesel, and I model the mid 50's, so golden white is what I use (mostly Miniatronics Yelo-Glo).
For early diesel you'll want the golden-white LED.
It's been 10+ years since I converted my P2K S1 to DCC. I can't recollect how I connected an LED to the headlight. If the light tube is the same OD as the head of the 3mm LED, you can utilize it "as is" using a small section of 1/8" black heat shrink (1/4-3/8" long) around both to hold them together. I found that the heat shrink helps center the LED around the light tube so that more light passes through it and out the headlight/number board lenses.
Even with the longevity of LEDs, I'm not a fan of gluing anything to the headlight lens. If and when an LED does burn out (or you accidentally kill it prematurely during a decoder install), you can easily remove the old LED and install a new one. Elmer's glue would be the exception because it can be removed by moistening it with a little water. That said, I would only use it as a last resort; preferring mechanical methods (e.g. heat shrink, Kapton tape) for securing things.
On one install there was no light tube so I had to counterbore a 0.116" (#32) hole in the back of the headlight lens. IIRC, it was just long enough and snug enough to hold it in place. Even if it hadn't a little Elmers glue would have done the trick.
Although I've never tried SMT LEDs for a lighting install, I can definitely see their advantage. In that case I would have to resort to using a water-based glue like Elmers for securing them in place.
Tom
[Edit: To add to Randy's comment above, Richmond Controls has "golden-white" (which is very similar to the Miniatronics "yeloglo") and can be purchased from Ulrich Models. "Warm-white" is another description for the same type and can be purchased from Litchfield Station. Although their light warmth is very similar to one another when lit, the golden-whites have a very pronounced "orange" color to the LED lens:
If the color of the LED lens itself will be too noticeable when the LED is turned off, you may want to go with the other LEDs with clearer lenses.]
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I was under the impression that proto 2k were dcc ready &proto 1k wasn't
thomas81z I was under the impression that proto 2k were dcc ready &proto 1k wasn't
It is until it de-rails or you put it on the track with the wheels not on the rails, then it isn't and you get 14VAC to the motor output on the decoder.
"DCC Ready" is a completely meaningless term. The loco under discussion is a prime example. The box says DCC Ready, but it's not. The later runs of the P2K GP30, or whichever one had seperate lights for the number boards, is another one - those extra lights are not wired through the circuit board that controls the headlight and backup light, they are wired across the motor power leads. ALso not DCC ready despite the label.
In the meantime there are locos that do not say anything about DCC Ready, and in some cases may even predate DCC, that are super easy to install a decoder in. AN example of that is the Walthers (old Train Miniature shell, upgraded drive) FA.
I find it far easier to just remove factory DC lighting boards and wiring the decoder in. A good and easy loco will have wires from each truck for the track pickups, and wires from the motor for motor power.
rrinkerThe later runs of the P2K GP30, or whichever one had seperate lights for the number boards, is another one - those extra lights are not wired through the circuit board that controls the headlight and backup light, they are wired across the motor power leads. ALso not DCC ready despite the label.
Randy:
It was the GP 38-2 an otherwise nice loco. You can use the NMRA plug but you have to leave the number board lights disconnected. A better solution is yours - take out the factory light board and hard wire in a decoder.
Joe