BMMECNYC Starting my second LL S-1 today. Summary of what has been learned:
Starting my second LL S-1 today. Summary of what has been learned:
Rich
Alton Junction
Starting my second LL S-1 today. Summary of what has been learned: Nylon screws are not needed.
Test locomotive on DC before starting tear down to check for correct L/R pick up wiring, orange/gray wire on correct side of motor.
Remove motor from frame and flip over (corrects the incorrect LL wiring scheme), Solder orange wire to the newly exposed unwired clip (remove clip before soldering) CAUTION: small spring and motor brush under nut that holds clip, do not lose this.
Apply kapton tape to area around gray wire, bottom motor contact.
File out the notches that held the light bulbs in place, 3mm LEDs do not exactly fit in same location. Use golden white LEDs for 1st Gen Diesel Switchers.
TCS MC2 decoder fits well. Remove the 8pin plug entirely and hardwire, saves critical space when re-installing shell.
Replace couplers (plastic spring Kadee clones are what came on this).
First, test on DC track, then wire, test, then solder.
Yeah, I did my first S1 backwards too. My GP7's I deliberately wire backwards, because on my prototype they ran long hood forward. LL even has the F decal on the proper end, but they put the crew figures in and wire them to run short hood forward on DC.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
BMMECNYCdummy me did not check that the motor was properly wired
Dummy me, too! I remember doing a few Life-Likes assuming that the red wire to the motor was +
Nope, they used black + and red -
Simple enough to change through CVs but a pain just the same. Now I always check with a DC power supply.
Regards, Ed
I ended up hardwiring in to finish the install, dummy me did not check that the motor was properly wired, consequently I now need to use CVs to fix the headlights and motor being opposite....(I already put on shrink tubing).
Edit: Programmed CVs 49 and 50 to 32 (constant brightness).
Swapped the LEDs CV 29 to 35.
My Walther's H12-44 had each motor frame half connected to the brush. Needed Kapton tape and nylon screw to isolate the motor half from the bottom frame. Used a strip of 0.002 phosphor bronze to reach the brush cap on the bottom of the motor.
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
richhotrain BMMECNYC thomas81z Ohh ok thats good to know thanks richhotrain thomas81z So the S1 & S2 switchers have the motor ground problem but not the PA's & SD'S ??? The Proto 2000 S1 and S3 switchers have the problem, no other P2K loco to my knowledge. Rich Do not assume, just because someone else has not had a problem doesnt mean something could be lurking. The best advice is that you should always check for a path for short circuits before installing a decoder. No assumption on my part. As I did say, "no other P2K loco to my knowledge". The discussion of the infamous orange wire on the S1 and the S3 has taken place on more than one model railroad forum and on more than one web site, Tony's Trains Exchange, Digitrax, and Loy's Toys, just to name a few. According to informed sources, the problem began with the design of a short wheebase diesel locomotive. The lower motor brush is insulated from the motor frame, but the lower brush cap has a metal tab which is bent so as to contact the lower portion of the metal chassis. Life-Like did this to shortcut the need to solder a wire to the lower brush cap cap which would have required a path back up the PC board. Instead, the manufacturer installed a small metal lug under the upper frame mounting screw which is located under the front headlamp and then ran a wire to the PC board to complete the circuit from the lower brush through the frame. Life-Like subsequently acknowledged this design error and said that it was unique to the S1 and S3 switchers. On the longer wheelbase diesel locos, there was enough room to avoid taking this shortcut. Rich
BMMECNYC thomas81z Ohh ok thats good to know thanks richhotrain thomas81z So the S1 & S2 switchers have the motor ground problem but not the PA's & SD'S ??? The Proto 2000 S1 and S3 switchers have the problem, no other P2K loco to my knowledge. Rich Do not assume, just because someone else has not had a problem doesnt mean something could be lurking. The best advice is that you should always check for a path for short circuits before installing a decoder.
thomas81z Ohh ok thats good to know thanks richhotrain thomas81z So the S1 & S2 switchers have the motor ground problem but not the PA's & SD'S ??? The Proto 2000 S1 and S3 switchers have the problem, no other P2K loco to my knowledge. Rich
Ohh ok thats good to know thanks
richhotrain thomas81z So the S1 & S2 switchers have the motor ground problem but not the PA's & SD'S ??? The Proto 2000 S1 and S3 switchers have the problem, no other P2K loco to my knowledge. Rich
thomas81z So the S1 & S2 switchers have the motor ground problem but not the PA's & SD'S ???
So the S1 & S2 switchers have the motor ground problem but not the PA's & SD'S ???
The Proto 2000 S1 and S3 switchers have the problem, no other P2K loco to my knowledge.
Do not assume, just because someone else has not had a problem doesnt mean something could be lurking. The best advice is that you should always check for a path for short circuits before installing a decoder.
No assumption on my part. As I did say, "no other P2K loco to my knowledge".
The discussion of the infamous orange wire on the S1 and the S3 has taken place on more than one model railroad forum and on more than one web site, Tony's Trains Exchange, Digitrax, and Loy's Toys, just to name a few.
According to informed sources, the problem began with the design of a short wheebase diesel locomotive. The lower motor brush is insulated from the motor frame, but the lower brush cap has a metal tab which is bent so as to contact the lower portion of the metal chassis.
Life-Like did this to shortcut the need to solder a wire to the lower brush cap cap which would have required a path back up the PC board. Instead, the manufacturer installed a small metal lug under the upper frame mounting screw which is located under the front headlamp and then ran a wire to the PC board to complete the circuit from the lower brush through the frame.
Life-Like subsequently acknowledged this design error and said that it was unique to the S1 and S3 switchers. On the longer wheelbase diesel locos, there was enough room to avoid taking this shortcut.
Rich,
Wasnt really meant for you, more for thomas81z. I pulled the motors on my LL SD60s, while I did not find an athearn frame power supply clip, I did install kapton tape over the motor power clip on the top and bottom of the motor, to be sure the motor or the wire I had to resolder to the clip (shoddy solder job on the bottom clip/broken wire) didnt energize the frame, ever. Even though I only put in a $19 NCE decoder, I felt it was worth the piece of mind should I decide to add sound at a later date.
Edit: I should note that I bought these LL P2k SD60s on EBay and the seller did not have the original box and they had some detail parts, but not all applied. I did not know if the original owner had done modifications (IE rewire to run long hood end to end, et cetera), that is the reason I stripped these down to the bare chassis.
The old FA's, the ones witht he spinning fan drivien with a rubber band, are direct Athearn BB drive clones and I think the motor may indeed be connected to the frame. I have only one of these, in a still unbuilt MDC RS-3 kit, so I haven't messed with DCC in it yet. Other P2K locos I HAVE converted, besides the S-1, are the GP-7's, FA-2, SD-7, and E units. None of these had any issues (other than weird factory boards in the SD7) with motor isolation, be be warned there was a run of E units that has motors that draw somewhere north of 4 amps, so you'll want to check current draw at stall to avoid frying a typical HO decoder.
The old FA drive MIGHT just have the frame connected to a rail, not the motor, in which case it's fine as long as both motor brushes are isolated from the frame. Frame to rail is OK, not a problem, motor to frame is no good.
I knew it was one of those newer ones, too new for me to be buying any.
But if someone wanted me to install a decoder in theirs, I'd do my usual and remove the board and replace all incandescent bulbs with LEDs. As long as there is room, I use decoders with 9 pin connectors on them, so it's not like hard wiring means you have to cut and resolder allt he wires if the decoder should happen to fail. And with a 9 pin 'dummy plug' (like in newer Athearns that have both a 9 pin and 8 pin connector, also Digitrax used to sell them) you can remove the decoder and switch the loco to pure DC operation.
rrinkerThe later runs of the P2K GP30, or whichever one had seperate lights for the number boards, is another one - those extra lights are not wired through the circuit board that controls the headlight and backup light, they are wired across the motor power leads. ALso not DCC ready despite the label.
Randy:
It was the GP 38-2 an otherwise nice loco. You can use the NMRA plug but you have to leave the number board lights disconnected. A better solution is yours - take out the factory light board and hard wire in a decoder.
Joe
"DCC Ready" is a completely meaningless term. The loco under discussion is a prime example. The box says DCC Ready, but it's not. The later runs of the P2K GP30, or whichever one had seperate lights for the number boards, is another one - those extra lights are not wired through the circuit board that controls the headlight and backup light, they are wired across the motor power leads. ALso not DCC ready despite the label.
In the meantime there are locos that do not say anything about DCC Ready, and in some cases may even predate DCC, that are super easy to install a decoder in. AN example of that is the Walthers (old Train Miniature shell, upgraded drive) FA.
I find it far easier to just remove factory DC lighting boards and wiring the decoder in. A good and easy loco will have wires from each truck for the track pickups, and wires from the motor for motor power.
thomas81z I was under the impression that proto 2k were dcc ready &proto 1k wasn't
I was under the impression that proto 2k were dcc ready &proto 1k wasn't
It is until it de-rails or you put it on the track with the wheels not on the rails, then it isn't and you get 14VAC to the motor output on the decoder.
For early diesel you'll want the golden-white LED.
It's been 10+ years since I converted my P2K S1 to DCC. I can't recollect how I connected an LED to the headlight. If the light tube is the same OD as the head of the 3mm LED, you can utilize it "as is" using a small section of 1/8" black heat shrink (1/4-3/8" long) around both to hold them together. I found that the heat shrink helps center the LED around the light tube so that more light passes through it and out the headlight/number board lenses.
Even with the longevity of LEDs, I'm not a fan of gluing anything to the headlight lens. If and when an LED does burn out (or you accidentally kill it prematurely during a decoder install), you can easily remove the old LED and install a new one. Elmer's glue would be the exception because it can be removed by moistening it with a little water. That said, I would only use it as a last resort; preferring mechanical methods (e.g. heat shrink, Kapton tape) for securing things.
On one install there was no light tube so I had to counterbore a 0.116" (#32) hole in the back of the headlight lens. IIRC, it was just long enough and snug enough to hold it in place. Even if it hadn't a little Elmers glue would have done the trick.
Although I've never tried SMT LEDs for a lighting install, I can definitely see their advantage. In that case I would have to resort to using a water-based glue like Elmers for securing them in place.
Tom
[Edit: To add to Randy's comment above, Richmond Controls has "golden-white" (which is very similar to the Miniatronics "yeloglo") and can be purchased from Ulrich Models. "Warm-white" is another description for the same type and can be purchased from Litchfield Station. Although their light warmth is very similar to one another when lit, the golden-whites have a very pronounced "orange" color to the LED lens:
If the color of the LED lens itself will be too noticeable when the LED is turned off, you may want to go with the other LEDs with clearer lenses.]
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Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
The Atlas S2 that has this same motor issue does need a nylon screw. The motor in the Proto S1 though, the metal parts of the motor do not contact the brush holders in the plastic end cap. So no nylon screw needed for P2K.
I use golden white in all my first gen locos. Most first gen diesels, as built, had light houses that had a light bulb inside, much like steam loco headlights. Second gen diesles started having sealed beam headlights, and older ones were often retrofitted - sunny white LEDs match those better. My stuff is all first gen diesel, and I model the mid 50's, so golden white is what I use (mostly Miniatronics Yelo-Glo).
Should I use Sunny White or Golden White LEDs for first gen diesels?
The early caution in favor of using a nylon screw was later disproven when the metal screws caused no problem.
MisterBeasley I installed LEDs in one of these. I removed the light tube and mounted the LEDs right behind the headlight lenses. The result was a headlight that actually illuminated the track ahead of the engine, which was my goal. Just having a tiny bright spot that comes on when you turn on the lights seemed very lame to me.
I installed LEDs in one of these. I removed the light tube and mounted the LEDs right behind the headlight lenses. The result was a headlight that actually illuminated the track ahead of the engine, which was my goal. Just having a tiny bright spot that comes on when you turn on the lights seemed very lame to me.
I was wondering about that. Thanks for the info.
richhotrain BMMECNYC So as a note, I had to run a 2-56 tap through the motor mount hole. I suspect that the coating (shiny black that Rich mentioned in his thread) ended up in the motor mount hole on my locomotive. Also the piece of metal to which the motor magnets are attached, is that engergized? Should I re-install the top screw or use a nylon one there as well? As I recall the chassis and the motor mounts, I don't think that a nylon screw is necessary. The loco is DCC Ready in that sense. The problem has always been the grounding wire on the brush. Rich
BMMECNYC So as a note, I had to run a 2-56 tap through the motor mount hole. I suspect that the coating (shiny black that Rich mentioned in his thread) ended up in the motor mount hole on my locomotive. Also the piece of metal to which the motor magnets are attached, is that engergized? Should I re-install the top screw or use a nylon one there as well?
So as a note, I had to run a 2-56 tap through the motor mount hole. I suspect that the coating (shiny black that Rich mentioned in his thread) ended up in the motor mount hole on my locomotive. Also the piece of metal to which the motor magnets are attached, is that engergized? Should I re-install the top screw or use a nylon one there as well?
As I recall the chassis and the motor mounts, I don't think that a nylon screw is necessary. The loco is DCC Ready in that sense. The problem has always been the grounding wire on the brush.
I believe you are correct. I removed the bottom brush holder from the motor (to attach the lead for the orange wire), it threads into plastic and makes no contact with the metal piece that holds the magnets for the motor. I do not understand the recommendation to install those in your S3 topic about using a nylon screw. The only issue I can find is the metal clip that makes contact with the frame.
Edit: In any case I decided to put nylon screws in both top and bottom motor mount holes, and the magnet holder is isolated from the frame on top and bottom by kapton tape.
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