Bluerail has no released their spec's for their first module, 58mmx28mm (last dimenion is not stated but they got a pic, looks like 1/4"). They also say they will be coming out with a narrow board and if all goes well, an N scale version. Max volt 24 and 2amp max connections for dead rail and connection future expantion for sound onboard, 9 pin compatable. $75 price point.
see bluerailtrains.com
what do they mean by standard or DCC? By standard do they mean providing power by maintaining a full DC track voltage?
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
gregc see bluerailtrains.com what do they mean by standard or DCC? By standard do they mean providing power by maintaining a full DC track voltage?
Right in the FAQ page.
http://bluerailtrains.com/faq.cfm
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
The price has got to come down for me to buy in. Right now I'm spending $30-40 on a used loco and maybe $15 on a decoder. I know this is the future, but I'll wait until it gets better and cheaper.
Julian
Modeling Pre-WP merger UP (1974-81)
fieryturbo The price has got to come down for me to buy in. Right now I'm spending $30-40 on a used loco and maybe $15 on a decoder. I know this is the future, but I'll wait until it gets better and cheaper.
rrebell fieryturbo The price has got to come down for me to buy in. Right now I'm spending $30-40 on a used loco and maybe $15 on a decoder. I know this is the future, but I'll wait until it gets better and cheaper. But what did you pay for your system?
But what did you pay for your system?
I paid $120 for a DCC-equipped GP40, command station, lokmaus2, 4 cars, and a circle of 15" radius track, brand new.
A Bachmann set?
rrebell A Bachmann set?
Roco. I control it with Rocrail on my Mac and iThrottle on my iPhone & iPad.
i'm having a hard time understanding the market for this. (i'm not a gadget guy. I'm surrounded by enought tech at my job).
New stuff is usually either less expensive or does more. Does bluerail do anything more than a DCC decoder does? Does it work where DCC doesn't (e.g. really small space)?
If you already have DCC, would you want to convert your layout to bluerail?
if you have a DC layout, could you convert some of your locos to bluerail.
if you're starting a new layout and choose bluerail, you need some sort of power supply to the rails. I'm guessing you could use on old DC controller or you could use a wall wart. Is this the best situation for using blue rail.
is the main advantage the use of your phone to control your layout? What happens if you need to use the phone?
while it's pretty slick to have a bluetooth interface to your loco, i doubt that anything could be much simpler and inexpensive than the communication interface to a DCC decoder by inverting polarity of power.
for larger layouts, isn't the most expensive part of the system the decoders in each and every locomotive?
gregci'm having a hard time understanding the market for this.
Someone who doesn't want to plunk down three or four hundred dollars for a Digitrax base unit. Just get a cheap 12V power source, buy a decoder board for your loco, and use your cell phone (or buy a cheap Android one to use as a dedicated throttle.) It would be good for someone who is just starting out and doesn't want the hassles of DC or the expense of DCC.
Someone else mentioned the price has to come down. I don't see anything at their website about price.
Steve S
$75 for stand alone decoder, but the big selling point is the dead rail connections and it is DCC ready compatable. It can run on any layout too (DC layout has to be put at full throttle). Basicly it is the same idea as one put out by Crest many moons ago, but theirs was radio controled and the decoder was much larger and also it was way more expencive. At least their first endevor has all the bells and whistles or the built in connections for them. As far as DCC, I know people who have spent around $800 or more for their systems and that dose not count what they spent on decoders.
rrebell$75 for stand alone decoder
Yikes! If you've only got one or two locos it would be cost effective. But much more than that and you might as well go DCC. Hopefully some more players will join the competition and drive prices down.
Remember you can run this at the same time you run DCC but the promise of easy deadrail is what all the clamor is about. Before this you had to buy lots of separate parts and follow someones instructions to put it all together and hopefully you had the skills to do it right. Even for wireless plug and play alone, this is an upgrade. As far as the phone for the throttle, I expect stand alone throttles or some add to phone devise of which there are already some out there for other peoples stuff. The real problem with DCC is the sqeaky clean rails you need, even with keep alive's this can be an issue. With dead rail all you need is track, even rusty old track, or wood in the shape of track, plastic ? Also no more souldering to rails, as a hobby you might be able at some point to get rid of souldering altogether.
Yeah, I'm sorry, but trains running on batteries *really* sucks. I mentioned this to a friend who's also neck deep in tech, and he said "Then what, the battery runs out and you have to charge it? Lame."
Where is there going to be anywhere large enough to run a train, and no power? I don't understand the dead rail argument. It solves a problem nobody has.
I think the bluetooth control is neat, but that is separate from the uselessness of dead rail.
If you really operate your trains, then cleaning all the sidings esspecially in yards can be a real pain. With batteries, no cleaning. No sound interuptions (keep alives can only do so much). No wiring of track, no need for powered frogs. When I add up all the money I spent on a DC setup, I could do many an engine. You save money on wire (it was becoming a major expence untill the bottom fell out of the copper market), no transformers, I use 3 and just to $65 each at the cheapest place I know $100 retail, want walkaround, original retail on my system was around $300. Add the track cleaning cars (a couple hundred for me) and the supplys to go with. You see where I am going. I will not even go into all the fun of making everything work right or the problems of shorts, if there is a problem, you know instantly where the problem is.
rrebellWith batteries, no cleaning. ... When I add up all the money I spent on a DC setup, I could do many an engine.
How much were the batteries? Can you share some photos of your wireless battery installations in HO models? How many engines have you converted so far?
rrebellAs far as DCC, I know people who have spent around $800 or more for their systems and that dose not count what they spent on decoders.
One can buy wireless DCC starter sets and a number of decoders for much less than that at street price. Apples-to-apples comparisons are important.
One of the challenges with using Bluetooth to control model railroads in real situations relates to the propagation characteristics of that RF technology. Bluetooth actually comes in 3 classes and ranges vary substantially:Class 3 radios – have a range of up to 1 meter or 3 feetClass 2 radios – most commonly found in mobile devices – have a range of 10 meters or 33 feetClass 1 radios – used primarily in industrial use cases – have a range of 100 meters or 330 feet
I don’t see anything from Bluerail about the class of Bluetooth they are using in their own devices, but some, if not all, of the devices they suggest using for control are Class 2 (and possibly Class 3). So the effective range may be an issue.
Compounding this, humans are bags of water. (Yes, even though some seem like bags of hot gas).
Water is a severe attenuator of RF signals, especially when antennas are small and not oriented optimally (as would be the case in a decoder moving around in an engine on a layout). In a larger model railroad environment, with human bodies moving around in the aisles and the small antenna in the locomotive occasionally shielded by multiple humans from low-power transmitters, performance may be a concern.
In addition, the process of "pairing" Bluetooth devices in situations with a large number of locomotives and controlling devices could prove problematic. This is simple in DCC, as any decoder (or multi-unit consist) may be easily acquired by any controller. That was part of the design from the beginning and works well.
In contrast, Bluetooth technology (in general) is not really optimized for a number of different devices being controlled at various times by a number of different users (as might happen with an engine used on one train early in a session by one operator, then by another operator on a separate train later).
Bluerail does not seem to have explained how their technology will work in larger home or club layouts with many locos and operators, nor how multi-unit consists may be supported. They may have a plan in mind, but what's been described (so far, in fairness) seems more like a solution for one-loco trainsets.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
I see your concerns, the radio system I currently have is limited to 99 locos, more than I have. What I like about the new stuff is it is less than half the size and much more easy to convert to dead rail too. Don't expect many DCC people to go over but those that are DC might. The relistic range of the new system is 100' though I have seen tests of over 250'. The biggest club I have been part of was less than 100'.
rrebellWhat I like about the new stuff is it is less than half the size and much more easy to convert to dead rail too.
So you haven't actually done any battery conversions yet yourself, is that correct?
rrebellThe relistic range of the new system is 100' though I have seen tests of over 250'.
What system are you talking about? That can't be Bluerail (the topic of this thread). Testing any wireless system unobstructed outdoors with one controller and one receiver is much different from use in an indoor large layout environment with many bodies moving around, multiple controllers, multiple decoders, etc..
I think it might be helpful to be clear about the system being discussed rather than posting random unrelated statements.
rrebellThe biggest club I have been part of was less than 100'.
As I noted in my post, the issue isn't only raw distance, but also the effects of obstructions, attenuation, and antenna orientation.
An advantage of most DCC wireless systems is that the actual wireless transceiver (and/or repeaters) may be positioned on the ceiling, creating better signal strength to the controllers than would be true with Bluetooth on a hand-held phone. This also mitigates some of the RF propagation challenges of other humans in the aisles.
I am talking about the Train Engineer onboard receiver set up, no, no batteries yet, it runs on DC turned up or DCC. Adding batterys is the next step but now that this new system is comming out, already equiped for conversion to battery, it is much cheaper and a no brainer for battery conversion, remember that the batteries we are talking about will not be in common use for a few years to the average person. But our trains (if built right, lubed tuned properly) will accually run on a common 9volt battery, it has been done.
Is this the new DC vs DCC argument? In this case it's DCC vs BT. Seems that when any new system is announced, it ruffles some people's feathers. I recall seeing the same discussions taking place when Ring Engineering came out with their railpro system. I'd be willing to wager a donut that in the future, the same arguments will happen when some other system comes out. Bottom line, if you find that any new system is not for you, state your point (if you must) and leave it at that.
TONY
"If we never take the time, how can we ever have the time." - Merovingian (Matrix Reloaded)
jasperofzeal Is this the new DC vs DCC argument? In this case it's DCC vs BT. Seems that when any new system is announced, it ruffles some people's feathers. I recall seeing the same discussions taking place when Ring Engineering came out with their railpro system. I'd be willing to wager a donut that in the future, the same arguments will happen when some other system comes out. Bottom line, if you find that any new system is not for you, state your point (if you must) and leave it at that.
Last the real reason to go battery is the flustraiting experience I just had. Went to run engine in newly done yard, worked fine on area I just finished ballasting, then relized reason was I had not cleaned the track in the bad area, did that, still problems, switches this time as the contact wasn't as good as before and I hadn't yet installed the live frog wiring (Shinohara turnouts). Now these are easily fixable problems but with battery, they would be a non issue (also being coat weather now, very bulky, the cleaning was akward around the buildings etc., knocked down a few trees).
I guess I am one of the odd ones, I never clean my track - except after ballasting and painting. Once cleaned, it has stayed clean, even on sidings. I installed wires to every switch frog to power them, but never hooked them up because even my 44 tonner could crawl through and not stall.
No one smokes in the house, although that was not true a couple of layouts ago. My last one was in a carpeted and finished bedroom, but the one before was in a basement with bare cement walls and floors, and open joists above - no drop ceiling. After an initial track cleaning once the sides fo the rails were all painted, I never again used the Brite Boy. Occasionally used the vac to suck up construction dust but that was it. Very reliable operation. All the "horror stories" make me wonder if I should worry about using other than Atlas nickel silver track - whichw as all I have used on those layouts. All rolling stock has metal wheels, I do not run anything with plastic wheels.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Code 100 is less sensitive than code 70. Also, what do you run, I run small engines.
cuyamaI don’t see anything from Bluerail about the class of Bluetooth they are using
They say they're using Bluetooth Smart, which according to the spec chart at its Wiki page has a theoretical maximum distance of 100 meters (300').
They got videos on u-tube close to that range but they only say 100' do to the fact, things get in the way. Should be no problem for my 30' layout.
Steven SThey say they're using Bluetooth Smart, which according to the spec chart at its Wiki page has a theoretical maximum distance of 100 meters (300').
If the phones and tablets don't use the same technology, they will be the limiting factor, I think.
I'll bow out of this conversation now.
rrebell Code 100 is less sensitive than code 70. Also, what do you run, I run small engines.
I use code 83. Most of my locos are first gen diesels, GP7's and RS-3's. Since I never did finish the cement plan penninsula where the 44 tonner was supposed to live as a plant switcher, I occasionally ran it all over the layout as somethign different. On the layotu before that, the one in the unfinished basement, other equipment besides mine ran, in some cases older brass MU cars and steam locos that only picked up power on a couple of wheels on each side. No stalling problems. The one slightly less commonly done thing I do is that I have power feeds at every rail joiner. I solder sections of flex track for curves, but most of the rest is left unsoldered. Both the soldered and unsoldered joints all have power feeds. Turnouts, since they were also Atlas, had 3 sets of power feeds, one on each leg. I never did the full "gleaming" treatment (never applied any sort of metal polish to my rails) but I was for a long time using the metal handle of my heavy duty wire cutters to burnish the top of the rail somewhat. That could be the real trick, closing up the microscratches that allow dirt to accumulate and break contact.