Which should I use Regular Kapton tape or Low Static Kapton tape for insulating decoders and motors for DCC installs?
I never knew there was a Low Static Kapton. The plain old Kapton works fine AFAIK. Mostly, unless you have an issue with static (certain weather can aggravate that, along with your general climate) I wouldn't see the need for the special stuff.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
I don't use Kapton tape. I do use Scotch plastic packing tape either clear or brown. I think there is no reason you can't use it. My locos don't get that warm that it would effect the tape. Just because someone says you have to use only kapton tape doesn't mean YOU HAVE to.
Kapton tape has outstanding adhesive qualities, and it is an excellent insulator.
So, it should be the tape of choice on decoder installs.
Low Static Kapton tape doesn't cost anymore than regular Kapton tape, and it is recommended where static discharge is a concern. Otherwise, the regular Kapton tape works just fine.
Rich
Alton Junction
I haven't found that I've needed Kapton tape for anything. I use double sided foam tape to secure decoders and I use Scotch Magic tape to secure loose wires to the motor. Even with Athearn or Proto decoder conversions, if you cut off the prongs that make the ground connections or reverse the brackets, then nothing is going to touch the frame. The only time where I've needed to insulate is on old Bachmann/Spectrum drives where the motor is surrounded by the chassis and cardboad or regular electrical tape will do there. All other insulating is done with shribk tubing. I've never had any problems with shorts on any conversions.
Jay
C-415 Build: https://imageshack.com/a/tShC/1
Other builds: https://imageshack.com/my/albums
The real beauty of Kapton tape is its thinness. It insulates without interfering with the installation.
Like Modelmaker, I use double sided foam tape to secure the decoder/light board to the top of the motor (I'm assuming we are continuing the discussion of the Athearn Blue Box thread). I cut it down to about 2/3s width so it is slightly wider than the top clip. It holds the decoder quite stoutly, and it sticks to the underside of the decoder, not interferring with the doodads on the top.
For the underside, I stick tape to the frame, not the motor. I cover the entire flat motor mount area with any kind of thin tape, two or three layers depending upon the type of tape, and even up the sides a little bit. I don't see a reason for "insulating" tape since all we're trying to do is to put a barrier between the bottom clip and the metal frame. After the frame is well taped, I use a sharp number two pencil to poke holes in the tape for the rubber motor mounts/new nylon screws. If the tape loses its stickiness in ten years, who cares? there is still a large barrier in between the clip and the frame that isn't going anywhere unless you remove the motor again.
Edit: Yes, removing the clip's prongs is still important.
- Douglas
So low static if I'm taping the back of the decoder wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea. Additionally, do I need to replace the metal screws from the Athearn RTR locomotive motor mount? The 4 screws do not appear to contact the motor, but they become magnetically attractive when installed (i had a track nail that was loose on the workbench get stick to a screw head).
Doughless I don't see a reason for "insulating" tape since all we're trying to do is to put a barrier between the bottom clip and the metal frame.
I don't see a reason for "insulating" tape since all we're trying to do is to put a barrier between the bottom clip and the metal frame.
If you are trying to put a barrier between the bottom clip and the metal frame, aren't you trying to insulate the metal frame from the decoder?
richhotrain Doughless I don't see a reason for "insulating" tape since all we're trying to do is to put a barrier between the bottom clip and the metal frame. I'm not sure that I get your point here. If you are trying to put a barrier between the bottom clip and the metal frame, aren't you trying to insulate the metal frame from the decoder? Rich
I'm not sure that I get your point here.
I meant I keep the bottom clip of the Athearn motor from touching the frame. I simply tape up the inside of the frame since there is more surface area to stick too, rather than putting tape on the bottom of the motor. Its all the same really.
I ended up taping both the motor clips and the frame under the motor on my GP38RTR, since I couldnt find the source of my fried decoder. I suspect that the leads for functions 3&4 (green and purple) came into contact with either the frame or the right rail leads from the trucks. Both the leads from the trucks and the unused function leads have been taped. I noticed while on the programming track the decoder made a chirping sound when commands were sent to it. Decoder type NCE D13SRJ. Is this indicative of a short?
Also do the frame screws come into contact with the motor?
BMMECNYC I noticed while on the programming track the decoder made a chirping sound when commands were sent to it. Decoder type NCE D13SRJ. Is this indicative of a short?
I noticed while on the programming track the decoder made a chirping sound when commands were sent to it. Decoder type NCE D13SRJ. Is this indicative of a short?
When commands are received by a decoder while on the program track the decoder responds with a very short burst of power to the motor, moving the locomotive a small fraction of an inch. This is normal--it is the way you know whether or not a command was received by the decoder. The chirp sound you heard is probably the tiny jerk of the locomotive.
Now, if you heard a real chirping sound, all bets are off. I don't know what that would be.
I looked into buying kapton tape online from the manufacturer (Dupont). They wanted $8.50 per roll, which I found acceptable. Then I went to the shipping and they wanted $22 for UPS ground (cheapest option). They can keep their kapton tape. Any suggestions about where to find kapton tape?
Several of the online hobby suppliers stock Kapton tape. Ulrich, Litchfield Station, MB Klein and Tony's all offer it. The prices vary depending on the width of the tape and the length of the roll. However, it is not cheap.
Joe
JoeinPA Several of the online hobby suppliers stock Kapton tape. Ulrich, Litchfield Station, MB Klein and Tony's all offer it. The prices vary depending on the width of the tape and the length of the roll. However, it is not cheap. Joe
http://www.kaptontape.com/
Thanks for the link Rich. There are some good savings. How are their shipping costs?
Out of curiosity I followed Rich's link. Shipping for one $10 roll of 1/2" tape was estimated at$30.14! Think I will pass.
richhotrain It is less expensive and you get a lot more if you go right to the source.
From what I can interpret from BMMECNYC's last post he already looked at the manufacturer's website and objected to the cost. Or maybe the $22 shipping charge.
The cost I did find acceptable. Shipping was unacceptable. 3-4x the price of the item for shipping that isnt even overnight. No thanks. I'll continue to use black electrical tape. Most decoders are shrink wrapped anyway with a material that is thicker that electrical tape, and I only put the tape on the bottom of the decoder for the most part.
davidmbedardHmm mm. ..why the OPs sudden need of Kapton? I thought he didn't want my help?!?....hope he enjoyed my Tutorial.....lol
I did not look at your tutorial. I told you I have no need of your kind of assistance. Other people had suggested it before you, as well as the Kalmbach DCC book. Also I am going to ask you to leave me alone, davidmbedard.
That having been said Kalmbach employees also suggest the use of IDCs, which I have on the authority of an electrical engineer, is a bad practice, so I take everything they say with a grain of salt. See thread "IDCs failing after 10years".
Also If you even bothered to read any follow up post, Im not going to pay the ridiculous shipping cost to obtain something that I dont actually need. Shipping a 100ft roll of 22ga copper wire from California (same place as the kapton tape), only costs $12.96. Shipping 8 rolls of copper wire costs $15.96. Why would I pay $22 in shipping for a roll of tape?
BMMECNYC The cost I did find acceptable. Shipping was unacceptable. 3-4x the price of the item for shipping that isnt even overnight. No thanks. I'll continue to use black electrical tape. Most decoders are shrink wrapped anyway with a material that is thicker that electrical tape, and I only put the tape on the bottom of the decoder for the most part.
But the material used to shrink wrap decoders is designed to dissipate heat .... unlike black electrical tape ....
Mark.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
Mark R. BMMECNYC The cost I did find acceptable. Shipping was unacceptable. 3-4x the price of the item for shipping that isnt even overnight. No thanks. I'll continue to use black electrical tape. Most decoders are shrink wrapped anyway with a material that is thicker that electrical tape, and I only put the tape on the bottom of the decoder for the most part. But the material used to shrink wrap decoders is designed to dissipate heat .... unlike black electrical tape .... Mark.
MB Klein had it for only $1 more than the manufacturer and at a shipping rate that was not insane. 1-3 year shelf life depending on the brand has me sort of concerned, also the high heat/high humidity combination degredation issues. Anyone experienced this?
Also the black tape is only on the back. The photo from the other forum post had black tape on both sides for handling the decoder until installed, to prevent ESD breakage. I will probably still remove the kapton tape from the top, as it will allow more heat dissapation (larger surface area of individual components being exposed to available air flow.
BMMECNYCMB Klein had it for only $1 more than the manufacturer
If I may ask a question about the Kapton without someone taking it the wrong way, the $9.75 Klein price is for 1/4 inch wide stuff. Would it not make more sense to use the 1 inch wide item?
Just asking.
I suspect that the shipping calculator on the Kapton web site is acting up or else they are discouraging small orders. I placed an order for one roll of 1" x 36 yards for $15 and got a shipping charge of $23, so I changed the quantity to 6 rolls at $90 and got a shipping charge of $14.
Call before you buy.
richhotrainI suspect that the shipping calculator on the Kapton web site is acting up or else they are discouraging small orders.
I think they are discouraging small orders. If you look at their terms and conditions, http://www.kaptontape.com/terms.php, it says that their minimum order is $50, and that orders less than that amount will have a $20 service charge added to them.
But maybe they'll cut one a break if called directly. (or not)
maxman BMMECNYC MB Klein had it for only $1 more than the manufacturer If I may ask a question about the Kapton without someone taking it the wrong way, the $9.75 Klein price is for 1/4 inch wide stuff. Would it not make more sense to use the 1 inch wide item? Just asking.
BMMECNYC MB Klein had it for only $1 more than the manufacturer
Depending on the specific application. But if im just using it to tape the motor lead clips on an athearn diesel, then 1" is a little overkill. I know ill have to use several small overlapped strips for the decoder.
The install failed not because of improper material, but from insufficient material used. Black electrical tape is an excellent insulator both in a electrical and thermal sense (8mils of Pvc tends to hold in heat apparently). I have run locomotives with black tapped decoders for 3+ hrs continously without decoder overheat issue. There was not even enough heat generated to deform the black tape. I bought a roll of kapton for the decoder use mostly. Also I find tearing black tape annoying. I still plan to use black tape for extra wire ends, taping over the right rail pickups on athearn locomotives, and for the back (non component side of unwrapped decoders).
I always use the 3/4" width of Kapton tape. I never see a need for anything wider, and it is pretty easy to trim it to something narrower.
Since you don;t really need all that much of it, some places will sell smaller quantities. Check Litchfield station, for one. That's where I got my first supply. Yes, if you extrapolate out, the price per foot they are charging for those small spools is kind of insane, but for a few bucks I got enough to last me through more than a half dozen installs.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Here are pictures of how I installed an Atlas lightboard to an Athearn BB GP38. Its not a decoder, but an NCE DA-SR would be the same. I used three pieces of scotch double stick tape to secure the board (decoder) to the top of the motor. You can see, its quite secure since I'm suspending the loco in the air by holding it only by the board.
Unless scotch tape conducts electricity, and unless their is actually a circuit on the undersided of a decoder, I don't see the need for special tape.
http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah221/doughless1/DSCF3341_zps5h1qgupu.jpg
http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah221/doughless1/DSCF3340_zps11atcpe4.jpg
http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah221/doughless1/DSCF3339_zpsjt70wrqs.jpg