I narrowed it down to NCE and Digitrax because that is what everyone seems to run. Bachmann was out of the question even though it's system probably is by far the cheapest. Lenz was recommended to me honestly by the guy whose helping me with my layout but once I looked at what they offered and I didn't see a wireless offer not to mention the throttle seemed to basic eliminated it. MRC I will admit looked very close to NCE and what's crazy is I use and still have their DC powerpacks. They were the power packs of choice it seems for DC layout builders but in DCC they seem to gotten loss between the big two so I unfairly didn't even look too much into them like I did with NCE and Digitrax.
Maybe I should though look at MRC although the NCE is pretty much what I'm leaning to simply because it seems to be the best.
Regg
I am reasonably intelligent and feel I would be happy with any system once I had learned how to use it. It so happens that Digitrax is what my closest LHS sold back when I got mine. I have never had occasion to regret its purchase. It wasn't particularly difficult to master. I certainly didn't purchase it thinking it looked or felt cheap. It is what was available to me, and it has served me reliably ever since.
bagalI get a little bemused by ongoing NCE vs Digitrax debates. Its not as if these are the only systems available out there for the OP to consider...
The OP himself said he had "pretty much narrowed it down to NCE and Digitrax", so I didn't see the need to talk about any other systems.
I know there are some Lenz users here, but reading through their instruction book - the operation and programming on those throttles is insanely complex, with levels and levels of menus, perhaps because of the few buttons and also something is probably lost in the translation from German. Digitrax is much more straightforward.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
bagal What do you think won on the day?
What do you think won on the day?
Alton Junction
Bill:
I hope the MRC system works out well for your club.
I chose the NCE Powercab mostly because of the throttle layout which is very similar the the MRC units. Ease of operation is the whole reason we are using DCC.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
I get a little bemused by ongoing NCE vs Digitrax debates. Its not as if these are the only systems available out there for the OP to consider. I run Lenz which was the best back in the day. Shame they didn't keep up the development. Anyway our club went through a selection process recently. Proponents of Lenz, Digitrax, NCE, MRC and Dynamis demonstrated their systems to members, most of whom had little DCC experience and the benefits of Loconet or no JMRI functionality of MRC had little meaning for them. They selected purely on the user exerience with is largely governed by the throttle.
Digitrax was dumped quickly. It was looked on as crude and poorly made and non user friendly, with a large learning curve. The The Digitrax wireless throttle doesn't even have an on/off switch and frankly looks crude.
MRC on the other hand has a nice form factor, looks well made and is intuative to use. Even has basic instructions on the throttle. The wireless throttle has an on/off switch and rechargeable batteries. All for a much lower cost than Digitrax.
Lenz was seen as too difficult to learn to use although the throttle was highlly regarded. No wireless option eliminated Lenz quickly.
Bill
4 locos with sound will be cutting it close with the Power Cab since each loco could draw 0.5 amps. If that is your plan to run a number of sound locos, four or more at a time, if it were me, I would consider the PH-Pro, 5 amp. It can be upgraded later to wireless.
Rich
Damn!
I guess I'm not going to get it because I do feel a little uncomfortable in the fact that I also saw the negative feedback and neutral one as well but would have been nice because all for $300 would be a good deal and it's wireless.
Now Rich I have to go ahead and purchase the NCE Powercab system and hope that is fine for my layout. Realized the NCE though is only 2amps and I thought it was 3 like the Digitrax starter system. The NCE says it can handle up to 4 locomotives, lets hope thats 4 locos with sound....OR I'm in trouble
maxman If I am in any way uncomfortable about a vendor's answer, I personally would not bid. Others may feel differently.
If I am in any way uncomfortable about a vendor's answer, I personally would not bid. Others may feel differently.
Regg05 Rich I just found a used NCE Procab system on Ebay for about $300 and it's wireless. What you think? Looks to be in great shape and although a little over my budget since I was going to get the Power cab and upgrade later but this seems to be a good deal. Your thoughts? http://www.ebay.com/itm/NCE-PH-PRO-R-digital-command-control-system-/171766697727?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27fe17ceff
I just found a used NCE Procab system on Ebay for about $300 and it's wireless. What you think? Looks to be in great shape and although a little over my budget since I was going to get the Power cab and upgrade later but this seems to be a good deal. Your thoughts?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NCE-PH-PRO-R-digital-command-control-system-/171766697727?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27fe17ceff
If I were to buy one used, I would want the seller to be the owner. Whenever I am selling stuff on eBay, I stress the fact that I bought it new and that I am the original owner.
If it were me, I would pass on this one.
This was his reponse
includes 5 amp power station--bought from high end train collector in Scottsdale az-if you have any hesitations please do not bid item powers up and appears to function properly
My original question to the seller
HiWhat all does this system include? Does it include the power supply or would I have to buy that? I know that its used but do you know how long its used? Are there any guarantee's if I receive item and it doesn't work?
So at this point I don't know. Seems like he wasn't much helpful and a little defensive if you asked me.
Nowhere do I read that the unit actually works, nor how old the unit is. Has it been upgraded?
Yes I see it's up for regular bidding. Doesn't scare me too much since the DCC market is pretty much saturated with NCE and Digitrax. What I want to know is if people think it's a good deal since it's used and you have no way of testing it. I know it's going for almost $525-550 on Ebay If its meant for me to have it I will if not oh well there will be others. I plan on purchasing the system either way by Monday.
Oh boy I just love eBay idiots. MAYBE he'll luck out and get it for $299. SHould have just gone for it, or stayed the heck out. Hpefull it wasn;t a friend of the seller's shilling.
You just missed a guy on the Digitrax list selling a DT402 and two DB150's for $300.
I guess it was $299 when it was buy it now. Looks like it is now up for regular bidding.
I don`t see a transformer/power supply...you might want to in quire?
Am i ever gonna be able to lay any track???
I am using a multimeter to measure voltage at both points. I only mentioned the RRampMeter reading because when I put a load on the rails at the various measuring points, the multimeter voltage readings closely corresponded to the RRampMeter voltage readings.
If you are measuring with the RRampMeter at one place and a regular multimeter at the other, then you can't compare the readings and you can't knowingly claim that there is no significant voltage drop.
While that may well be all true, the fact remains that the voltage readings are nearly identical at the beginning and at the end of the bus. I don't see any significant voltage drop.
richhotrainOK, my RRampMeter, which is wired inline about 3 feet from the booster shows voltage at 13.6. As I test voltage under load with my multimeter up and down the line, at the farthest point from the booster, I get a reading of 13.42...
As Randy said, your multimeter is not going to read the same as the RRampMeter.
The RRampMeter is designed for the DCC squarewave, while the multimeter, unless it is a true RMS meter, is designed for a sinewave. Most multimeters will actually measure the average voltage and adjust for the RMS of an expected sine wave. When measuring a square wave, this will result in a measurement about 1.11 times as much (the RMS voltage of a sine wave = 1.11 * average voltage, but RMS voltage of a square wave = average voltage), so your 13.42 reading is probably closer to 12.1.
Check with the multimeter at the same palce as the rrampmeter and compare those two, since the multimeter isn't going to read the DCC waveform accurately.
However, load does matter - if you only ever run one powered loco, or a pair doubleheaded, there won;t be nearly as much voltage drop as if you had a dozen running on that part of the layout. Wire resistence is a set number of ohms per foot, based on wire size. That doesn't change. What does change is the load at the end of the line, and from the length of the wire (both sides of the circuit, so 80 feet away is 160 feet of wire x the ohms per foot) and the current we can calculate the voltage lost in the wire: E=IR. Now, some people just plug in 5 or 10 amps depending on their booster, but you have circuit breakers in there as well, and if you have them set at say 3 amps, there's no way you cna have a greater than 3 amp load at the end of that 80 foot bus wire. So that gives you worst case voltage drop. Actual voltage drop will be that or less, depending on how much current is being drawn at that point. For a 160 foot run (out and back) of #12 wire, you need about 4 amps to get a 1V drop, which is noticeable if the adjoing section does not have that drop - if you start out near the booster and run the train toawrds that firther point, you may not notice slowing, but if you cross gaps into another section that only has say a 10 foot bus run, there will be a 1V jump crossing those gaps and you'd see that.
Whatever works - if distributing the power sources so the bus runs are 20 feet or less, you can use #16 wire and still get less voltage drop at the same load than the 80 foot #12 bus - and #16 wire is a LOT cheaper than #12.
OK, my RRampMeter, which is wired inline about 3 feet from the booster shows voltage at 13.6. As I test voltage under load with my multimeter up and down the line, at the farthest point from the booster, I get a reading of 13.42, so I still don't see any significant voltage drop 80 feet away.
CSX Robert richhotrain ...On my layout, the voltage at the booster is 14.2 volts. The bus in each direction is 80 feet. Out at the extreme end of the run, the voltage is 14.2. So, where is the voltage drop?.. You are apparently trying to measuring the voltage drop without a load at the point where you are measuring. Voltage drop is directly proportional to the load (V=I*R), so no load, no drop. To correctly measure the voltage drop you have to do it with the anticipated maximum load.
richhotrain ...On my layout, the voltage at the booster is 14.2 volts. The bus in each direction is 80 feet. Out at the extreme end of the run, the voltage is 14.2. So, where is the voltage drop?..
You are apparently trying to measuring the voltage drop without a load at the point where you are measuring. Voltage drop is directly proportional to the load (V=I*R), so no load, no drop. To correctly measure the voltage drop you have to do it with the anticipated maximum load.
richhotrain...On my layout, the voltage at the booster is 14.2 volts. The bus in each direction is 80 feet. Out at the extreme end of the run, the voltage is 14.2. So, where is the voltage drop?..
rrinker You can compensate for longer bus runs by using heavier wire, but for 100+ feet you need something like #8 wire to avoid too much voltage drop - #8 wire is expensive, and not exctly easy to manage. Phone cord is cheap - by spacing the boosters you can use #12 or even #14 wire if the runs are short enough, which is cheaper AND easier to work with. Even my 10x13 around the walls layout had almost 50 linear feet, 2x13 + 2x10. Booster was in the middle, each run was just under 25 feet. Since no section could really support more than a doubleheaded train per, #14 wire was plenty sufficient to not have any noticeable voltage drop.
You can compensate for longer bus runs by using heavier wire, but for 100+ feet you need something like #8 wire to avoid too much voltage drop - #8 wire is expensive, and not exctly easy to manage. Phone cord is cheap - by spacing the boosters you can use #12 or even #14 wire if the runs are short enough, which is cheaper AND easier to work with. Even my 10x13 around the walls layout had almost 50 linear feet, 2x13 + 2x10. Booster was in the middle, each run was just under 25 feet. Since no section could really support more than a doubleheaded train per, #14 wire was plenty sufficient to not have any noticeable voltage drop.
One example is my home's low voltage lanscape lighting. Over a 100 foot run, I see almost no voltage drip.
On my layout, the voltage at the booster is 14.2 volts. The bus in each direction is 80 feet. Out at the extreme end of the run, the voltage is 14.2. So, where is the voltage drop?
Hence the "old style" Digitrax PM42 - since it connects to Loconet, it can report which section has tripped (and also manually turn on/off the power to a given section), which is something I can have down in the corner of a JMRI panel. Or you can hook all those PSX's to a stationary input decoder to do the same.
Depends on what you mean by "large" layout and how it's shaped - 100 total linear feet around the room is big but not huge in my book - that's about how big my layout will be, which is in an approximately 25x20 space missing a few chunks - it;s around the perimeter plus a couple of penninsulas. Locating in the middle of that means at least a 50 foot bus run to each side. Two boosters distributed means 25' bus runs to each side of each booster, MUCH better. 3 boosters gets that down under 17 feet. For a REALLY huge layout - those lucky people who have a barn-size space, I can;t imagine centralizing all power sources for something like that. You cna compensate for longer bus runs by using heavier wire, but for 100+ feet you need something like #8 wire to avoid too much voltage drop - #8 wire is expensive, and not exctly easy to manage. Phone cord is cheap - by spacing the boosters you can use #12 or even #14 wire if the runs are short enough, which is cheaper AND easier to work with. Even my 10x13 around the walls layout had almost 50 linear feet, 2x13 + 2x10. Booster was in the middle, each run was just under 25 feet. Since no section could really support more than a doubleheaded train per, #14 wire was plenty sufficient to not have any noticeable voltage drop.
rrinker Just replace one item on the top shelf and you have the exact same thing but powered by Digitrax. Then there are all those RED LEDs.... For my planned basement empire, I intend to distribute boosters around the room rather than have a central electronics cabinet, just so the bus wires aren;t all so long. With any of the plans I've come up with so far, putting everything in one spot will lead to 50+ foot power bus runs. And here's the Loconet advantage - the cab bus and the booster bus are two different things with NCE. It's all the same with Digitrax - so you likely already have the cable run for that, to connect a radio tranceiver, or cab plug in panels, or a signal driver board, so you can just plug in a booster if needed, anywhere along the line without running any extra wires.
Just replace one item on the top shelf and you have the exact same thing but powered by Digitrax.
Then there are all those RED LEDs....
For my planned basement empire, I intend to distribute boosters around the room rather than have a central electronics cabinet, just so the bus wires aren;t all so long. With any of the plans I've come up with so far, putting everything in one spot will lead to 50+ foot power bus runs.
And here's the Loconet advantage - the cab bus and the booster bus are two different things with NCE. It's all the same with Digitrax - so you likely already have the cable run for that, to connect a radio tranceiver, or cab plug in panels, or a signal driver board, so you can just plug in a booster if needed, anywhere along the line without running any extra wires.
Randy, you gotta admit, all of those RED LEDs look real pretty.
Regg, those circuit breakers are used to protect separate power districts. At one time, my layout, a large double mainline, was one big power district protected by a single 5 amp booster. But, I got tired of everything coming to a halt in the event of a derailment causing a momentary short. So, I divided the layout into separate power districts, each protected by its own circuit breaker. I added a second booster to distribute power more efficiently.
Incidentally, the advantage of a "central electronics cabinet" is that everything is in one place so you can spot a problem without running around the entire layout room. That is especially critical when you have a large layout. If you center the cabinet in the middle of your layout, as I did, the bus wires are not all that long.