If I'm not mistaken, the first release of the Proto2000 PA-1s were available as New Haven 733 / Delaware & Hudson 16 and 18 / Erie 862 and 863 / Southern Pacific 300 and 301 / Frisco 2019 and 2022 / Undecorated
If your PA is not one of these, you probably should NOT have concern about the high current motors.
Mark.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
I have 2-LLP2K PAs and have never tested for amp draw. I installed TCS DP2X-UK decoders (non-sound) per their recommendation, and the locos run smoothly.
Dante
P.S. Decoders are rated for 1 amp continuous & 2 amp peak.
I have a Star Tec Hogger as a DC power pack for testing purposes - I'll have to run that and see what my amp draw is.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
JimT Trying to plan my work so I can work my plan. I've got a couple of LV Alco PA units sitting in their boxes, and I have read five or six threads here about the low but non-zero probability of getting the high-amp draw motor in some of the early Proto releases. In particular I noted this thread: http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/p/229383/2561927.aspx#2561927 which included Mike Lehman's photos of a second-release installation of a drop-in NCE D13SR. Just wanted to see if a photo of the board in my loco confirms that it's in fact a later release, or whether I should still do the stall test with a multimeter (easy enough to do tonight when I get home). Here's the photo below. Assuming it's ready to go, what are folks' recommendations on a nonsound decoder, or is there a solid sound decoder/speaker combo I should be thinking about? I've only got these two, so sound wouldn't necessarily break the bank. thanks.
Trying to plan my work so I can work my plan. I've got a couple of LV Alco PA units sitting in their boxes, and I have read five or six threads here about the low but non-zero probability of getting the high-amp draw motor in some of the early Proto releases.
In particular I noted this thread: http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/p/229383/2561927.aspx#2561927 which included Mike Lehman's photos of a second-release installation of a drop-in NCE D13SR.
Just wanted to see if a photo of the board in my loco confirms that it's in fact a later release, or whether I should still do the stall test with a multimeter (easy enough to do tonight when I get home). Here's the photo below.
Assuming it's ready to go, what are folks' recommendations on a nonsound decoder, or is there a solid sound decoder/speaker combo I should be thinking about? I've only got these two, so sound wouldn't necessarily break the bank. thanks.
I bought two new Proto 2000 PA units on eBay last year and installed NCE D13SRP decoders. They run fine.
I was unaware of early high amp version when I bought these two units, but it turned out that they were the low amp version. That was good news.
Is there no way to tell from the box or enclosed literature which version it is?
Rich
Alton Junction
rrinker I have heard of the bad ones pulling 4-5 amps - but I have a feeling people were exaggerating.
I have a dozen Proto 2000 PA-1s on my roster. I HAD 13 but before installing a Loksound Select I checked the current draw (as always) using an MRC Tech 3 that has built in meters.
That engine draws 4.3 amps while running at 10 volts. The meters peg at 5 amps so I didn't even bother with stall current. Why bother, no HO decoder will handle that.
I gave it to a friend who still runs it on DC and it is just fine. So out of 13 engines only the one had the hi-amp motor.
Ed
Mark R. I ran my First release Proto PA for a couple years with a TCS A4X in it with no problems until I heard about the potential problem. Pulled the decoder and did a stall test and it was pulling about 3.1 amps, but under 1 amp when running. Got a replacement motor from Walthers but the engine never did run quite as well again. That high draw motor was really smooth and would coast for nearly ten feet from full throttle shut down. Wish I would have kept it in there .... Mark.
I ran my First release Proto PA for a couple years with a TCS A4X in it with no problems until I heard about the potential problem. Pulled the decoder and did a stall test and it was pulling about 3.1 amps, but under 1 amp when running.
Got a replacement motor from Walthers but the engine never did run quite as well again. That high draw motor was really smooth and would coast for nearly ten feet from full throttle shut down.
Wish I would have kept it in there ....
Mark, I'm kind of glad you added this. I suspect that I could similarly run the locomotive for quite a while and never know the difference. And it was smooth on the test track tonight, you're right about that. More to think about.
I did find some more info about remotoring on Bruce Petrarca's pages, http://www.mrdccu.com/install/hods/Life-Like-Proto2000-PA.htm , he used an A-Line repowering kit with a Mashima motor. His was a sound installation, so I suspect he had to do more in the way of modifications to the frame and the weight.
Not that I know of. NWSL has a whole bunch of sizes and a PA is a pretty wide body, so you should not have any problems. Walthers' catalog at least used to list all the dimensions... length, diameter, shaft diameter, single or double ended, etc. Typical can motor draws about .5A at full stall.
Or for that matter, Walthers/Proto might just have the new motors available.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
Bayfield Transfer Railway NWSL and A-Line both make can motors with ridiculously low current draws for somewhere around $30 apiece. No need to use a sacrificial decoder.
NWSL and A-Line both make can motors with ridiculously low current draws for somewhere around $30 apiece. No need to use a sacrificial decoder.
Thanks Michael, I'll check those out in the morning. Is there any particular one I should look at that's specific to the Proto PA units?
rrinker That extra 1/2 amp is plenty to blow the decoder. Now, under ordinary conditions, the motor should never become stalled like that - this is why I hate traction tires, and why you should not add too much weight to locos, they should slip when trying to pull too many cars, not stall out. You might be able to run like this for years - until one day a gear picks up a piece of ballast and jams solid, poof goes the decoder. I have heard of the bad ones pulling 4-5 amps - but I have a feeling people were exaggerating. 1 amp slipping is really excessive for a loco of that vintage, by that time, many HO locos were drawing what N scale locos did a decade before, and the N scale locos of the time needed to be measured using the milliamps scale. Combined with the 2.5 amps stalled, I think that's one of the bad ones. --Randy
That extra 1/2 amp is plenty to blow the decoder. Now, under ordinary conditions, the motor should never become stalled like that - this is why I hate traction tires, and why you should not add too much weight to locos, they should slip when trying to pull too many cars, not stall out. You might be able to run like this for years - until one day a gear picks up a piece of ballast and jams solid, poof goes the decoder.
I have heard of the bad ones pulling 4-5 amps - but I have a feeling people were exaggerating. 1 amp slipping is really excessive for a loco of that vintage, by that time, many HO locos were drawing what N scale locos did a decade before, and the N scale locos of the time needed to be measured using the milliamps scale. Combined with the 2.5 amps stalled, I think that's one of the bad ones.
--Randy
Well, I was afraid you'd say that. So if I'm looking for two new motors, what am I looking for?
I may still throw in a couple of $25 decoders and run them until they go "poof," but I'll remotor them sooner than that if I can find the right motors.
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I can skip step one - dug a couple of old Radio Shack ohm meters out - cleaned the crusty battery corrsion off the terminals and got them working again - leads are severed on one however - anyway, when I get time I'll take a look.
JimT Randy, thanks so much for including these instructions again. Here's the deal: holding the loco at full spin the loco drew exactly one amp. But when I held the flywheel as you describe in step six, I got it to increase to 2.5 amps, no more. Did this a couple of times, same result, it did not hit 3-4 amps. So now what?
Randy, thanks so much for including these instructions again. Here's the deal: holding the loco at full spin the loco drew exactly one amp. But when I held the flywheel as you describe in step six, I got it to increase to 2.5 amps, no more. Did this a couple of times, same result, it did not hit 3-4 amps. So now what?
It occurs to me I could try it with a simple decoder--I have a couple of NCE 8 pin N141P decoders on hand. They are rated at 1.3 amps continuous, 2 amp peak/stall. That seems to me to be pretty close to what I got for amp readings, would that extra 1/2 amp of additional current blow the decoder? Or is it really rather unlikely that I'd stall the unit while pulling a train on the layout?
I guess I'm asking for opinions on whether it's worth plugging it in and seeing what happens . . . .
rrinker Step 1 - go to Harbor Freight and get the $5 or less multimeter. Last flyer they had a coupon for a free one, but I forgot to go get another. Step 2 - grab your old DC power pack, and a spare section of track. Plug the multimeter leads in for the 10 amp range. Connect one rail to the variable DC of the power pack. Connect the other rail to one multimeter lead (clip leads work great for this). Connect the other multimeter lead to the other variabel DC power pack terminal. Step 3 - remove shell of loco and set on the rails Step 4 - don;t forget to turn on the multimeter Step 5 - hold the loco so it just spinds, crank up the DC power pack to full throttle. Note the approximate reading of the meter (it will be varying a lot I'm sure). Step 6 - the hard part - while looking at the multimeter, grab one of the flywheels to stall the motor and note the reading. Do not hold it long, just to see the number. Step 7 - shut off the power pack. If the meter reading in Step 6 was 1.0 or less, this is definitely not one of the problem motors and a normal HO decoder can be used just fine. Up to about 1.3 amps - check the decoder you plan to use for the actual steady and peak currents it can handle, but HO is 1-1.3 amps usually. If you have one of the ones with the heavy current motor, it will be quite high 3-4 amps at least. Those will need new motors. --Randy
Step 1 - go to Harbor Freight and get the $5 or less multimeter. Last flyer they had a coupon for a free one, but I forgot to go get another.
Step 2 - grab your old DC power pack, and a spare section of track. Plug the multimeter leads in for the 10 amp range. Connect one rail to the variable DC of the power pack. Connect the other rail to one multimeter lead (clip leads work great for this). Connect the other multimeter lead to the other variabel DC power pack terminal.
Step 3 - remove shell of loco and set on the rails
Step 4 - don;t forget to turn on the multimeter
Step 5 - hold the loco so it just spinds, crank up the DC power pack to full throttle. Note the approximate reading of the meter (it will be varying a lot I'm sure).
Step 6 - the hard part - while looking at the multimeter, grab one of the flywheels to stall the motor and note the reading. Do not hold it long, just to see the number.
Step 7 - shut off the power pack.
If the meter reading in Step 6 was 1.0 or less, this is definitely not one of the problem motors and a normal HO decoder can be used just fine. Up to about 1.3 amps - check the decoder you plan to use for the actual steady and peak currents it can handle, but HO is 1-1.3 amps usually.
If you have one of the ones with the heavy current motor, it will be quite high 3-4 amps at least. Those will need new motors.
For what it's worth I'm using a pretty decent multitester (Sperry 152A), put in fresh batteries, and calibrated it correctly.
I presume the frame is much like the LifeLike P2K E6 I recently converted to DCC. Used a LokSound Select plus two 1.1" HiBass speakers, runs fine and sounds teriffic. I think I had to grind the rear frame ledge a bit wider for the speaker pair.
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
The P1K models came long after the heavy current PA's and E's. Should be OK.
I have a pair of Proto 1000 F2A/F2B in LV paint. Do these P1K locos have the same problem/issue of high amp motors? I haven't run them in a couple of years but want to convert them to DCC and they are at least 6-7 years old.
-Bob
Life is what happens while you are making other plans!
I've got one too, still new in the box I got back in the day at the Buffalo NY GATS show, early-mid 1990's. Mines the D&RGW yellow/silver 4-stripe. I never did determine if it is one of the high-amp draw Proto 2000 PA's either.
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