Thank to those of you who dug up the release info on the PAs .I know that my first release NH PAs have an issue that may be dealt with.I run DC but it sounds like the motors should be replaced with a lower current draw motor . There is no reason even in DC to draw this high current even though I have 2 Controlmaster 20s. I need to replace the headlights with leds anyway.
Ron High
I have 3 P2K LL PA's in NH colors. thanks to this forum I now know #0762 & #0773 are 1st release[high amp] and #0763 is 3rd release[low amp]
all 3 of these loco's have early Soundtraxx DCC sound decoders /speakers installed about 10 years ago. they have had no problems. have run at home as single units, and at MRR Club layout as A-A consist pulling both pass[5-6cars] & freight[10-20 cars] on 1-2% grades with no trouble.
FA-1
Mark R. Second release .... Santa Fe (#51 & #52) w/ML&DB War Bonnet D&RGW (#51A & #52A) w/ML & DB 4 Stripe Silver & Gold Erie (#853 & #857) Black & Yellow Gulf, Mobile & Ohio (w/ML) Maroon & Red w/gold stripe Nickel Plate (#187 & #190) W/ML As delivered - Blue & White Pennsylvania (#5754A & #5755A) Brunswick Green 5 Stripe Southern Pacific (#6036 & #6043) W/ML & DB) ***y Nose Undec W/ML, original number board Undec W/ML, 45 degree number board Third release .... ATSF (#70, #73) D&RGW (#600, #601) original black & yellow Erie-Lackawanna (#857, #859) gray and maroon w/ yellow stripes Lehigh Valley (#609, #611) Cornell Red w/black stripes Missouri Pacific (#8002, #8007) Blue & Gray Eagle New Haven (#0763, #0776) McGinnis - secony red, black, white Pennsylvania (#5752A, #5753A) tuscan red, five stripe Southern Pacific (#6005, #6009) Daylight There was also at least a fourth release as well as they also did D&H 17 and 19 which aren't listed in the first three runs. Mark.
Second release ....
Santa Fe (#51 & #52) w/ML&DB War Bonnet D&RGW (#51A & #52A) w/ML & DB 4 Stripe Silver & Gold Erie (#853 & #857) Black & Yellow Gulf, Mobile & Ohio (w/ML) Maroon & Red w/gold stripe Nickel Plate (#187 & #190) W/ML As delivered - Blue & White Pennsylvania (#5754A & #5755A) Brunswick Green 5 Stripe Southern Pacific (#6036 & #6043) W/ML & DB) ***y Nose Undec W/ML, original number board Undec W/ML, 45 degree number board
Third release ....
ATSF (#70, #73) D&RGW (#600, #601) original black & yellow Erie-Lackawanna (#857, #859) gray and maroon w/ yellow stripes Lehigh Valley (#609, #611) Cornell Red w/black stripes Missouri Pacific (#8002, #8007) Blue & Gray Eagle New Haven (#0763, #0776) McGinnis - secony red, black, white Pennsylvania (#5752A, #5753A) tuscan red, five stripe Southern Pacific (#6005, #6009) Daylight
There was also at least a fourth release as well as they also did D&H 17 and 19 which aren't listed in the first three runs.
Mark.
Believe this was the fourth and final Release, and that by then it was under Walthers ownership:
40100 PROTO 2000 Diesel ALCO PA-PB Set w/Mars Light - Powered -- Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe #59B w/Mars Light & 58A HO 179.95N 15-Mar-2006
40101 PROTO 2000 Diesel ALCO PA-PB Set w/Mars Light - Powered -- Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe #62B w/Mars Light & 60A HO 179.95N 15-Mar-2006
40102 PROTO 2000 Diesel ALCO PA w/Mars Light - Powered -- Delaware & Hudson #17 HO 89.98N 15-Mar-2006
40103 PROTO 2000 Diesel ALCO PA w/Mars Light - Powered -- Delaware & Hudson #19 HO 89.98N 15-Mar-2006
40104 PROTO 2000 Diesel ALCO PA-PB Set w/Mars Light - Powered -- Denver & Rio Grande Western(TM) #6001/6002 HO 179.95N 15-Mar-2006
40105 PROTO 2000 Diesel ALCO PA-PB Set w/Mars Light - Powered -- Denver & Rio Grande Western(TM) #6013/6012 HO 179.95N 15-Mar-2006
40106 PROTO 2000 Diesel ALCO PA - Powered -- New Haven #0762 HO 89.98N 15-Mar-2006
40107 PROTO 2000 Diesel ALCO PA - Powered -- New Haven #0769 HO 89.98N 15-Mar-2006
40108 PROTO 2000 Diesel ALCO PA-PB Set - Powered -- Pennsylvania #5756A/5756B HO 179.95N 15-Mar-2006
40109 PROTO 2000 Diesel ALCO PA-PB Set - Powered -- Pennsylvania #5759A/5752B HO 179.95N 15-Mar-2006
40110 PROTO 2000 Diesel ALCO PA-PB Set w/Mars Light - Powered -- Union Pacific(R) #605 w/Mars Light & 600B HO 179.95N 15-Mar-2006
40111 PROTO 2000 Diesel ALCO PA-PB Set w/Mars Light - Powered -- Union Pacific(R) #606/606B HO $179.95 15-Mar-2006
40112 PROTO 2000 Diesel ALCO PA-PB Set - Powered -- Alco Demonstrator #8375/8375B HO $179.95 15-Mar-2006
It's not so much a matter of finding a decoder that will handle that extra current, but that extra current is unnecessarily being robbed from your DCC system.
If that motor is drawing nearly 3 amps, that's equivalent to running six "normal" engines. If you are running a pair of them, that could potentially overload a 5 amp supply on their own !
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
farrellaa I had forgotten about a pair of the PA's I had in NYC and they are on the list as a first release. I guess I will just leave them DC and resell them or 'loan' them to my display case. -Bob
I had forgotten about a pair of the PA's I had in NYC and they are on the list as a first release. I guess I will just leave them DC and resell them or 'loan' them to my display case.
-Bob
Why not call or email TCS and see if they have any experience with that release or other suggestions. They are very helpful.
Dante
Life is what happens while you are making other plans!
Just an update to this thread, I did end up getting two of the TCS DP2X-UK decoders (I unfortunately ordered the regular DP2X by mistake, had to reorder--hence the delay) and have them both installed. Both work fine.
I have to go back to my NCE manual to learn how to MU them together as a consist, then I will know if they will blow the system with just the 2amp Power Cab. I probably won't get to this until tomorrow though.
Those two ATSF locos in the 3rd release, numbered 70 and 73, are my PAs, item numbers 21568 and 21569.
Rich
Alton Junction
riogrande5761 According to an other listing, my 4-stripe D&RGW was from the 2nd run.
According to an other listing, my 4-stripe D&RGW was from the 2nd run.
Couldn't figure out how to make the wayback machine work (), but I did some google searches for "Proto 2000 Alco PA second release" and turned up a link to a discussion on another board that lists the road names for the third release, which were announced in June 1998 with scheduled delivery in September 1998:
http://www.craftsclassic.com/10_eb1999f61727c6fa_1.htm
So according to this source, the LV units I have are third-release locomotives.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Mark R. LifeLike's old site on the Internet Archive .... web.archive.org/web/20050421064422/http://www.lifelikeproducts.com/proto/holocoarchive/previouslyreleased/papb.htm Mark.
LifeLike's old site on the Internet Archive ....
web.archive.org/web/20050421064422/http://www.lifelikeproducts.com/proto/holocoarchive/previouslyreleased/papb.htm
My two ATSF PA units are 21568 and 21569.
My PAs are Erie 853 & 857, black and yellow; therefore, apparently a later release.
that's awesome, I've heard of those sites before, never used one. Really appreciate your digging that up!
That's great, thanks Mark! where did you find the list?
Ok - Here's the definitive list of first releases ....
21611
Delaware & Hudson #16 (w/Mars Light& Dynamic Brakes)
Blue Bonnet
21612
Delaware & Hudson #18 (w/ML & DB)
21613
Erie #862
Green
21614
Erie #863
21615
New Haven #0762
As Delivered:Dark Green
21616
New Haven #0773
21617
New York Central #4200
Lightning Stripe
21618
New York Central #4201
21619
New York Central #4300 (B-unit)
21620
New York Central #4301 (B-unit)
21625
Union Pacific #600 (w/ML & DB)
Yellow & Gray with Red & Black Lettering
21626
Union Pacific #604 (w/ML & DB)
21627
Union Pacific #602B (B-unit w/DB)
21628
Union Pacific #605B (B-unit w/DB)
21629
Wabash #1020 (w/ML)
As Delivered: Gray & Blue
21630
Wabash #1020A (w/ML)
21670
St. Louis Southwestern #300
Daylight
21671
St. Louis Southwestern #301
21631
Undecorated (w/ML & DB, original # board)
21632
Undecorated (B-Unit w/DB)
21609
Undecorated (w/ML & DB, 45° board)
rrinker Used to be an easy way to tell that stuff - Before Walthers, Life Like had a section of their web site that listed all the Proto 2000 runs and release dates, cars and locos. Walthers needs to restore this. --Randy
Used to be an easy way to tell that stuff - Before Walthers, Life Like had a section of their web site that listed all the Proto 2000 runs and release dates, cars and locos. Walthers needs to restore this.
--Randy
If you had the original Lifelike url, you could probably find that page using an Internet Archive.
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
richhotrain I have a RRampMeter wired in line to measure voltage and amps. My Proto 2000 ATSF PAs each draw 0.49 amps, so I obviously have the later version. I would be curious what the current draw is on your PA locos. Rich
I have a RRampMeter wired in line to measure voltage and amps.
My Proto 2000 ATSF PAs each draw 0.49 amps, so I obviously have the later version. I would be curious what the current draw is on your PA locos.
Rich, if you're asking about my locos, the one I tested drew 1 amp even at full throttle and 2.5 amps stalled with me holding the flywheel. The range on the multimeter is 0-20A, so obviously if I got an ammeter that showed fractions from 0 to 5 amps, I'd likely have a somewhat more precise figure.
So Mark's point is well-taken, if I run the two units together as an AA lashup, I'm pretty much at the limit of what the Power Cab can do, and that's without hooking up a train or climbing grades.
Still can't find an actual release ad (although I do remember seeing them at the time), it sounds as though they were released around the fourth quarter of 97, although they would have obviously been announced earlier than that.
Mark, good point--but at this point just getting back into the hobby, I'm a sole operator with a small layout (and likely temporary until I figure out what I really want). So far it's just a Power Cab but I'll upgrade to a Pro Cab and a power booster at some point. But you are right about the power hunger of these current motors.
And Rich, actually, no, I don't think we know for sure: these two engines of mine seem to be somewhere inbetween the low-current, no problems/no worries PA units that some folks have, and the Amperage-Eating Alco PA from Hell that Ed gave away. Clearly mine seem to meter at 1amp each just to run, whereas Ed's consumed 4+amps just to run. So who knows? But I do think it likely that my unit was one of the later releases, partly based on Mark's memory; and also the info on the blue box does specifically mention the "low amp draw" of the unit--I imagine LifeLike rewrote their marketing spin on laters units after the troubles with the first release.
Jim, I may have missed this, but have you determined that your PAs are the high amp version?
Like I said earlier, I ran mine for a couple years with no problem and only then changed the motor just because .... nothing had gone bad. I just didn't want the excess draw on my system.
Aside from possibly damaging a decoder, the other thing to consider IS the current draw on your DCC system. It won't hurt it by no means, but when it is drawing the same current as three or four more efficient engines, it's robbing power from your system. If your DCC system only puts out 2 amps, almost all your system's power is going to that single engine.
Mark R. I checked the Lifelike ads in all my 1994 / 5 / 6 / 7 and 8 Model Railroader magazines, last night, and the only ad I found for the PAs was pertaining to their third release ! I also checked my old Walthers catalogues from the same time frame, and no PAs listed there either. (?) What gives ? I'm positive I recalled seeing ads for them when they were first announced as D&H was in the first release and I just had to have the pair ! Mark.
I checked the Lifelike ads in all my 1994 / 5 / 6 / 7 and 8 Model Railroader magazines, last night, and the only ad I found for the PAs was pertaining to their third release ! I also checked my old Walthers catalogues from the same time frame, and no PAs listed there either. (?)
What gives ? I'm positive I recalled seeing ads for them when they were first announced as D&H was in the first release and I just had to have the pair !
I'm glad it's not just me, I couldn't find anything. Still, the release road names you mentioned make sense--at the time they came out I was very active in a local club, and one of our members absolutely had to have the Erie units, which I remember were beautiful. There must not have been an LV release at the time, otherwise I suspect I might have been interested myself.
Still a wee bit concerned though about the 2.5 amp stall current--I read up a bit on stall current the other night and understand a little better why even if it works, it's not ideal, especially given the low current motors that are out there.
Pretty sure Petrarca used an 18 x 33mm flat can motor (can anyone verify that size?), the Proto Power ones (#40321) that I'm seeing right now are $50-ish apiece. Plus another $100 apiece if I want to do sound. Hmmm. Again I might just throw the $25 decoder on each one and run them for a while just for running them's sake. I've got an awful lot of locomotives I just want to get up and running again on dcc; like I said at the top, I need to plan my work so I can work my plan.
Mark R. If I'm not mistaken, the first release of the Proto2000 PA-1s were available as New Haven 733 / Delaware & Hudson 16 and 18 / Erie 862 and 863 / Southern Pacific 300 and 301 / Frisco 2019 and 2022 / Undecorated If your PA is not one of these, you probably should have concern about the high current motors. Mark.
If I'm not mistaken, the first release of the Proto2000 PA-1s were available as New Haven 733 / Delaware & Hudson 16 and 18 / Erie 862 and 863 / Southern Pacific 300 and 301 / Frisco 2019 and 2022 / Undecorated
If your PA is not one of these, you probably should have concern about the high current motors.
Mark, I was wondering about this, I went back in the digital archive to see if I could find the original product announcement, no luck so far, the search function was a bit squirrelly yesterday. But this is really helpful, if this is the case, this might be another argument for holding off just a bit on the remotoring.
BTW, I've seen two different dates for when these came out--both 1995 and 1997. Offhand do you know which year? anyway, thanks for this info.
Mark R. If your PA is not one of these, you probably should have concern about the high current motors.