NMRA new standard for HO DC is 16V? Really?

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

Over50

 

 

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

 

Over50

 

rrinker

Well, according to the MTH "Mythbusters" ad in the latest MR (Digital is definitely good for something - I get mine WAY before my print copy comes) it is. This in response to the "myth" that MTH Protosound 3.0 locos run slow on DC power. Also syas the standard increased more than 10 years ago. Hmmm.

                 --Randy

 

 

 

Well, gee, Randy.....just think how much trouble it would have saved you had you known this when you first got started in DCC....  

 

 

 

 

 

Over50,

So what is your point? This whole post is not about DCC at all? To my knowledge Randy is well informed about DCC. 

His reason for this post relates to poor performance by MTH locos on DC, and their attempt to say it's the users fault.

Sheldon

 

 

 

 

 

Lighten up AC. What I posted was directed at MTH's statement not Randy. It's obvious you don't recognize sarcasm when you read it...... 

 

Sarcasm is much more effective (and easier to decern when reading) when the statement makes sense.

Sheldon

[Over50]

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

 

Sarcasm is much more effective (and easier to decern when reading) when the statement makes sense.

Sheldon 

Well, my bad. Had I known what I posted had to pass your content approval filtering I would have worded it simpler so you could understand.

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

Over50

 

 

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

 

Sarcasm is much more effective (and easier to decern when reading) when the statement makes sense.

Sheldon 

 

 

 

Well, my bad. Had I known what I posted had to pass your content approval filtering I would have worded it simpler so you could understand.

 

No, my bad, my mind reading skills are not up to par. I assumed from the get go you where being sarcastic, but I still can't figure out the reference? What bearing would the fact that MTH locos need 16 volts to work correctly in "analog" have to do with Randy's or anyones choice to change over to DCC?

Of course anyone interested in onboard sound should be in DCC, since none of these dual mode decoders, sound or otherwise work well on DC - at any voltage. In fact most of them won't work at all on my DC throttles. 

Sheldon

[dknelson]

An interesting thread - and I had noted that surprising reference to 16v DC in the ad, but assumed that in some way NMRA standards had been recrafted to apply to both DC and DCC.  

But isn't Dave at MTH still getting it wrong when he writes the following -- that is, if they amend their ad copy to say this, are they not still mis stating NMRA "recommendations"?   If something is the outlying voltage permitted, how is it accurate to say it is recommended?

Maybe the best test: have MTH submit their engines to the NMRA Magazine and see if they get a conformance warrant.   I have never seen an MTH engine be written up in the NMRA Magazine and thus I assume they do not submit them.

 

There has been a stigma that max voltage per NMRA recommendations was 12VDC.  Model Railroader Magazine used, and may still, a maximum of 12VDC in reviews published in the magazine.  They hurt our sales by creating a misunderstanding that MTH models run very slowly at max voltage.  It simply isn’t true.  ...  I will discuss this with Andy and again, agree the language used isn’t ideal.  We will clarify that MTH models reach their intended top scale speeds when 16VDC is applied.  And, 16VDC is within the range of recommended by the NMRA. 

 

  

 

Dave Nelson

[rrinker]

 MR has always tested to 12V when using DC. And it's a full 12V at load. The real problem is that MTH HAS to make them handle 16V because that's what they'd get if you ran on a DCS system. Notice in MR reviews when using DCC they also run faster, because typical HO DCC is about 15V on the track.

 Sound and DC don;t really mix anyway, even though other brands can reach full speed on the typical 12 volts, they still have the issue of not moving until the throttle is past half way (because you need to have power to the sound portion before any goes to the motor, or else the loco will be rolling before the sound ever comes on, and that would look kind of stupid), and have very little controllable range. But the decoder manufacturers have figured out how to make them go full speed at 12V DC as well as on 15V DCC track - most don;t turn into warp speed rocket ships on DCC despite the higher voltage. So maybe it's the regular dual mode DC/DCC sound decoders that "do more"

                       --Randy

 

[maxman]

rrinker

But the decoder manufacturers have figured out how to make them go full speed at 12V DC as well as on 15V DCC track - most don;t turn into warp speed rocket ships on DCC despite the higher voltage.

I'm not sure how the voltage on the track relates to the voltage getting to the motor.  There is some circuitry on the board that translates the AC track voltage to DC for the motor.  If the motors are 12 volt, I would think that the decoder manufacturer would want the decoder output voltage to the motor to be at that value.

I don't believe that I've read anywhere where they have actually determined the decoder motor voltage to be the reason some locos run faster on DCC.  And I also believe that I have seen a couple that ran slower on DCC.

Just asking another curiosity question.

[rrinker]

 The voltage to the track is directly related to the motor voltage. Decoders use a transitor H bridge for pulse width modulation. The amplitude of said pulses is the track voltage, less the diode drops in the transistor junctions - motor power is not first fed through some sort of voltage regulator. There IS a small regular to power the microcontroller, but that's it. There's a full wave rectifier for the function outputs and to drive the microcontroller. The motor drive transistors are basically between the track and th emotor - which is why having a motor output contact the track input (poorly isolated motor, for example) blows the decoder. Dead short across the main transistors.

 Witness two boosters in seperate power districts with different track voltages. When the loco cross the gaps from the low voltage one to the higher voltage one, if you do not touch the speed control, it will speed up. That's why I use the output of my Zephyr, used as the command station, driving only stationary decoders and not sharing rail power dutied with my DB150 set on the HO setting - the Zephyr puts out about 12.5 volts, not adjustable. The DB150 on HO puts out about 15 volts. Having both connected to the rails, with insulated joiners between the section, and there would be a noticable change in speed going on and off the Zephyr-powered section.

 Function outputs are also proportional to track voltage, basically the track voltage less two diode drops in the full wave rectifier. Except for those decoders with voltage and/or current regulators to allow direct connection of LEDs or low voltage bulbs, there is no voltage regulation, so if you use resistors based on 15 volts on the rails and you set it on a system set for large scale which uses as much as 22 volts, your lights may blow.

                   --Randy

 

[Javelina]

I've learned a few things reading the posts in this thread, stuff about how DCC works, how voltage requirements are met and so on. But the only 4 words in this whole thread that matter at all were written by Dave at MTH in his response to the NMRA. Those four words were: "THEY HURT OUR SALES". That's it. We live in a society that literally and figuratively worships capitalism. I'm not a Marxist Leninist Socialist pinko 'murica hater, it's just the truth. Banks that do dirty dealings and get caught are "too big to prosecute". MTH and MR exist for one reason only, to generate profit and feed their emplyees and shareholders (in the case of public companies) and owners.

"Never let the truth get in the way of a good story" and perhaps a good profit. Reality.

Lou

[rrinker]

 Well based on the response in this thread and two others, I kinda thing Capitalism is working, people are not falling for the MTH marketing but instead believing the NMRA/MR truth in this matter. MTH has produced products that do not meet all prevailing standards, and their sales have suffered for it, as admitted by them. You make a better product, people buy it. You make a not so good product, people don't.

       --Randy

[Javelina]

Randy,

In HO, where we've held to the 12VDC thing since it was established, yeah, there's push back from some to MTH's position. In O, especially 3 rail O MTH is huge. Three railers tend towards the "all the bells and whistles" approach and MTH gives it to them. My point wasn't that capitalism doesn't work, it was that the pressure of sales expectations can lead to some rather "creative" interpretations of "truth". We've all heard stories of fast talking salemen, car or otherwise, who are Kryptonite to honesty. Honesty would compel MTH to say "We know 12VDC is the common standard, but we feel we can offer more value to folks who are willing to supply more voltage to the track". "We don't mind being the game changers here as we beleive it will improve model railroading". As our trains have become more electronic a small squeeze has already occured due to electronic circuits requiring 3V or so to begin functioning.

I do think the day will come, for electronically augmented trains, where the voltage "standard" will reflect MTH's thinking. Automobiles went to 12V from 6 when their instuments and lights advanced and aircraft have been 24V at least since WWII (AFAIK). I also don't think it will happen without some discomfort and struggle.

Lou

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

Lou,

The real problem is that sound, and smoke and working class lights and whatever other electronic gizmos are on MTH trains don't work very well in DC anyway, so there is virtually no incentive for those of us still using DC to up our voltage and thereby create issues with all the trains we allready own.

DCC uses more than 12 volts, for all the obvious reasons of more "stuff" to run.

But dual mode sound decoders are a joke, sound simply does not work well when one is controlling the track voltage/polarity to control the train.

In fact, on my DC powered layout, most dual mode DCC decoders, sound or not, will not work at all. Yet my propulsion specs are within NMRA standards and Recommended Practices. I use Aristo Craft wireless throttles and my track voltage is 13.5 max.

The typical MTH loco would only run about 25 or 30 SMPH on my layout. All my DC powered locos run at nearly correct scale top speeds.

The MTH and BLI business model assumes everyone wants sound, smoke, station announcements, 25 lights, and whatever else they can think of to program into a memory chip.

But by all indications they have misread the market - at least to tune of about 40% who are not interested in all that - and it may be an even higher percentage.

I have no interest in onboard sound in small scales - it is just offensive noise. But MTH is clearly not interested in my money, so they have not gotten any of it.

Sheldon

[Javelina]

Sheldon,

You're absolutely right, I think, in your opinion that MTH probably isn't going after us DC only users any more than they go after "old school" 3 railers and tin platers. I suspect they think DC will go the way of the buggy whip. What you or I or any other hobbyist in our DC demographic do is not their focus. I believe they are much more interested in slightly younger buyers, people who are still in the "aquisitional" phase of their lives. The electronics appeal to them, since they grew up with electronics. They probably don't even think of MTH stuff as "electronic" per se. Just as you and I don't think of an automobile engine as "complicated" and "mechanical" in the same way a beginner would. Yes, we accept the mechanical nature of the device and a certain degree of complication as required by the task, but we aren't put off by it since we're so used to dealing with it (and have been for eons!). We grew up expecting to fix something if it stopped working, because it was fixable and we learned how to fix it. Many (not all) folks now don't have time, patience or ability to fix anything. Often, it isn't "fixable" since the black box is potted and you'd void the warranty if you tried anyway.

I taught my daughter, now 28, to work on her bicycle and dirt bike when she was a kid. She'll go on line for the skinny on a project and then go to work making what she needs. She's a welder and fabricator. My wife's son and daughter are both of the "if it's broken you wanted a new one anyway" persuasion. I wouldn't argue with them since we all have to choose our own way.

I feel that MTH, for their targeted buyer group, have chosen those folks who love the "enhanced" experience that smoke, chuffing, crew chatter, whistles and bells give them. I hold no bad feelings about that, I know I'm way past the age limit for many advertisers to consider worthwhile. I'm actually enjoying not being "marketed" to all the time. They (MTH) don't want our money all that much and of course we're only too happy to make that work out for 'em.

It's a big ol' world. I'll stick to my "dumb" trains.

Lou

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

Lou,

Yes you are right on with all of that. 

I worked in the hobby/model train business as a young man, back in the 1970's and early 1980's. We culd actually see a lot of this stuff comming, the technology, the demographic change in the hobby, and the product advancements.

I don't want ot sound like one of thsoe "the hobby is dieing" guys, because I don't think that at all. But it has changed in a lot of ways. I sometimes think the 1990's may go down as the high water mark for model rairoading in this sence - the hobby was still "populated" by modelers wanting and able to build stuff, and the technology gave us stuff like Proto2000, Spectrum, DCC, computerized block control, computerized signaling, good radio throttles, etc.

My main point about MTH, and BLI is this, target whatever part of the market you want, but don't cry about sales when that market turns out to not be big enough to support production or be profitable, when you have ignored nearly half the people (or more) who buy model trains.

AND, as per all my posts earlier in this thread, don't lie to me and expect me to just roll over and play dead.

Take care,

Sheldon

 

 

[joe323]

The problem with M T H is that they are trying to apply 3 rail marketing in the 2 rail world.

I know 3 rail guys that swear by M T H and like all of the bells and whistles but in the 2 rail world while sound is big most do not want crew talk etc. At least that's how I sense things.   Is the bells a bad thing no but I think they are missing the mainstream 2 rail modeler. To me M T H is a niche market. 

[cjcrescent]

Someone commented earlier about mth applying for a Conformance Warrent from the NMRA, but they haven't submitted for one. Locomotive wise, I can gaurentee that they would never get one. The proprietary control system alone would insure that right off the start, because the communication protocols used don't follow NMRA Standards. That alone precludes a warrent.

I am a member of several forums, and the opinion of mth on most of those is that as long as mth keeps bucking the NMRA, that they will always be a minor fish in a very big pond. Remember when they described, and may still do, DCC users as extremists? That alone is enough for me not to even look at their products. I would love to see them exit the HO market and am really surprised that they are still in it.

[joe323]

 would love to see them exit the HO market and am really surprised that they are still in it.

Well that could turn my Shark Tank car AKA my railroads collection agency into a collectors item.