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Shorting Insulfrog????

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  • Member since
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Posted by zstripe on Thursday, December 26, 2013 5:21 PM

Tomcat,

Glad you got it resolved. Yes ''Have Fun''.

Frank

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Posted by tomcat on Thursday, December 26, 2013 5:07 PM
Thanks also Frank who suggested insulating as well
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Posted by tomcat on Thursday, December 26, 2013 5:03 PM
Solution found !! Thanks Cacole. Insulated the inner rails on both ends of the turnout!! Seems my knowledge of insulfrogs is lacking more than I thought
Oh Rich! That's exactly the layout I have . Add spurs are directly opposite that siding. Thanks everyone for your replies, We all live and learn a little more everyday in this hobby !!!!! Addicted soooooooo bad!!!
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Posted by zstripe on Thursday, December 26, 2013 4:17 PM

Well the OP has two possibility's of the problem, so I guess we will have to wait to hear from him.

Frank

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Posted by richhotrain on Thursday, December 26, 2013 3:57 PM

It still is not clear exactly what the OP has as a track plan and exactly which turnout(s) cause the problem and under what condition.  

Rich

Alton Junction

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Posted by zstripe on Thursday, December 26, 2013 3:25 PM

 I said that in my first reply and Cacole also said it.

Frank

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Posted by richhotrain on Thursday, December 26, 2013 12:17 PM

Crandell, thanks for that input.  I only recently started using Peco Code 83 Insulfrog turnouts.  Early on, I realized that they are power routing, but I have not experienced a shorting problem.  I need to study the locations on my layout where I have placed those turnouts to see why I don't have such problems.

Rich

Alton Junction

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Posted by selector on Thursday, December 26, 2013 11:44 AM

Peco Code 83 Streamline turnouts ARE power-routing, so if you have one on either end of a siding, and you only throw one of them, you'll get a short.  If you want to spare yourself the aggravation of that problem, pick a turnout and leave a gap at the diverging route exit of the turnout.  No need to gap the other end, and in fact that one turnout would now power the siding tracks....although common wisdom would be to add a pair of insurance feeders to those rails between the turnouts.

-Crandell

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Posted by richhotrain on Thursday, December 26, 2013 8:11 AM

Frank, I agree with you.  At this point, a track diagram would clear up his description of his track configuration.  As he first described it, there is no reverse polarity issue.  I like your suggestion of the insulated rail joiner as a diagnostic tool.  If it were a simple passing siding, throwing those points with Insulfrogs should not cause a short because the polarities should match.

How about this? He has four turnouts, two on the far side and two on the near side.  Assuming that only one of the near side turnouts is shorting, move that turnout to the other side and swap the far side turnout to the near side.

Tomcat, forgetting about the spurs for the moment, is this your track plan?  If so, do LH or RH turnouts form the spurs on the far side?

Rich

Alton Junction

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Posted by zstripe on Thursday, December 26, 2013 7:40 AM

Rich,

After giving it some thought, I believe what the OP is calling a passing siding, is not that at all,but a reverse loop in his circle of track. So some sort of track diagram would be extremely helpful, or talk him through using a Red and Blue crayon in the inner and outer circle, to confirm + and - flow of voltage. If He used two left hand turnouts, that would create a reverse loop, to make a passing siding in a circle, he would have to use one left and one right. And then do what I suggested at first.

Frank

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  • From: Sierra Vista, Arizona
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Posted by cacole on Thursday, December 26, 2013 7:27 AM

Peco turnouts are power routing, so when you throw either one individually it is creating the short by feeding power of opposite polarity to the inner rail that diverges from the frog.  

The solution is to insulate the inner rail at either one or both turnouts, or near the center of the siding as already recommended.

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Posted by richhotrain on Thursday, December 26, 2013 4:46 AM

Tomcat,

Is it only one of the two near side turnouts that is causing the short?

If it is, it seems that there is something defective on that turnout.

Rich

Alton Junction

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Posted by zstripe on Thursday, December 26, 2013 12:56 AM

Tomcat,

Those should be power routing turnouts and it sounds to me that if it is a passing siding and you throw the points at one end of the siding for the diverging route, the other turnout is still set for the straight path, thereby creating your short the moment you throw the points. My suggestion is to put one, insulated joiner midway in the siding on the frog rail. Either that throw both turnouts on the passind siding at the same time. With the one insulated though, you can do it manually without creating a short.

Frank

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Posted by tomcat on Thursday, December 26, 2013 12:14 AM
No it's only happening when I throw the points, as it's only a small oval I haven't added feeders there r four points in the oval . 2 on the near side , that opens the main line to the siding. And there is no reversing section. I just have the two wires connected to the track as if it were a stock standard out of the box nce it's the same controllers I use on my main layout at home
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  • From: Dearborn Station
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Posted by richhotrain on Wednesday, December 25, 2013 11:53 PM

Peco Insulfrog turnouts do not need to be gapped unless they are part of a reversing section.  As you described your track configuration, there is no reversing section.  Assuming that you have not crossed a pair of feeders, there should be no shorts on the layout.

Does the short occur when you throw the points or when the loco wheels cross the frog?  If it is when the loco wheels cross the frog, you may need to file the rail a little.

http://railwaybobsmodulebuildingtips.blogspot.com/2011/06/fixing-short-in-peco-insulfrog.html

How many turnouts are on the layout?  How many on the near side?  Is only one turnout affected?

Rich

Alton Junction

  • Member since
    March 2013
  • From: Australia
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Shorting Insulfrog????
Posted by tomcat on Wednesday, December 25, 2013 10:59 PM
Here's one for you all!! I'm away on holidays and to easy the withdrawal symptoms of not having my layout I bought some track with me to try my new locos!
Here's my problem , I've made an oval with a passing siding and a couple of spur lines for parking, I can switch manually the turnouts on one side of the layout but when I throw the near side points the system shuts down (nce) even though they at Insulfrog points do I still need plastic joiners on the frog? If I do why doesn't the short happen on the other turnouts as well? They are insulfrogs so what is happening

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