Insulfrog points DO NOT power rout. The frog is dead which means the closed rout is isolated ( no power) but not power routed.
Electrofrog points means the frog is always alive. When point is changed the power is routed & the polarity is changed at the frog and isolted rail joiners must be used on both frog rails.
As has been suggested, I always isolate the frog rails on all points no matter their religion.
Cheers
Iansa
I pulled out a balky double crossover today and replaced it with a single crossover.
Since I can no longer find Atlas Custom Line #6 turnouts, I made the single crossover with a pair of Peco RH #6 Insulfrog turnouts. As most of us already knew, and contrary to what a few had asserted, there were no shorts and I did not gap any rails. Even with one turnout thrown to the divergent route with the other turnout pointed straight through, there were no shorts.
Just to cover all bases, I initially created a passing siding with the two new Peco Insulfrog turnouts. No gaps, no shorts, same results as the crossover under the same conditions.
Case closed !
Rich
Alton Junction
There is some misinformation on this thread. I have around 40 Peco Insulfrog turnouts(and only Peco insulfrogs) both code 100 and 83 on my DCC layout setup in various configurations with no reverse loops. I do have neither any gaps cut nor any insulated rail joiners. I have multiple power feeders on all sides of the turnouts and not one short no matter which direction the turnouts are thrown. With the insulfrog turnouts no insulated rail joiners are needed unless there is a reverse loop or power districts included.
The downside of gapping the rails downstream of the frog is that you would rely on the points contact with the main rail of the turnout to route power. I opted to file the frog to widen the gap where I had shorts. A bit of a pain but in my eyes worthed.
rrinker Peco switches between correct rail and 'null', no connection, with Insulfrogs. So no, there should not be a short. Unless a wheel happens to tough both rails at the end of the insulated frog. That situtation where people often recommend a dab of nail polish (which eventurally wears off and must be replaced). Adding insulated joiners past the frog actually would stop that.
Peco switches between correct rail and 'null', no connection, with Insulfrogs. So no, there should not be a short. Unless a wheel happens to tough both rails at the end of the insulated frog. That situtation where people often recommend a dab of nail polish (which eventurally wears off and must be replaced). Adding insulated joiners past the frog actually would stop that.
At the very outset of this thread, when I first replied to the OP, I included a link to a web site that illustrates this short at the end of the frog that Randy is referring to. I am including it again so others can visualize the location of the short in that situation.
http://railwaybobsmodulebuildingtips.blogspot.com/2011/06/fixing-short-in-peco-insulfrog.html
Peco switches between correct rail and 'null', no connection, with Insulfrogs. So no, there should not be a short. Unless a wheel happens to tough both rails at the end of the insulated frog. That situtation where people often recommend a dab of nail polish (which eventurally wears off and must be replaced). Adding insulated joiners past the frog actually would stop that. Just sitting there - shouldn;t short out. This is different than other power routing turnouts which set both rails fromt he frog tot he same polarity based on point position, like Electrofrogs.
Still comes down to, gaps will always work, even if in some cases they aren't needed.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Jack W.
zstripe Bagal, Peco insul. turnouts are power routing, so if on a double ended siding,if you only throw one turnout,it will, on a single siding no and I do have experience with Peco turnouts. I just don't prefer them.
Bagal,
Peco insul. turnouts are power routing, so if on a double ended siding,if you only throw one turnout,it will, on a single siding no and I do have experience with Peco turnouts. I just don't prefer them.
Frank, why do you persist with this misinformation. That is simply not correct.
If you throw one Peco Insulfrog to the divergent route on a double ended siding, while the Peco Insulfrog on the other end of the double ended siding remains pointed at the straight through route, there will not be a short.
Frank
Edit: If I recall correctly, one of the OP's turnouts was a Electro frog and that was the problem to begin with.
zstripe Bagal, Look at the above reply again, with only one turnout to the passing siding thrown to diverging route and the other set to through route, it will result in a short. It would do the same thing on a single crossover, if only one turnout was set for diverging and the other straight. Frank
Look at the above reply again, with only one turnout to the passing siding thrown to diverging route and the other set to through route, it will result in a short. It would do the same thing on a single crossover, if only one turnout was set for diverging and the other straight.
Do you have any actual experience with Peco turnouts? Or are you thinking about other makes of power routing turnouts which may act as you explain?
Peco Insulfrog turnouts are "switched" so that only the track for which the blades are set is electrically alive. However they do not short out as you claim.
Bagal
tomcatHere's my problem , I've made an oval with a passing siding and a couple of spur lines for parking, I can switch manually the turnouts on one side of the layout but when I throw the near side points the system shuts down (nce) even though they at Insulfrog points do I still need plastic joiners on the frog? If I do why doesn't the short happen on the other turnouts as well? They are insulfrogs so what is happening
With over 800 views, there is obviously a lot of interest in this thread and in the specific issue. So, let's get back to basics.
Aside from the fact that the OP mistakenly used an Electrofrog to form part of the passing siding, the original issue seemed to be, why would a passing siding formed with a LH Peco Insulfrog and a RH Peco Insulfrog cause a short and shut down the DCC layout when one set of point rails are thrown to the divergent route while the other set of point rails remain set to the straight through route? Answer: It wouldn't short the system.
The reason that a short was created was because the other turnout was an Electrofrog turnout. Let's take a closer look at the Insulfrog and the Electrofrog and the differences between the two turnouts. Both types of turnout are power routing, and we can examine what that means. But, first, consider the difference between the two turnouts.
The Insulfrog turnout has a plastic frog, and there is no way to power it. And, the Insulfrog is self-isolating, so there is no reason to gap it because it already is gapped.
The Electrofrog, on the other hand, is a metal frog, and it is powered. The Electrofrog turnout is jumpered so that the rails need not be cut to create gaps. Instead, the jumpers are cut to create the gaps. And, gaps must be cut into the Electrofrog to avoid shorts because the frog is live.
So, the only real difference between the Insulfrog and the Electrofrog is the frog itself, powered on the Electrofrog, unpowered on the Insulfrog. Why would you want a powered frog? To avoid stalls on short wheel base locos.
Now, let's look at the power routing feature of the Insulfrog. Terminology is important here, so take a look at the illustrated turnout on this site:
http://www.dccwiki.com/Turnout
The stock rails on an Insulfrog are always powered. The closure (point) rails take their power from the stock rails. The divergent frog rail is powered by the closure (point) rail. What does all this mean? It means that one of the divergent rails, the stock rail, is always powered. But, the other divergent rail, the frog rail, is only powered if the closure (point) rails are thrown to the divergent route. For that reason, unless both turnouts are set to the divergent route, the passing siding will be unpowered unless it has its own feeders.
But, it does not mean that a short will occur if only one turnout is set to the divergent route. And, why would it? If you think about it, there is no reverse polarity, so there is nothing to short.
The same is true for the creation of a crossover formed by two LH Insulfrogs or two RH Insulfrogs. There is no need for any gaps, and the crossover will not short if only one turnout is set to the divergent route. Again, why would it? There is no reverse polarity. Of course, on a crossover, both turnouts should be set to the divergent route to avoid a derailment.
There seems to be a widespread misunderstanding of the Insulfrog, not because of the unpowered frog, but because of the power routing feature. There have been other threads on this forum that mistakenly suggest that a passing siding formed with Insulfrogs is prone to shorting, but that simply is not the case.
There's really not that much of a difference in the wiring, solid wiring is solid wiring, DC or DCC.
Insulated frog, non-power routing turnouts, like Atlas, I do just the opposite - I put feeders on all 3 legs, no insualted joiners or gaps - seems to make them foolproof, I installed wires to power the frogs but never connected them, because even my smallest locos can creep over the turnouts. When you add power routing to the mix, insulated frog or not, I'm not sure how you can otherwise avoid a potential short in any double-ended siding without gaps. And solid frog turnouts - gaps are absolutely required at the frog end, otherwise you have an instant short regardless of how the points are lined.
Extra gaps won't hurt anything - always gap, it will always work, regardless of turnout type.
Michael,
With all due respect, I have been in the HO part of the hobby for the better part of 62 years, my current layout, is my sixth and final in my life time anyway and after 62 yrs if I don't know how to wire a DC/DCC layout, fix an engine, coupler ETC. I must have a mental problem. Current layout I say is 25x40, but in actual size, it is 121/2x40x121/2 and wiring for DC and DCC is the same except for the BUSS, in effect less wiring. DCC controls with the decoder control the motor functions, DC controls the track, to the motor.
Frank,
I'm sure you mean well. But why are you giving advice for things you don't have, or have never experienced? If you have a DC layout, how in the world can you give people advice on something you don't have?
It sure seems like a lot of your posts go something like this. "Well I don't have this, or that, but what you need to do is is this....".
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
cacole When wiring anything on a layout involving a turnout, regardless of brand, I always insulate both rails diverging from the frog and provide separate feeder wires beyond the frog. That has proven to be an absolute foolproof method on both a large club layout and my home layout.
When wiring anything on a layout involving a turnout, regardless of brand, I always insulate both rails diverging from the frog and provide separate feeder wires beyond the frog. That has proven to be an absolute foolproof method on both a large club layout and my home layout.
It is foolproof, but unnecessary in many cases, especially with DCC so long as the turnouts are truly "DCC Friendly". I say that because a truly DCC Friendly turnout is gapped by the manufacturer so putting in your own gaps on such turnouts is redundant.
I don't gap my turnouts except in the case of reversing sections. But I do add feeders at every end of every turnout because the turnout is gapped. So, on a typical turnout, that means three sets of feeders.
That's exactly how my 3cab control layout is wired with 45 blocks,for the past 25 years without any problem's at all, with a mix of Atlas and real Shinohara turnouts. To switch from DC to DCC, is just a matter of switching the power supplies and have 45 power districts. These conversations have been going on for years, basically just because the use of two words, ''short'' and ''open'' or lack of knowledge, of the two.
AHA! I knew it was an elecrofrog he was using. That explains the issue perfectly.
tomcat, here is my suggestion. Make sure that the two turnouts that form the passing siding are Insulfrogs. That way, you don't have to gap any rails because the Insulfrog is self-isolating. No short should occur even if you only throw one set of points, so long as both turnouts are Insulfrogs.
But, the Insulfrogs, just like the Electrofrogs, are power routing which means that the point rails get their power from the stock rails. So, depending upon which way the point rails are thrown, without feeders you may have unpowered sections of stock. That's because the Insulfrogs are self-isolating. So, you need to add feeders to the passing siding or the siding will be dead when the point rails are set on the straight through route.
You can use that Electrofrog on one of your spurs, but there you will need rail gaps and feeders.
You can mix an Electrofrog with an Insulfrog to form the passing siding, but the rail gapping and wiring gets more complicated.
I am using Power Cab, and i do believe it is a defective turnout, In regards to rail gaps I have them on the frog rails on each end of the siding and i just realised that 1 of the other points at the end of the siding is infact an electrofrog !!! I really didntt know ,In my haste to get the track running i overlooked it.my lack of knowledge has been confusing for all of you and im so sorry,
so to recap, gaps at the frog rails on both turnouts in the siding
As for feeders none as the oval is so small ,there is just the two wires coming from the UTP panel to the track
so does it matter that i have used 1 electrofrog and 1 insulfrog turnout? I dont think it matters,
I do know that there was a power issue on the insulfrog ,when i throw the point for the siding the loco on the track lost power and sound but the system didnt short or reboot ,so i just added 2 small jumper wires from the stock rails to the switch rails ONLY on the insulfrog and there was no power issue
I hope that made it a bit more understanding Rich Sorry again my friend
tomcat, some of your terminology is confusing, but it sure sounds like you have a defective turnout. Or, it is an Electrofrog. Are you sure that it is an Insulfrog?
At this point, it is difficult to visualize what you have done regarding rail gaps, feeders (number and location).
I would still be interested in what would happen if you pulled out that turnout and put another in its place.
Just out of curiosity, what is the NCE system that you are operating? Is it a Power Cab?
Lots of questions, too few answers.
After gapping the inner rails on the frogs I illuminated the short issue and then found when I switched the points I lost power to the track, ????? Not a short as the system didn't shut down or reboot, I just lost sound and power to the loco on the track. I then removed the point in question and didn't trust the frog wire underneath , so I added jumper wires from the stock rails to the switch and have solved all problems ,, I don't know how or why this happened but now I can throw the points for the siding and there is no short and I still have power , go figure
While I am not about to run out and buy the track necessary to test this out, I remain skeptical. A lot of knowledgeable and experienced modelers say otherwise. Can someone prove us skeptics wrong?
Another thing to consider is feeder wires. The OP said that he only ran one pair of feeders to the entire layout. Peco Insulfrogs really need feeders on every end of every turnout to perform properly. Once the OP added insulated rail joiners, did he add feeders? Because now he has created an unpowered passing siding. Dunno.
This is very odd. Peco code 83 insulfrogs do not need insulated joiners except in reversing sections.
I have installed 135 pecos now, including several passing sidings and never needed gaps, and I don't get any shorts.
I think the OP has a faulty turnout.
Peco insul-frog turnouts are power routing, so no power goes to the route not selected. In the OP's case with the passing siding, when he manually switched the points, that diverging rail became positive,but the other switch was still set for the straight route, which was negative, thereby creating the short. I said positive and negative for clairty, could have been, negative to positive. In any event. If he had electric switch machines that threw them both at the same time, that may not have happened,but it is still safer to gap at least one rail. Although the frog is dead, there are still jumpers before and after the frog.
I am not an expert on Peco turnouts, having only a few of them on my layout, and I don't have two spare Insulfrogs to test a passing siding, but I am having a hard time accepting the fact that the rails need to be gapped to prevent a short in the current situation.
The Insulfrog frog is dead, and the turnout itself is electrically self-isolating, so a short should not occur. I wonder if the OP had an Electrofrog in there and didn't realize it. Or, the Insulfrog was defective in some way. I could be wrong but.....
I posed this question on the Wiring for DCC forum, and the consensus there was that no short should occur with the Insulfrogs on both ends of the passing siding regardless of how the point rails are thrown.
I don't understand why he had to gap the rails for a siding? I have 27 Peco insulfrogs on my layout. I have multiple sidings, cross-overs, etc. The only place I have ever had to gap the rails is my reversing section.
Weird?