Peco Insulfrog turnouts do not need to be gapped unless they are part of a reversing section. As you described your track configuration, there is no reversing section. Assuming that you have not crossed a pair of feeders, there should be no shorts on the layout.
Does the short occur when you throw the points or when the loco wheels cross the frog? If it is when the loco wheels cross the frog, you may need to file the rail a little.
http://railwaybobsmodulebuildingtips.blogspot.com/2011/06/fixing-short-in-peco-insulfrog.html
How many turnouts are on the layout? How many on the near side? Is only one turnout affected?
Rich
Alton Junction
Tomcat,
Those should be power routing turnouts and it sounds to me that if it is a passing siding and you throw the points at one end of the siding for the diverging route, the other turnout is still set for the straight path, thereby creating your short the moment you throw the points. My suggestion is to put one, insulated joiner midway in the siding on the frog rail. Either that throw both turnouts on the passind siding at the same time. With the one insulated though, you can do it manually without creating a short.
Frank
Is it only one of the two near side turnouts that is causing the short?
If it is, it seems that there is something defective on that turnout.
Peco turnouts are power routing, so when you throw either one individually it is creating the short by feeding power of opposite polarity to the inner rail that diverges from the frog.
The solution is to insulate the inner rail at either one or both turnouts, or near the center of the siding as already recommended.
Rich,
After giving it some thought, I believe what the OP is calling a passing siding, is not that at all,but a reverse loop in his circle of track. So some sort of track diagram would be extremely helpful, or talk him through using a Red and Blue crayon in the inner and outer circle, to confirm + and - flow of voltage. If He used two left hand turnouts, that would create a reverse loop, to make a passing siding in a circle, he would have to use one left and one right. And then do what I suggested at first.
Frank, I agree with you. At this point, a track diagram would clear up his description of his track configuration. As he first described it, there is no reverse polarity issue. I like your suggestion of the insulated rail joiner as a diagnostic tool. If it were a simple passing siding, throwing those points with Insulfrogs should not cause a short because the polarities should match.
How about this? He has four turnouts, two on the far side and two on the near side. Assuming that only one of the near side turnouts is shorting, move that turnout to the other side and swap the far side turnout to the near side.
Tomcat, forgetting about the spurs for the moment, is this your track plan? If so, do LH or RH turnouts form the spurs on the far side?
Peco Code 83 Streamline turnouts ARE power-routing, so if you have one on either end of a siding, and you only throw one of them, you'll get a short. If you want to spare yourself the aggravation of that problem, pick a turnout and leave a gap at the diverging route exit of the turnout. No need to gap the other end, and in fact that one turnout would now power the siding tracks....although common wisdom would be to add a pair of insurance feeders to those rails between the turnouts.
-Crandell
Crandell, thanks for that input. I only recently started using Peco Code 83 Insulfrog turnouts. Early on, I realized that they are power routing, but I have not experienced a shorting problem. I need to study the locations on my layout where I have placed those turnouts to see why I don't have such problems.
I said that in my first reply and Cacole also said it.
It still is not clear exactly what the OP has as a track plan and exactly which turnout(s) cause the problem and under what condition.
Well the OP has two possibility's of the problem, so I guess we will have to wait to hear from him.
Glad you got it resolved. ''Have Fun''.
I don't understand why he had to gap the rails for a siding? I have 27 Peco insulfrogs on my layout. I have multiple sidings, cross-overs, etc. The only place I have ever had to gap the rails is my reversing section.
Weird?
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
I am not an expert on Peco turnouts, having only a few of them on my layout, and I don't have two spare Insulfrogs to test a passing siding, but I am having a hard time accepting the fact that the rails need to be gapped to prevent a short in the current situation.
The Insulfrog frog is dead, and the turnout itself is electrically self-isolating, so a short should not occur. I wonder if the OP had an Electrofrog in there and didn't realize it. Or, the Insulfrog was defective in some way. I could be wrong but.....
I posed this question on the Wiring for DCC forum, and the consensus there was that no short should occur with the Insulfrogs on both ends of the passing siding regardless of how the point rails are thrown.
Peco insul-frog turnouts are power routing, so no power goes to the route not selected. In the OP's case with the passing siding, when he manually switched the points, that diverging rail became positive,but the other switch was still set for the straight route, which was negative, thereby creating the short. I said positive and negative for clairty, could have been, negative to positive. In any event. If he had electric switch machines that threw them both at the same time, that may not have happened,but it is still safer to gap at least one rail. Although the frog is dead, there are still jumpers before and after the frog.
This is very odd. Peco code 83 insulfrogs do not need insulated joiners except in reversing sections.
I have installed 135 pecos now, including several passing sidings and never needed gaps, and I don't get any shorts.
I think the OP has a faulty turnout.
Another thing to consider is feeder wires. The OP said that he only ran one pair of feeders to the entire layout. Peco Insulfrogs really need feeders on every end of every turnout to perform properly. Once the OP added insulated rail joiners, did he add feeders? Because now he has created an unpowered passing siding. Dunno.
Bagal,
Look at the above reply again, with only one turnout to the passing siding thrown to diverging route and the other set to through route, it will result in a short. It would do the same thing on a single crossover, if only one turnout was set for diverging and the other straight.
While I am not about to run out and buy the track necessary to test this out, I remain skeptical. A lot of knowledgeable and experienced modelers say otherwise. Can someone prove us skeptics wrong?
After gapping the inner rails on the frogs I illuminated the short issue and then found when I switched the points I lost power to the track, ????? Not a short as the system didn't shut down or reboot, I just lost sound and power to the loco on the track. I then removed the point in question and didn't trust the frog wire underneath , so I added jumper wires from the stock rails to the switch and have solved all problems ,, I don't know how or why this happened but now I can throw the points for the siding and there is no short and I still have power , go figure
tomcat, some of your terminology is confusing, but it sure sounds like you have a defective turnout. Or, it is an Electrofrog. Are you sure that it is an Insulfrog?
At this point, it is difficult to visualize what you have done regarding rail gaps, feeders (number and location).
I would still be interested in what would happen if you pulled out that turnout and put another in its place.
Just out of curiosity, what is the NCE system that you are operating? Is it a Power Cab?
Lots of questions, too few answers.
I am using Power Cab, and i do believe it is a defective turnout, In regards to rail gaps I have them on the frog rails on each end of the siding and i just realised that 1 of the other points at the end of the siding is infact an electrofrog !!! I really didntt know ,In my haste to get the track running i overlooked it.my lack of knowledge has been confusing for all of you and im so sorry,
so to recap, gaps at the frog rails on both turnouts in the siding
As for feeders none as the oval is so small ,there is just the two wires coming from the UTP panel to the track
so does it matter that i have used 1 electrofrog and 1 insulfrog turnout? I dont think it matters,
I do know that there was a power issue on the insulfrog ,when i throw the point for the siding the loco on the track lost power and sound but the system didnt short or reboot ,so i just added 2 small jumper wires from the stock rails to the switch rails ONLY on the insulfrog and there was no power issue
I hope that made it a bit more understanding Rich Sorry again my friend
tomcat, here is my suggestion. Make sure that the two turnouts that form the passing siding are Insulfrogs. That way, you don't have to gap any rails because the Insulfrog is self-isolating. No short should occur even if you only throw one set of points, so long as both turnouts are Insulfrogs.
But, the Insulfrogs, just like the Electrofrogs, are power routing which means that the point rails get their power from the stock rails. So, depending upon which way the point rails are thrown, without feeders you may have unpowered sections of stock. That's because the Insulfrogs are self-isolating. So, you need to add feeders to the passing siding or the siding will be dead when the point rails are set on the straight through route.
You can use that Electrofrog on one of your spurs, but there you will need rail gaps and feeders.
You can mix an Electrofrog with an Insulfrog to form the passing siding, but the rail gapping and wiring gets more complicated.
When wiring anything on a layout involving a turnout, regardless of brand, I always insulate both rails diverging from the frog and provide separate feeder wires beyond the frog. That has proven to be an absolute foolproof method on both a large club layout and my home layout.
Jack W.
AHA! I knew it was an elecrofrog he was using. That explains the issue perfectly.