He probably found the zephyr's throttle assigned after all , Oh yeah dirth track.
Anyhow if the track is that dirty it would be a agood idea to run an abrasive over it like a brite boy or some 600 grit sand paper before using alcohol. Might be some caked on dirt that needs a little help.
Springfield PA
davidmbedard So is the OP quitting? Or has he decided to remain in the hobby until the next "issue" arises? And just so there is no confusion, DCC > DC. David B
So is the OP quitting? Or has he decided to remain in the hobby until the next "issue" arises?
And just so there is no confusion, DCC > DC.
David B
LOL
David, I am starting to like you.
As Ray Liotta said to Joe Pesci in the restaurant scene in Goodfellas, "You're a funny guy ! "
Rich
Alton Junction
Javelina,Wow, you come acrosss just a little strong here...
You said, "I've an excellent suggestion. It's called DC."
That's your excellent suggestion? Yeah, for someone who only wants to run loco/train at a time. The moment one wants to add more than one loco/train to the layout, DC is not so excellent.
"That way you can go back to model railroading and stop trying to be a field test subject for the DCC manufacturers."
Who says DCC isn't model railroading? It's simply a part of this hobby, just like benchwork, scenery, trackwork, or model building. Just because you don't enjoy model electronics doesn't mean that it's not part of model railroading. Electronics, in one form or another, has been a part of our hobby for well over 100 years. DC or DCC, Dynatrol or block control, it's all model railroading if it makes the trains run.
"I'm completely serious here. If you look at the amount of frustration displayed by the denizens of the "electronics and DCC" forum column you'll discover the greatest roadblock to happy modeling I've ever seen."
I think the "greatest roadblock to happy modeling" is unique to the individual. Some people hate woodworking. Others hate laying track. Still others hate wiring. For many, it's the lack of funds or the high prices of various things. For someone to say that DCC is the "greatest roadblock", they would have to know the feelings of every model railroader.
"I realize I'm in the extreme minority here and fully expect to be flamed by the DCC proponents but it's my feeling that DCC is the greatest load of bull ever inflicted on this hobby."
Flamed? No. One's opinions can be debated without flames. For example, the idea that DCC is a "load of bull." On my home layout that's 25' x 50', I have a Digitrax Zephyr, three DT400R throttles and a UR91 radio receiver. I regularly run my layout with 3 or 4 people on my double track mainline, and all I have is a pair of 14AWG wires running for 200 feet in one large block and 200' of phone cable for throttle plug-ins. I can control my own helpers that cut off on the fly, I can park engines wherever they fit in the terminals, I can have two switchers working on the same cut of cars, and I can speed match all my engines so they run together (try any of that with DC). I rarely have problems with my DCC system because I have been a user of DCC for more than 12 years at my club. I'm experienced enough to do my own trouble shooting and not to go into a button-pushing panic when something unexpected happens. Where's the bull?
"My LHS is populated by two types. The one type runs DC on the outer tracks, watches their trains run and have fun."
I find that running the trains in endless circles to be incredibly dull and about as much "anti-fun" as I can stand.
"The DCC'ers are busy staring at their little TV remotes, punching buttons and wondering why things don't do what they're supposed to, all the while expounding the fantastic capabilities of DCC while barely being able to access those theoretical features."
Did you know that you can actually use a real TV remote on a Digitrax system? Yep, no lie. They have infrared controllers, and if you buy one of those all-in-one TV/VCR/DVD remotes, you can run trains with it. Anyways... It seems like all you've seen are those who are new to DCC and are understandably confused. There is a learning curve, just like when you had to learn how to use a computer and post online here at the MR Forum. No one is an expert when they are a rookie.
"Think about the fun you could have had Monday model railroading instead of troubleshooting."
Right, like DC never has any troubleshooting requirements. Ha! At my old club, our layout was DC block control built in 1953 and in use until 1998. In the early-1990's, the chairman of our Narrow Gauge committee decided to remove a siding on the HOn3 part of the layout. When doing so, he cut the wires that led to the Narrow Gauge block. He also knocked out the entire mainline division because one of the wires he cut was the common return for the entire RR. It took a couple days to find that one. And that's not getting into how blocks would bleed into other blocks, the joys of floating blocks, and the absolute thrill of finding and replacing dead DC relays. Puh-leeze. DC layouts can be a nighmare to troubleshoot because each one is totally unique. At least with DCC, the chances are that someone has an answer for your problem. With DC, you're on your own.
For example, here's some pics, front and back, of Cab 7 that was removed from my old club's layout. Care to troubleshoot this? And we had 8 of these mainline cabs, plus 8 yard cabs."Would Allen, Ellison, Armstrong et al have put up with this baloney? Would they have? I think not."
I am amazed that you know the thoughts and feelings of great model railroaders that have passed away."It's not that they were opposed to advancements in the hobby but they were practical men who were after satisfying model railroading, not gimmicks."
Yeah, I guess they'd never have something like a dinosaur in harness switching cars around... Let me put it this way; our entire hobby is a "gimmick" to some people.
"For all the DCC folks out there, your'e welcome to it. I'm just an iconoclast with an old pickup that can be repaired instead of disposed of."
And I'm sure that old pick-up truck is less comfortable, less effecient, and less safe than a new one with a computer in it. BTW, if you dislike technology so much, then how are you posting here?Paul A. Cutler III
Javelina I've an excellent suggestion. It's called DC. That way you can go back to model railroading and stop trying to be a field test subject for the DCC manufacturers. I'm completely serious here. If you look at the amount of frustration displayed by the denizens of the "electronics and DCC" forum column you'll discover the greatest roadblock to happy modeling I've ever seen. I realize I'm in the extreme minority here and fully expect to be flamed by the DCC proponents but it's my feeling that DCC is the greatest load of bull ever inflicted on this hobby. My LHS is populated by two types. The one type runs DC on the outer tracks, watches their trains run and have fun. The DCC'ers are busy staring at their little TV remotes, punching buttons and wondering why things don't do what they're supposed to, all the while expounding the fantastic capabilities of DCC while barely being able to access those theoretical features. Think about the fun you could have had Monday model railroading instead of troubleshooting. Would Allen, Ellison, Armstrong et al have put up with this baloney? Would they have? I think not. It's not that they were opposed to advancements in the hobby but they were practical men who were after satisfying model railroading, not gimmicks. For all the DCC folks out there, your'e welcome to it. I'm just an iconoclast with an old pickup that can be repaired instead of disposed of. Respectfully, Lou
I've an excellent suggestion. It's called DC. That way you can go back to model railroading and stop trying to be a field test subject for the DCC manufacturers. I'm completely serious here. If you look at the amount of frustration displayed by the denizens of the "electronics and DCC" forum column you'll discover the greatest roadblock to happy modeling I've ever seen. I realize I'm in the extreme minority here and fully expect to be flamed by the DCC proponents but it's my feeling that DCC is the greatest load of bull ever inflicted on this hobby. My LHS is populated by two types. The one type runs DC on the outer tracks, watches their trains run and have fun. The DCC'ers are busy staring at their little TV remotes, punching buttons and wondering why things don't do what they're supposed to, all the while expounding the fantastic capabilities of DCC while barely being able to access those theoretical features. Think about the fun you could have had Monday model railroading instead of troubleshooting. Would Allen, Ellison, Armstrong et al have put up with this baloney? Would they have? I think not. It's not that they were opposed to advancements in the hobby but they were practical men who were after satisfying model railroading, not gimmicks. For all the DCC folks out there, your'e welcome to it. I'm just an iconoclast with an old pickup that can be repaired instead of disposed of.
Respectfully,
Lou
Yeah, and while we're at it let's go back to using candles, slide rules, pad and paper and carrier pigeons.
Who needs technology anyway?
Just a quick word about track cleaning. Everyone I know has to clean track. All of the people in my operating group talk about track cleaning on a regular basis. Most of the layouts are at least 10 years old. Factors include:
Age of the layout - new track runs great for a couple of years at least. I ran my staging tracks for three years without a single cleaning. They are now old enough to need cleaning.
Scenery - Painting the track and ballasting will definitely test your cleaning skills. The heavier the application of material, the longer it takes to completely clean up -sometimes several months to get all the crud off of a heavily dirted section of track. Any scenery work in the room using plaster or dirt will leave residue on the track, even track not in the area where work is being done.
Layout room environment - Some layouts are in garages and unfinished basements. Dust from the cement floor, etc can add to the dirt factor.
Traffic frequency - How much do you run trains and what degree of slow speed ops do you want? The more the layout is regularly operated, the cleaner the track seems to stay. If you want super slow, creeping, then track has to be cleaner to get rid of all those momentary loss of contact spots that won't be noticed at higher speeds.
Equipment - Modern diesels and large steam will run on very dirty track. Small wheel base steam/diesels and small brass is much more finicky due to the lack of all wheel pick up (brass) and smaller track contact area (yeah you can add more pick ups to brass, but there are limits to how well this works on dirty track). Ex: My cab forward runs over dirty track that chokes my brass 2-6-0's.
All together now - No one I know has found the magic cleaning bullet. Just about every method that is not clearly destructive to the track (sanding etc) has been tried and each of the people in our group has their own routines including - CMX car (alcohol, lacquer thinner, Acetone), Aztec car, Centerline car, vacuuming, crc cleaner , clipper oil, no ox, dragger cars, brite boy (only for heavy crud), gleaming, all metal wheels and several others that escape me now
The common thread here is that over time, no is able to skate on this issue......
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
I wonder if it isn't something to do with excessive lubrication. Some people mistakenly lube their rolling stock truck journals when the judicious use of a truck tuner/ream would have provided relief. Or, people are trying the clipper oil and other lubes on their rails thinking it will solve a range of problems, and if there is any arcing happening along the rails, poof...instant carbon goop.
Crandell
So, is the problem fixed? Was dirty track the whole issue?
I was going to suggest putting another engine on the track nearby, and turning on the headlight. Then, run the Atlas engine and watch the other engine's headlight. When the Atlas stops, does the other headlight go out? If so, there's a short and the Zephyr is shutting down. In all likelihood, it's a loose wire or contact in the Atlas which is shorting. If the other light stays on, it's a loss of power to the Atlas. It could be dirty track or wheels, or it could be once again a loose wire.
Does this problem happen all over, or only at certain spots on the layout? Is is pecuiliar to turnouts by any chance? You could have a loose wire so that the engine is only getting power from one truck. Most of the time, it's fine, but once in a while that truck goes over a dead spot and the engine stops.
As for dirty track, spend that $120 for a CMX car. I use lacquer thinner in mine. I clean my track about 3 times a year. It's an easy job. Use only nickel-silver track.. (Nobody asked, so I thought I'd at least mention it.) Avoid plastic wheels on rolling stock, although I still have quite a few of those in my fleet which I'll change over eventually. Clean your engine wheels with a paper towel, wet with alcohol and placed across the track. Run the engine over the towel and hold it to spin the front wheels while the rear truck picks up power, and then do the other end. Again, fast, easy and effective.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
After all this, dirty track? I am still trying to figure out what people do to make their track SO dirty. What sort of track are you using? I NEVER have to clean my track. I rarely think of that as an issue, especially as the OP indicated he DID clean the track
As for the anti-DCC comment - if the track is THAT dirty, it wouldn't have worked with DC power either. This clearly is not a DCC 'problem'
ANd since there is another thread about a 'problem' with DCC using an MTH loco - I will head off the anti-DCC comments by saying that person's problem is ALSO not an issue with DCC but with MTH's stubborn insistence on the superiority of their proprietary DCS system which is only marginally compatible with DCC.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Javelina David, You're absolutely correct, but my comments were meant to suggest that for some people DCC is or can be the point of diminishing returns on their enjoyment. It's just that I feel that there's a tendency today to suggest that DCC is somehow superior to straight DC because of the increased possibilities of DCC without considering the drawbacks of additional technology to master. I believe scratchbuilding structures is superior in many ways to "kitbashing", but for some, the effort to learn the required techniques might simply push the balance from "this is fun" to "this is a PITA". My own experience of learning to program CNC machine tools was frustrating to say the least, but if I hadn't had to do it to make money, I likely wouldn't have. You, Randy Rinker and others are clearly up on the curve but for many, that hill might be steep enough to stifle their enthusiasm for the hobby. Frustration and hobby are two words that should never be found together in the same sentence. Lou
David,
You're absolutely correct, but my comments were meant to suggest that for some people DCC is or can be the point of diminishing returns on their enjoyment. It's just that I feel that there's a tendency today to suggest that DCC is somehow superior to straight DC because of the increased possibilities of DCC without considering the drawbacks of additional technology to master. I believe scratchbuilding structures is superior in many ways to "kitbashing", but for some, the effort to learn the required techniques might simply push the balance from "this is fun" to "this is a PITA". My own experience of learning to program CNC machine tools was frustrating to say the least, but if I hadn't had to do it to make money, I likely wouldn't have. You, Randy Rinker and others are clearly up on the curve but for many, that hill might be steep enough to stifle their enthusiasm for the hobby. Frustration and hobby are two words that should never be found together in the same sentence.
I got news for you, Lou, there is plenty of frustration in this hobby for most of us just as there is in any worthwhile endeavor including my other passion, golf.
As for your views on DCC, I bet you probably still drive a 1951 Chevy that you tune up yourself. LOL
Wait a minute !
Am I reading this thread correctly?
It took me about 5 minutes to read from beginning to end.
The OP starts out ready to quit the hobby, then he blames the engine that used to run fine, then it is his double throttle usage on a Digitrax system (which wouldn't happen had he purchased an NCE system instead), then there is still an unsolvable problem after he spends all day cleaning his track.
Finally, the solution? Dirty wheels? For once, I agree with David B. LOL
Incidentally, I use denatured alcohol to clean the rails. If you use Intermountain metal wheels on your rolling stock, you won't have these problems.
RoadieWhat is a good way to clean tracks by hand and also what is a good track cleaning car without going to 120.00 Thanks for
Mineral spirts and a clean tee shirt is all you need. Get it at Walmart or some place cheap. A quart should only be a few bucks and last a long time. Alcohol leaves the track too dry which casues sparking. Sparking casues pits in the track for the gunk to build up in and the actually casues (in part) the black gunt inthe first palce. After a good cleaning look up either Gleaming or my favorite, No Ox (from Wlathers or other places)
ratled
Modeling the Klamath River area in HO on a proto-lanced sub of the SP “The State of Jefferson Line”
Javelina David, You're absolutely correct, but my comments were meant to suggest that for some people DCC is or can be the point of diminishing returns on their enjoyment. ...
You're absolutely correct, but my comments were meant to suggest that for some people DCC is or can be the point of diminishing returns on their enjoyment.
...
Bold prinit mine. You didn't come across that way at all in your first comment. You were emphatic and inclusive to the point of stating that DCC was the greatest threat and ripoff ever perpetrated on the hobby. Kind of hyperbolic when I use my own words, but they are no moreso than yours. See for yourself.
Javelina It's just that I feel that there's a tendency today to suggest that DCC is somehow superior to straight DC because of the increased possibilities of DCC without considering the drawbacks of additional technology to master....
It's just that I feel that there's a tendency today to suggest that DCC is somehow superior to straight DC because of the increased possibilities of DCC without considering the drawbacks of additional technology to master....
Would you be so kind as to point out in any of the responses after the initial complaint where any of this was suggested in this thread? If there is even one, it escapes me.
My point is that your rant has no place in this thread. It isn't about how you feel about DCC, nor about any generalizations you hope will stick to the subject. The request for advice and help was very specific...not needing sweeping generalizations which, I hope, you now understand are misplaced.
LOL dirty track huh. Glad you figured it out. I never use alcohol to clean my track, I always use paint thinner with rags. That's the only sure way of getting the track nice and clean.
Then go and pick up some spray "electrical cleaner" at the auto parts store. Spray it on a rag and wipe it down using on old rag also. Using this process, I only have to do this twice a year.
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
Went back and look at the wheels which I just cleaned about a hour ago they were dirty again
Obviously my track clean skill have a lot to be desired I used Alcohol and rags
What is a good way to clean tracks by hand and also what is a good track cleaning car without going to 120.00 Thanks for all you help
Two more things not mentioned worthy to try
1) do other engines work well on this setup?
2) take it to the LHS test track or other layout- does the problem loco run the same there as your layout?
Running O's is overload - something drawing more than 2.5 amps, if your Zephyr is the original one, or 3 ams if it's the Zephyr Xtra.
Iave you tried hooking a single pice of track to the track terminals ont he Zephyr, to elmininate the layout?
When it stops and starts, does the headlight stya on, or go out? If it stays on, that's almost a sure sign that it is the double throttle problem. If it goes out, you've lost power somewhere. What about other locos, do they work OK?
Yes to all the suggestions I have tried it on a separate track still the same
It is not the the two throttles I am aware of that I have even reset both the zephyr and the DT 402 to factory with no change it has to be the loco
When this first started I through I had two many locos in the system I was getting Running zero's on the Zephyr but after cleaning both track and loco's that pretty much stopped.
Any help will be appreciated..
My Zephyr is buried under the layout so I never use the built in throttle, so if I ever get the same loco on my DT400 and DT402 nothing happens other than the unused one clicking as I change sppeeds - but I too am used to just hitting Loco,Exit when I'm done that it rarely ever happens. If there's one useful feature that could be added it would be an option to set the system so that all selected locos (but maybe not consists - so make it TWO OpSw values) are purged when the power is shut off. Some peopel would I'm sure hate that but I see no big deal in quickly selecting a loco to run at the start of each new session. Would prevent slot fulls from undispatched locos, too.
Pretty sure it could be done with a JMRI script, just have it purge each slot. But I don;t always turn on the computer. Plus, other than the time I deliberately kept selecting more locos, I've never actually gotta a FULL error on my Zephyr. I ran it up on purpose to see if it said FULL after 10 or 12 (it's 12).
Good thought there Randy, I am so used to dispatching that I did not think of the simple possibility.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
You have the loco's address selected on 2 throttles at once, most likely the DT402 and the Zephyr console. That's ALL that's wrong, and real easy to fix. Select the loco ont he Zephyr, make sure the speed is at stop and the brake lever is in the brake position. Then press Loco, then hit Exit. This will properly dispatch the loco from the Zephyr's throttle. Try again with the DT402. When done running, press Loco, Exit after setting the speed to stop. This will keep the loco address from accidently being selected on two throttles.
WHat's happenign is you are trying to make it move with the DT402 but the Zephyr throttle is saying stop, or is set for a slower speed. The poteniometer wins so the loco stops. On the next command, the DT402 again says run at speed step 50 for example. Then the Zephyr says stop - over and over.
This is all that is wrong with your loco and your system. It's not the end of the world, it's not broken, and it's a super easy fix.
-_Randy
Hmm, well there are a few things, but I think we need a bit more information to narrow down what is happening.
Perhaps you can describe a bit more the nature of the starting and shutting down? The loco starts to move with associated sounds and then stops dead, no movement? Does the sound stop as well? When it starts again does the sound start up again? Do you have to adjust the throttle to get it to start up again, or does it just do it?
Does it behave in the same way all over you layout or is this location specific?
Are there any indications on the command station at the time of the stopping that there is any kind of a short occuring?
From your posting it is clear that you believe the issue to be related to the locomotive rather than the track or the DCC system?
Roadie,
Does this happen on all parts of your layout? Does it happen with any other locomotives? Are you sure your system isn't resetting?
If you've cleaned the track, check of shorts. With the onset of warm weather, you may have a gap that is closing up on you.
Just a suggestion, Roadie. I would try hooking up your Zephyr to a short section of track (apart from you layout) in order to test your locomotive. That way you can eliminate whether the locomotive is really the problem or not.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Just bought a New but older Atlas Gold QSI Sound
Worked great for about a week payed 200.00 for it what a fool.
My problem is when I start up the throttle it start then shuts down then starts then shuts down you get the picture I through it was dirty cleaned all contact points a dozen times didn't make any difference I cleaned my track all day Monday didn't help I have reset it a number of times nothing helped. I an so done I just got back into this hobby after about 30 years spent 1000's building and buying equipment for what frustration!!
Enough venting I have a Zephyr and a DT402 Throttle it doesn't matter which one I use the results are the same. Any Ideas where to start??