rrinker How is it wrong? Atlas components aren;t power routing, and their books show you everythign you need to do to wire up the track plans presented. An awful lot of people got their start, beyond the basic train set, with those Atlas books. Then they hear about other brands which may be superior in some way, so their next attempt uses these components., But the learning cycle did not include information on proper gapping for power routing turnouts. The information certianly is not as common today as it once was, when the majority of ready laiud turnouts available need no special wiring. At one time, the need for careful placement of gaps for proper operation was the more common thing, That's not 'blaming' Atlas. That's the difference between the Atlas handbooks and a more generic layout wiring book which would explain both, and not mention brand other than perhaps to say these brands require gaps, these brands do not. --Randy
How is it wrong? Atlas components aren;t power routing, and their books show you everythign you need to do to wire up the track plans presented. An awful lot of people got their start, beyond the basic train set, with those Atlas books. Then they hear about other brands which may be superior in some way, so their next attempt uses these components., But the learning cycle did not include information on proper gapping for power routing turnouts. The information certianly is not as common today as it once was, when the majority of ready laiud turnouts available need no special wiring. At one time, the need for careful placement of gaps for proper operation was the more common thing,
That's not 'blaming' Atlas. That's the difference between the Atlas handbooks and a more generic layout wiring book which would explain both, and not mention brand other than perhaps to say these brands require gaps, these brands do not.
--Randy
Randy, you kind of did blame Atlas when you made the following statement:
"If anything, the lack of knowledge comes from a reliance on Atlas components and their wiring books. SInce Atlas turnouts are non power routing and have insualted frogs, the only time the Atlas wiring books show a gap is to make a new control block. More often then not, older turnouts were power routing, and older books on wiring layouts always mentioned this. The bright new shiny repackaged books often leave that out, or make a minor reference to it, just in case."
The Atlas book is intended to be an instruction manual on the use of Atlas products, not a treatise on how to wire turnouts in general. So, why should the Atlas book devote space to more sophisticated wiring techniques that don't apply to Atlas products? Perhaps the fault lies with other manufacturers who produce power routing turnouts but fail to note the need for more advanced knowledge of wiring techniques on the package.
You go on to say that "Atlas components aren;t power routing, and their books show you everything you need to do to wire up the track plans presented. An awful lot of people got their start, beyond the basic train set, with those Atlas books. Then they hear about other brands which may be superior in some way, so their next attempt uses these components., But the learning cycle did not include information on proper gapping for power routing turnouts."
Again, the Atlas book does not hold itself out to be a general wiring manual on all turnouts, just Atlas turnouts. To my way of thinking, beginners and less experienced hobbyists make the rght choice in selecting non-power routing turnouts like Atlas. As they gain experience and begin to look for more advanced products like power routing turnouts, they can then increase their learning curve by becoming more fully acquainted with advanced wiring techniques.
Rich
Alton Junction
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Soo true. After all, why would anyone expect them to include the possibilities of other manufacturers products.
Springfield PA
rrinker If anything, the lack of knowledge comes from a reliance on Atlas components and their wiring books. --Randy
If anything, the lack of knowledge comes from a reliance on Atlas components and their wiring books.
LOL
Let's blame it on Atlas.
Peering through some of my old books while waiting for paint to dry, they do indeed show where to gap power routing turnouts and there's the constant repeated statements to only feed power from the point end (which gapping the middle two rails takes care of. At least one even has a drawing of various configurations including the cases where the double gaps aren't required and can even be a benefit with a power routing turnout that you don't get with an always on insulated frog type. Bets practices does say to use switch motor contacts though rather than rely on those little blades on the throwbar to make adequate contact.
As Fred W mentiond earlier it is not the switches that need to be gapped but the tracks that lead to them.
rrinker I don;t think anythign has been 'lost' - thre's no difference really if DC or DCC was being used in this case, there would be a short if the proper gaps are not in place. If anything, the lack of knowledge comes from a reliance on Atlas components and their wiring books. SInce Atlas turnouts are non power routing and have insualted frogs, the only time the Atlas wiring books show a gap is to make a new control block. More often then not, older turnouts were power routing, and older books on wiring layouts always mentioned this. The bright new shiny repackaged books often leave that out, or make a minor reference to it, just in case. Grab an older book and it will explain with pictures why you get shorts and what to do to make sure it doesn't happen. Or to get a feel yourself, take one of the turnouts and a meter set on continuity or ohms and conenct one lead to one of the stock rails before the points and the other alternately to each of the output rails and try both positions of the points. You will quickly see exactly what is connected to what and in which point position. --Randy
I don;t think anythign has been 'lost' - thre's no difference really if DC or DCC was being used in this case, there would be a short if the proper gaps are not in place. If anything, the lack of knowledge comes from a reliance on Atlas components and their wiring books. SInce Atlas turnouts are non power routing and have insualted frogs, the only time the Atlas wiring books show a gap is to make a new control block. More often then not, older turnouts were power routing, and older books on wiring layouts always mentioned this. The bright new shiny repackaged books often leave that out, or make a minor reference to it, just in case. Grab an older book and it will explain with pictures why you get shorts and what to do to make sure it doesn't happen. Or to get a feel yourself, take one of the turnouts and a meter set on continuity or ohms and conenct one lead to one of the stock rails before the points and the other alternately to each of the output rails and try both positions of the points. You will quickly see exactly what is connected to what and in which point position.
I totally agree with your sentiments, Randy. What I was referring to with the knowledge lost sentiment were the directions to modify the turnouts, similar to the modifications sometimes recommended to make them "DCC-friendly". In this particular case, all that is needed is to know that the 2 inner rails on the diverging end of the turnout get insulated rail joiners or gaps nearby in the adjoining track. Yes, that's overkill - one doesn't need to gap both rails all the time, and in yards sometimes you don't need to gap either rail. But like DC block divisions, until one understands the ins and outs and the relationships between gapping and where feeders tie to, overkill works.
Fred W
Hi!
Lots of good advice here, not much I can add, other than to test, test, test at close intervals from the beginning of the build to the end.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
I appreciate all the advice and I'm going to give it one more try. The owner of a local hobby shop said, if I bring the switches in he will show me where to place the gaps. I really do appreciate all the advice it's just frustrating to get all the benchwork up and the track laid and then nothing happens. I apologize if my emotions got the best of me....thank y'all.
Fred W. has given you some excellent advice and I could not agree with him more. Also it is to your advantage to make these turnouts work if your running short wheel base locos like your 0-6-0. If you think your gaps are wright you should check to see if you haven't crossed up any feeders anywhere. I felt the same way you are felling right now when I wired up my layout. The one thing I will add is to keep your gaps close to the turnouts, some diagrams show them in the middle of a siding or a spur, that will not work if you park trains on them and the switch track is turned the wrong way.
Good luck, Truck.
richhotrain One other possibility is to ask members on the forum if anyone could gap and wire the Shinohara Code 70 turnouts for you. Someone with the expertise might volunteer and you could mail the turnouts to that member for the necessary modifications.
One other possibility is to ask members on the forum if anyone could gap and wire the Shinohara Code 70 turnouts for you. Someone with the expertise might volunteer and you could mail the turnouts to that member for the necessary modifications.
The turnouts themselves need no modifications. The gap can be as simple as an insulated rail joiner at the end of the frog rails where needed. I certainly don't modify my Shinohara turnouts. The gap is at the end of the frog rails or even further down the line. This prevents collisions by getting a train too close to the fouling point of the turnout with the points are thrown against it.
Eventually, I add a feeder to the frog through a polarity contact on my switch throw mechanism - but this is for improved electrical continuity, not short circuit prevention.
I continue to be surprised by how much knowledge and understanding of non-DCC wiring has been lost over the past decade.
my thoughts, your choices
BobL609 I agree that maybe the Shinohara turnouts are the problem and wiring them properly is way over my head....is there a different turnout I can use that would not create all these wiring complications?
I agree that maybe the Shinohara turnouts are the problem and wiring them properly is way over my head....is there a different turnout I can use that would not create all these wiring complications?
Atlas Custom Line turnouts do not require any special wiring and can be installed on your layout right out of the box. However, the Atlas turnouts only come in Code 100 and Code 83, not Code 70.
You mentioned that the Shinohara Code 70 turnouts are still new. You should sell them on eBay. You could probably get a pretty good price for them.
The Shinohara turnouts are power routing. Period. Gapping for power routing turnouts is not impossible to learn.
The primary (and only) principle is that there cannot be any flow of power into the diverging end of the frog of a power routing turnout from the rails beyond the turnout frog. The frog on such a turnout changes polarity when the turnout is thrown. Therefore, any rails with power feeders that can "see" straight into the diverging end of a turnout frog must have a gap somewhere between the power feeder and the frog, to prevent a short circuit when the turnout is thrown against the path.
To make it really simple, some folks just put gaps beyond the frog in both frog rails every time, for every turnout. This works, but takes away the ability to take advantage of power routing to save separate block toggles for dead end spurs in DC.
Numerous books on DC wiring (but not the Atlas book) explain how to gap power routing turnouts. They have diagrams that make the gapping principle easier to understand. If you look at diagram #4 at http://www.proto87.com/turnout-wiring-for-DCC.html, that is the situation you have with a Shinohara turnout. Put the 2 gaps at Y in, every time, every turnout, and you will never have a short circuit problem from power routing.
http://mrr.trains.com/en/How%20To/Articles/Controls%20and%20Electrical/2010/01/How%20to%20wire%20power-routing%20model%20train%20turnouts.aspx is an excerpt from Sperando's book on Model Railroad wiring showing diagrams of what I tried to describe.
If you really don't want to deal with gapping power routing turnouts, Atlas turnouts have dead frogs and both paths live at all times. It seems a shame to get rid of otherwise fine Shinohara turnouts, but then learning wiring is not for everyone. If the Shinoharas are code 70, I'll be happy to give them a good home.
hope this helps
BobL609 Rich, I appreciate the help.....I'm thinking these 20 plus year old turnouts (which have never been out of the box before) are creating the problem.....I will do as you suggest and see what happens. Worst comes to worst this blowing up thing has potential.
Rich,
I appreciate the help.....I'm thinking these 20 plus year old turnouts (which have never been out of the box before) are creating the problem.....I will do as you suggest and see what happens. Worst comes to worst this blowing up thing has potential.
Bob,
I agree with you that these turnouts may be causing your problem either because they are not fully and properly gapped and/or they are wired incorrectly.
Let us know what you find out.
BobL609 First off the turnouts are Shinohara Code 70 turnouts which I was told were "power routing" so I was advised to cut gaps in the rails above the frog, which I have done. To the best of my knowledge there are no reversing sections. The power pack is an MRC 260 Tech 4 which was purchased a few years ago but has worked when the layout was only one loop of track. I'm not planning on it being DCC although that could happen in the future; it is a new layout which I finally started building after I retired last year. Currently there are six locos in the fleet but only two are currently on the layout (a Bachman 0-6-0 saddle tank and a GE 44 tonner which I also believe is bachman. The 44 tonner is DCC equipped but I'm not sure about the 0-6-0 but I believe it is not). None of the locos are sound equipped. I will attempt to draw up a track diagram and post it as soon as I can.
First off the turnouts are Shinohara Code 70 turnouts which I was told were "power routing" so I was advised to cut gaps in the rails above the frog, which I have done. To the best of my knowledge there are no reversing sections. The power pack is an MRC 260 Tech 4 which was purchased a few years ago but has worked when the layout was only one loop of track. I'm not planning on it being DCC although that could happen in the future; it is a new layout which I finally started building after I retired last year. Currently there are six locos in the fleet but only two are currently on the layout (a Bachman 0-6-0 saddle tank and a GE 44 tonner which I also believe is bachman. The 44 tonner is DCC equipped but I'm not sure about the 0-6-0 but I believe it is not). None of the locos are sound equipped. I will attempt to draw up a track diagram and post it as soon as I can.
The older Shinohara Code 70 turnouts are power routing so you need to completely isolate the frog, above and below the frog. Also, I have read that the older Shinohara Code 70 turnouts can cause shorts in the throwbar area unless it is gapped there as well because of metal parts. Trying to run DCC equipped locos on a DC powered layout could also cause problems but I will let others offer advice on that subject.
I don't know how many of the Shinohara Code 70 turnouts are on your layout, but you might try removig them temporarily to see if that solves the overload problem on your power pack. And try running just a known DC loco on the layout with all other locos removed.
BobL609 I thank all who replied and I promise I will not give up; however that "blowing up" thing is starting to have merits.
I thank all who replied and I promise I will not give up; however that "blowing up" thing is starting to have merits.
Your initial post and this reply are way short of any meaningful information that would permit us to help you.
You say that you have cut gaps in turnouts and installed feeders but nothing works, the locomotives just sit there and the overload light comes on on the power pack.
Why have you cut gaps in the turnouts? Are there any reversing sections? Can you provide a track diagram or a wiring diagram or both? DC or DCC? If DCC, what brand? What kind of power pack? Has the power pack worked in the past? Is this a new layout or a modification to an existing layout? How many locos on the layout? Sound equipped?
Giving up is not an option.
Happy Railroading
Bob
Don't Ever Give Up
we are manly men, there is no testing. It works or it blows up.
Thanks, that was funny.
Far too many men actually live by that creed. It's often what lets the smoke out.
Recovering former former model railroader.
BobL609 ....I'm not a concept person so reading books apparently is not helping.
....I'm not a concept person so reading books apparently is not helping.
Unfortunately, wiring requires some kind of systematic approach becasue of the quantity of connections and the fact that nothing works if a mistake is made. Trouble shooting an electrical problem also requires a systematic approach if the first couple of guesses don't work. And the real kicker is that if somebody else fixes it for you, you will be just as stuck the next time you have a problem.
My order of trouble-shooting for short circuits (as given by your overload indicator and other symptons) is given below. Test after each step.
You didn't give enough details to rule this out, so I'm suspecting you have power-routing turnouts that are gapped incorrectly. I find the diagrams at http://www.proto87.com/turnout-wiring-for-DCC.html to be quite useful in understanding how and why to gap power-routing turnouts. Even though the page talks about DCC-friendly, turnouts work the same in DC and DCC.
Can you post a track plan? You may have a reverse loop which will require additional wiring.
Sounds like a problem with the power pack.
I would start there.
Make sure you dont have any stray feeder wires hanging around. When wiring up my current layout I had some feeder wires hanging that I missed and crawing under the layout for something else they got hooked together. It was driving crazy why my DCC system keep yelling at me and I found the touching wires
The first thing to do is remove all your rolling stock from the layout. The next thing is to unplug the power pack and hook up an ohm meter across the wires for the power pack. Then unhook or cut feeders until the ohm meter reads infinite. Then hook up one feeder at a time until you see the short on the meter then unhook that feeder and hook it to the other buss line. This should get you going again.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
Johnnny_reb Once a word is spoken it can not be unspoken!
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