Bob
Hi Jeff,
In answer to your question the section beyond the turnout had no feeders or power and there was no short.
I used the ohmmeter after every attempt to power the dead track. Any attempt to power it and there were many always produced a short. I tried closing the gap just past the turn out, jumpers from the A R to the track, jumpers from the loop to the section, and feeders from the buss. At each attempt when it didn’t work I changed the polarity to make sure I had it right. Nothing worked until the wye was isolated from the diverging track.
Thanks for your post and I hope this explains the situation. If you have any other questions please let me know.
I plan on replacing the wye with a DCC friendly one. This will cause the least disturbance to the rest of the laid and ballasted track.
It is said that experience is the greatest teacher. If so the forum comes in a close second.
Happy railroading
Don't Ever Give Up
There's something missing in this story. Insulfrog, electrofrog, or big green frog, if there's only power applied in one place, there shouldn't be a short.
If there was power applied beyond the switch, then I can see an electrofrog inducing a short if it wasn't gapped at the toe end. That's not to say that t non DCC friendly switch might not cause trouble when a loco goes through it, but when it's just sitting there, there should be no short.
Did you ever do what was suggested, and use an ohmeter to figure out what was shorted to what when there were no feeders anywhere in that section?
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
Hi Rich,
In answers ti your questions:
Your diagram shows a section of track connecting the divergent leg of the turnout to the 3-way track.
If you isolated the 3-way track from the spur, how did that solve the problem?
The 3 way wye was causing the shorts as it turned out to be electrofrog as opposed to insulfrog. How I got the wrong wye is a good question when all of my other turnouts are insulfrog. I certainly didn't read the box.
When you say "spur", what track(s) are you referring to?
The track beyond the loop leading to the wye. This is the dead section
Since the end of the divergent track of the turnout was gapped, was there a pair of feeder wires to the section of track that connected the divergent leg of the turnout to the 3-way track?
No there were no feeders. The divergent leg had no power and every attempt to power it resulted in a short due to the wye. Another part of the problem is due to my memory or lack thereof. I must have made the gap sometime ago to solve the problem and then started doing scerery and when I returned to running trains found the problem again.
If you isolated the 3-way track from the spur, where did the tracks beyond the 3-way track get power?
They didn’t have any and won’t be powered until the wye is replaced with an insulfrog.
Help me understand this.
You have asked the same questions I have asked myself. Hope this helps, if not please let me know.
I have wet paper towels laying on the track to loosen the ballast to remove the wye.
Happy Railroading
superbe locoi1sa: Bob. Is that a three way turnout going to the spur tracks? If it is an older three way then that is your problem. You must use a DCC friendly three way. http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches.htm Pete After trying all of the suggestions at least once I came up with a short evertime. The last possibility was that there was a set of feeders on the spur that I hadn't seen. When I found no feeders from the dead track I reread the thread and saw where Pete referred to the 3 way wye as being the problem. Using a razor saw I isolated it from the spur and the problem was solved. Bob
locoi1sa: Bob. Is that a three way turnout going to the spur tracks? If it is an older three way then that is your problem. You must use a DCC friendly three way. http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches.htm Pete
Bob.
Is that a three way turnout going to the spur tracks? If it is an older three way then that is your problem. You must use a DCC friendly three way.
http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches.htm
Pete
After trying all of the suggestions at least once I came up with a short evertime. The last possibility was that there was a set of feeders on the spur that I hadn't seen.
When I found no feeders from the dead track I reread the thread and saw where Pete referred to the 3 way wye as being the problem.
Using a razor saw I isolated it from the spur and the problem was solved.
Huh? I am confused.
Rich
Alton Junction
The link I sent should be your best bet. Are you sure it is not an old Shinohara? An old Shinohara needs major surgery that would take too much space to print here. Perhaps it would be better to extend one spur track and use two turnouts instead of the 3 way.
A Peco Electrofrog just needs the insulated joiners off the four frog rails.
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
locoi1sa Bob. Is that a three way turnout going to the spur tracks? If it is an older three way then that is your problem. You must use a DCC friendly three way. http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches.htm Pete
How I got an electrofrog is a mystery. Now comes the nasty job of tearing up my first scenery and replacing the wye.
OR is there some way to make the electrofrog work?
If people who think we are just playing with our toys only knew.....
Thanks to every one !!!!
rrinker The turnout off the reversing section that leads intot he dead area - what brnad is it? If it's an Atlas or Peco Insulfrog you should NOT need a gap there, there is no reason it should short unless the feeders to the tracks beyond are wired backwards. ALL feeders in that area should come from the same autoreverser that feeds that reversing section - the autoreversers are feeding the diagonals between the gaps you have marked, right? --Randy
The turnout off the reversing section that leads intot he dead area - what brnad is it? If it's an Atlas or Peco Insulfrog you should NOT need a gap there, there is no reason it should short unless the feeders to the tracks beyond are wired backwards. ALL feeders in that area should come from the same autoreverser that feeds that reversing section - the autoreversers are feeding the diagonals between the gaps you have marked, right?
--Randy
Randy,
That's a good point. With the gaps cut at the end of the divergent track of that turnout leading into the spur, the spur requires feeders from the main bus wires.
But, as you point out, the spur could actually be part of the reversing section that the turnout is connected to, in which case no gaps would be needed at the end of the divergent track of that turnout leading into the spur. In that case, power to the spur should come from feeder wires attached to the output side of the auto reverser unit controlling that reversing section.
superbe, we eagerly await your resolution of this problem.
To one and all
Thanks for the suggestions. I hope to report back no later than tomorrow.
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
superbe There are two reverse loops that work perfectly with two PSAR-1 reversing units. The turnout is powering the diverging section of the turnout. From there on (shown by the gap) there is no power. Everthing I have tried has ended up shorting all of the track. 1. Closed the gap at the spur by soldering a copper jumpers to each rail. a no go 2. Connected jumpers from the loop to the dead track..... another short 3. Ran wire from the PSAR to the dead track another short 4. Ran wire from the main bus to the dead section. no good 5. Checked polarity of both the powered track and the spur so they would be the same. I haven't run the trains for sometime but it must have been working in the beginning or I wouldn't have ballasted the track Help will be greatly appreciated. Happy Railroading ??? Bob
There are two reverse loops that work perfectly with two PSAR-1 reversing units.
The turnout is powering the diverging section of the turnout. From there on (shown by the gap) there is no power.
Everthing I have tried has ended up shorting all of the track.
1. Closed the gap at the spur by soldering a copper jumpers to each rail. a no go
2. Connected jumpers from the loop to the dead track..... another short
3. Ran wire from the PSAR to the dead track another short
4. Ran wire from the main bus to the dead section. no good
5. Checked polarity of both the powered track and the spur so they would be the same.
I haven't run the trains for sometime but it must have been working in the beginning or I wouldn't have ballasted the track
Help will be greatly appreciated.
Happy Railroading ???
1) Disconnect ALL the feeders to the dead section and check the left and right rails in the dead section if they are shorted to each other. Move the switch to all positions when checking. 2) Connect track power to this section only and see if a train runs in the dead section. 3) Add more sections of the layout to track power one at a time.
Lee
MisterBeasley I'm also looking at the 3-way as the source of your problems. Do you have any other feeders into that siding and small yard? Could you have connected one of them to the main track bus instead of the appropriate reverser? If you've got feeders on any of the inner rails of the 3-way, that might be causing the shorts.
I'm also looking at the 3-way as the source of your problems.
Do you have any other feeders into that siding and small yard? Could you have connected one of them to the main track bus instead of the appropriate reverser? If you've got feeders on any of the inner rails of the 3-way, that might be causing the shorts.
If the OP's track diagram and notation is correct, I am not ready to blame the 3-way track because the diagram shows dead track beyond the divergent track of the turnout. So, that would mean that the track connecting the divergent leg of the turnout to the 3-way track is also dead.
Also, since the entire spur is beyond the gap, the entire spur is not part of the reversing section, so the feeders to the spur should be off the main bus wires, not the output side of the reversing unit.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
If that whole section is dead, then the turnout is not actually powerign the diverging route. I wouldn;t rely on the points makign contact to prove that power anyway. Instead feed the tracks beyond the frog with some feeders connecting back to the AR for that leg, since that siding area is part of that loop.
If both rails are gapped in each of the 5 places indicated on your diagram, it should work OK.
The two legs of the "X" each form a separate reversing section. I assume that each leg is connected to a separate PSAR-1 reversing unit. The divergent track of the turnout leading to the spur is part of one of the reversing sections, so you correctly gapped the entry to the spur. Even if you the phase wired backwards, as cacole speculates, the reversing unit should activate and prevent a short.
If the track beyond the gaps in that turnout leading to the spur is "dead", you need to provide a set of feeder wires to the spur from the main bus wires.
Keep us posted.
Is the gap to the dead section in only one rail or both ?
If only one rail, it must be the same rail as the gaps at each end of the reverse loop to which it is connected. If you have the opposite rail gapped here than at the ends of the loop, that's what's causing the short.
If both rails are gapped at the dead section, you may have their phase wired backwards. Reverse the wires and see if that cures the problem.
Yesterday I started the removal process for the wye.
1. Called mbklein and ordered insulfrog wye
2. Laid wet paper towels over wye to loosen ballast
3. Added more water with eye dropper and lifted throat end where the wye was isolated with the razor saw
4. Cleaned up road bed.
It all went easier than expected so far. My first time tearing up scenery