richotrain
Vail and Southwestern RR
The two industries pictured exist in the real world. The flour mill is Miller Milling Company and the plant on the right is New World Pasta. My rendition of them is in no way a replication of the actual plants.
They have a unique relationship. Miller produces the flour for New World and pipes it directly to the pasta plant. The two have side by side plants in California and Virginia. Miller has so many sidings that it has its own switcher to move the grain cars. On the other hand New World ships its product by truck.
The next time you are grocery shopping look on the pasta boxes and you may see in the fine print “mfg by New World Pasta”. If so try some. It may taste better knowing this bit of history.
Thanks for the compliments!!
Happy Railroading
Bob
Don't Ever Give Up
The meter would have helped, I think. You always said you didn't have a short until you applied power, but the short was always there. With the gaps you had, the ohmmeter would have led you right to the three stub ends, and you would (hopefully) have had a lightbulb moment.
Debugging requires combining all the little pieces of evidence we can get. It is also useful to try (and it isn't always easy) to put our preconceived notions aside. In other words "loop related" for example. And the idea that the turnout was the problem, when a meter could have shown that it wasn't. And the idea that there could not be a short in the track work.
I'm not meaning to bang on you... it's more of a chance for all of us to think about how we debug. A lot of times a little time spent with the gray cells is much more useful than time spend "doing something."
And I agree with Rich.... the layout looks great!
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
Bob,
I am delighted that you got that layout up and running again. From the photos you provided, it looks pretty neat.
Rich
Alton Junction
In conclusion, this thread was started because there was no power to the track past the diverging turnout leading to a 3 way wye and every attempt to power it caused a short. Sometime in the past I had cut a gap at the turnout isolating the spur and the 3 sidings. Apparently there was a track issue at that time.
With regards to the use of a meter I did so from the beginning and after each time I tried to power the track. A meter couldn’t solve this problem, it was an operator’s problem. Yes, the problem was staring me right in the face and that is what makes it so frustrating. The metal track bumpers were causing the shorts and after they were removed from the sidings the diverging turnout and 3 way wye power routed the track as they are supposed to do. The meter confirmed this before running a locomotive to test the track for proper alignment. What a relief.
This was a case of not being able to see the forest for the trees or in this case the metal track bumpers
It is said that two heads are some times better than one. In this case all of you were my second head.
Thanks very much to everyone
I used to use Tomar Industries metal end posts which are beautiful, but they cost around $5 each.
Recently, I bought a dozen plastic ones from Walthers. Painted them up and used Scenic Cement to hold them down. Works like a charm, no need to insulate them to prevent shorts, and they are a heck of a lot cheaper than the metal ones.
P.S. This is not intended to be a criticism of superbe, but it is interesting to note that a lot of us identify a problem that appears unsolvable only to later realize that the cause of the problem and the solution is staring us in the face. As Vail and Southwestern RR noted, in this case, breaking out the meter a month ago could have saved you a lot of time.
The lesson learned, in my opinion, is not to trust what you "know". Actually breaking out the meter a month ago could have saved you a lot of time.
superbe At the end of the spurs I had installed metal Hayes bumpers and of course they were shorting the track.
At the end of the spurs I had installed metal Hayes bumpers and of course they were shorting the track.
superbe,
I will give you credit on two accounts. One, you found the problem. Two, you owned up to it.
Be sure to give us your final report when you are done.
Congrats.
There is one thing I think we can all agree on and that there was something unusal about this problem and it pains me to have to tell you what I did and I apologize to all for causing a confusing issue.
I'm going to start over with the wiring again and keep you advised. I'm still a little gun shy to say that the problem is solved.
This is why working on the layout in spurts plus a bad memory causes trouble with a capital T.
DG... I agree that those little tabs under the wye look like they could cause a problem. In fact looking at the original wye it didn't even look like some of them were making any contact.
Rich.... When I hooked the bus to the middle spur and there was a short I knew that there was definitely some thing fumnny going on as the spur was isolated from the rest of the track. That is when I found the bumpers.
Thanks every one for your help and I'll be back hopefully to report that every thing is A-OK. It must have been working originally or I wouldn't have ballasted the track. The bumpers were added later.
Vail and Southwestern RR I'd make the spurs in question part of the reversing section. No need to add an extra boundary crossing.
I'd make the spurs in question part of the reversing section. No need to add an extra boundary crossing.
Yep, I agree.
Our patience is wearing thin with you. LOL
Hey, man, take a look at the diagram below. The two rails are colored red and blue to illustrate the reverse polarities. The circles show the required gaps to avoid shorts.
Actually, that pair of gaps leading to the spur track are unnecessary but a good precaution if trains are crossing the gaps on the reversing section that feeds the spur.
You should have two PSAR's, one for each reversing section. Each reversing section is one leg of the 'X' crossing.
The input side of each PSAR should be wired to the main bus. The output side of each PSAR should be wired to only one of the reversing sections.
No feeder wires from one of the reversing sections should go anywhere but to the output side of its own PSAR. All tracks beyond the divergent track of the infamous turnout on that one reversing section should be wired to the main bus and nowhere else. So, the spur track, the 3-way wye and the yard tracks beyond the 3-way wye should all be wired to the main bus - - - and nowhere else. All of the other tracks outside of the two reversing sections should all be wired to the main bus and nowhere else.
Capice?
We don't want to hear from you again until you do that. LOLxLOL
Study the diagram. Check your wiring, then check it again.
I dealt with Peco 3 ways before. I wired them up myself at the club.
If I'm correct you'll see little tabs on the end of each set of points which are meant to slide under the rails as the throw bars moves. Unfortunately they don't work that good.
You'll need two tortoises (or switch machines with A/B relays) and a soldering iron to power route. Once you do this, you'll want to isolate everything at the end of the turnout except the outer most left and right stock rail.
You'll need to forward feed from relay #1 output to the frog to relay #2 input. There should be wires already attached to the frogs for the power routing.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
If the drawing from back when is accurate, there's no need for another reverser. The entire spur complex in question is part of the section, and should be connected to the same supply (reverser) as that section is.
I think you should unhook the bus wires to that section, and get out the trusty ohmmeter. See what's hooked to what. I'm getting a little suspicious of what may be happening at the root turnout to the spur. Be slow and deliberate. Make sure that the the left rails are always tied together, and the right. And that there is never a short between them, no matter what the position of any of the turnouts. If that's all clear, and you get a short when you hook up the power, the only possibility is that you have the power backwards. Take this slow. It really isn't rocket science.
Greetings
Here are the latest developments. With a new Peco insulfrog in hand I compared it to the one removed and they were identical so the original wasn’t an electrofrog after all. Just to be sure it hadn't been damaged I installed the new one to not take any chances. The new one produced the same results as the old one. I gaped the outgoing routes from the 3 way wye and all was well except that the 3 sidings had no power so it was back to square one. Next I placed feeders on the center siding and tried the following: 1. Attached them to the main buss. Created a dead short 2. Attached them to the loop track. Created another short that pulsated as the circuit breaker kicked in and out 3. Ran wire from the PSAR to the feeders but still a no go 4. Ran wire from a second PSAR but it still didn’t work. Attached are pictures showing the problem area. Maybe that will help you with my problem The only solution I can think of is to get another reverser. This picture shows a siding off of another loop. Disregard the turnouts not being in place as I was installing a switch motors when this picture was taken. It is gaped just before the turnout into the oil co and is powered by jumpers from the loop track. It works perfectly.
Here are the latest developments.
With a new Peco insulfrog in hand I compared it to the one removed and they were identical so the original wasn’t an electrofrog after all. Just to be sure it hadn't been damaged I installed the new one to not take any chances. The new one produced the same results as the old one.
I gaped the outgoing routes from the 3 way wye and all was well except that the 3 sidings had no power so it was back to square one.
Next I placed feeders on the center siding and tried the following:
1. Attached them to the main buss. Created a dead short
2. Attached them to the loop track. Created another short that pulsated as the circuit breaker kicked in and out
3. Ran wire from the PSAR to the feeders but still a no go
4. Ran wire from a second PSAR but it still didn’t work.
Attached are pictures showing the problem area. Maybe that will help you with my problem The only solution I can think of is to get another reverser.
This picture shows a siding off of another loop. Disregard the turnouts not being in place as I was installing a switch motors when this picture was taken.
It is gaped just before the turnout into the oil co and is powered by jumpers from the loop track. It works perfectly.
The above picture shows the 3 way wye and the unpowered spurs. (Don't pay any attention to Tonya. She's directing the tree planting)
I'm at wits end and can only guess that another reverser may fix things.
Your ideas will be greatly appreciated.
superbe superbe: Yesterday I started the removal process for the wye. 1. Called mbklein and ordered insulfrog wye 2. Laid wet paper towels over wye to loosen ballast 3. Added more water with eye dropper and lifted throat end where the wye was isolated with the razor saw 4. Cleaned up road bed. It all went easier than expected so far. My first time tearing up scenery Happy railroading Bob
superbe: Yesterday I started the removal process for the wye. 1. Called mbklein and ordered insulfrog wye 2. Laid wet paper towels over wye to loosen ballast 3. Added more water with eye dropper and lifted throat end where the wye was isolated with the razor saw 4. Cleaned up road bed. It all went easier than expected so far. My first time tearing up scenery Happy railroading Bob
Yesterday I started the removal process for the wye.
1. Called mbklein and ordered insulfrog wye
2. Laid wet paper towels over wye to loosen ballast
3. Added more water with eye dropper and lifted throat end where the wye was isolated with the razor saw
4. Cleaned up road bed.
It all went easier than expected so far. My first time tearing up scenery
Happy railroading
You must only have been in model railroading a short while if this is your "first time tearing up scenery". LOL I average about once per month.
Seriously though, Bob, good luck and let us know if that works or if it is something else.
What will be of interest is whether the insulfrog three way switch ,that you call Wye, will correct the problem or not.
Jack W.
superbe Yesterday I started the removal process for the wye. 1. Called mbklein and ordered insulfrog wye 2. Laid wet paper towels over wye to loosen ballast 3. Added more water with eye dropper and lifted throat end where the wye was isolated with the razor saw 4. Cleaned up road bed. It all went easier than expected so far. My first time tearing up scenery Happy railroading Bob
locoi1sa Rich. I see what your saying. From the first diagram I could see he put the gaps at the beginning of the lead to the three way. When a locomotive crossed those gaps it would be instant short. The current would be fed through the three way and back to the gaps even if there were no feeders to the three spur tracks beyond. If there were insulated joiners at the spur track then there would be no short until the loco hit the points. It would not matter at that point where the power comes from. Either the AR or the track buss from the outside loop. If he filled the gaps to the three way then that whole reversing section would be shorted and possibly destroy the auto reverser before he found the real culprit. I look at this way. If those gaps were not there it would have been a lot worse. Thanks. Pete
Rich.
I see what your saying. From the first diagram I could see he put the gaps at the beginning of the lead to the three way. When a locomotive crossed those gaps it would be instant short. The current would be fed through the three way and back to the gaps even if there were no feeders to the three spur tracks beyond. If there were insulated joiners at the spur track then there would be no short until the loco hit the points. It would not matter at that point where the power comes from. Either the AR or the track buss from the outside loop. If he filled the gaps to the three way then that whole reversing section would be shorted and possibly destroy the auto reverser before he found the real culprit. I look at this way. If those gaps were not there it would have been a lot worse.
Thanks.
Pete
Pete,
You and I are probably beating a dead horse here, but what the heck.
As superbe initially indicated, and reaffirmed in his most recent reply, there were no feeders beyond the gaps at the end of divergent track, none, when he first started the thread. So, when you say that once a locomotive crossed those gaps there would be instant short, that would not be possible. No power, no short. Dead section of track, yes, short no. That "dead" section of track was the original problem, not a short.
I have no quarrel with your reasoning that the 3-way switch could cause a short, but the idea of a short was not raised until superbe starting troubleshooting.
I give up on this one, but the fact remains that the initial and subsequent premisses are contradictory. Sorry, superbe, I know that you did not intend to cause all of this controversy.
Did he have any feeders beyond those two rail gaps at the outset ?
Was is a dead section of track or a short ? Two entirely different things.
When all of this is resolved on superbe's layout, what did he do to solve the problem, wiring-wise, gaps, and the now infamous 3-way switch ?
Anyhow, I gotta go figure out how to wire my lift out bridge because I am tired of crawling under it to reach the other end of the layout.
This is an add on to my last post.
Next I will confirm that the power is coming from the loop to the track leaving the diverging turnout and then close the gaps at the track at the turnout.
That should make the spur a part of the loop.
Hello everyone,
I regret that I’m not explaining the situation very well, especially with you wanting to help.
When I posted this thread there were there were no feeders beyond the divergent track. This divergent track needed to be powered. I tried every source of power and each time the entire layout was shorted.
It was only after I accepted Pete’s advice that the problem was with the wye and isolated it that I was able to establish power on the divergent route up to the wye without creating a short of any nature.
For me it will be easier to replace the wye with an insulfrog (DCC friendly) than to modify the existing one. In either case the current wye will have to be removed from the layout.
However, I'm not sure if the new wye will require any special installation.
I do really appreciate your interest in this problem and am open to further suggestions.
Thanks and
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
Early on in this thread, you raised the issue of the 3-way switch and the possibility of shorts in a non-DCC friendly 3-way switch, and I think we are all in agreement with you.
But, what Dave, Jeff, I and others are saying is that superbe has been providing somewhat confusing and incomplete information about what is wired where. His diagram refers to a section of "dead track". At other times, he refers to "no power", "shorts", and the absence of any feeder wires whatsoever in certain sections of track, the "spur", the "3-way wye" and (my words) the three tracks beyond the 3-way switch.
If superbe is satisfied that he found the problem and fixed it, then kudos to him. But it leaves me, and I suspect others, confused and friustrated in not fully understanding his wiring arrangement. Once committed to helping him resolve his problem, it is hard to let go.
If you take a close look at the first picture and draw lines over each rail you will see the possible shorts. Also not having insulated gaps at the diverging rails like your supposed to there are big time shorts. When the first set of points are set to straight through both rails from the frog V will be the same polarity. With no insulated joiner at the diverging rail there is the main short.
I can't explain it any further. There MUST be 4 insulated joiners in the center 4 rails to the spurs. According to the OP there is no insulation on those. Even on DC these turnouts were problematic and most people ripped them out and replaced them with 2 separate turnouts.
My point is that he says he has no short before he applies power. So while the turnout may be an issue, there's got to be something else going on. Making the turnout truly DCC friendly does look like an undesirable task. But I am not yet convinced that is the main issue. The point side of the frogs are at least isolated, or there wouldn't be any point to the turnout in DC, it would be a short creator!
I hope to clarify some confusion in the three way turnout shorting. The three way has 3 frogs and 2 sets of points. No matter which way the points are going if there is no insulated section between the 3 frogs when power is put to the point side there will be a short between one frog and another. Being metal frogs there is no insulation between the diverging rail and the straight stock rail. As with the old Shinohara and the all metal frog Pecos you must insulate ALL the diverging rails. The old Shinohara was bad in that the 2 sets of points were joined with a metal bar and the first set of points were joined together at the heel of the points with a metal bar. My clubs layout had 2 of them installed and one was removed and trashed the other was removed and made DCC friendly by me. I cut insulated gaps at all the frogs and fabricated new points and hinges with PC board throw bars. It took about three hours of work and a lot of checking and re checking with an ohm meter. I also added four or five jumpers between rails. The clubs three way has its own breaker and is fed from the buss by itself. Any stray metal wheel will create a short and it does not take much.
Allan Gartners view of three ways.
Three-Way: I have studied this turnout and was preparing a diagram for it. But in the process of deciding what had to be done to make it a DCC friendly turnout, I decided the difficulty level of surgery required by the average modeler was too great. I do not want this website to be for expert solder technicians only. This website is for average modelers. Therefore, I deem this type of turnout not practical for conversion to DCC friendliness.
A lot of modelers find this type of turnout a source of derailments and therefore, their use should be avoided. Many clubs and modelers forbid their use like the double-slip.
However, if you find that you must use them, use some sort of short circuit protection or a bulb.
1. Cutting rail gaps: Use a Dremel tool with a thin diamond saw (I use a high grade saw with a nominal thickness of .010”) at sufficiently high speed that the saw will not have the opportunity to get “hung up”. Stabilize both the tool itself, and your wrist by placing the tool on a thin rubber pad that will neither slide on the rails, nor allow the Dremel tool on top to move. Cut the gaps with a single pass. Glue in styrene fillers. Max Maginness suggests the use of “electronic fish paper”
2. Destabilizing the turnout: Cutting gaps in certain places can leave rail segments unsupported. If such seems possible, stabilize the rails involved with clamps, tape, or even glued “splints”, none removed until the gaps have been cut and the adjacent rails re-supported by the gap being filled with a glued-in styrene strip (ACC or epoxy). I use both .010 and .020 x .060” strips for this purpose. A few swipes with some 400 grit will reduce the thickness, if needed.
3. Gapping metal pivot and throwbars: Replace with PCB board or ties, or other hard insulating material. The best is unclad PCB material with each point rail fastened to the bar independently in pivoting fashion, either to a protruding rotating 0-80 threaded rod (with solder), or to a pin protruding through a hole drilled in the rail flange and then bent over. Soldering directly to PCB board is possible, providing that the fixed geometry that results will allow the point hinges to continue to function compatible with good electrical continuity, and the throw bar sufficient clearance to swing between the headblocks without binding.
4. Hinges: Replace the single metal pivot hinge with two independent rail joiners.
5. Melting ties: Before soldering to rails, clean wax residue (from the molding process) with 90% alcohol. I use fluid rosin for flux. A hot iron (45 watts) with a small spade tip, wielded with a determined “quick-in/quick-out” mindset works well. I use fairly broad based heat sinks made from cheap small metal flea market clamps with the insulating tip covers removed. When soldering to points already in place, I slip pieces of paper between the points and the underlying ties to prevent the heated rails from imprinting, or even embedding into, the underlying ties. Clean up with alcohol and a toothbrush or pipe cleaner.
6. Feeders: Five feeding wires are required. One each to each isolated frog, and one each to each stock rail. I use #24 single strand tinned with the wire tip flattened, bent over, and trimmed like a spike head. Again, use a hot iron- in and out.
7. Jumpers: The wire jumpers within the turnout are best applied from below with the turnout on the bench. This requires some nipping of the supporting styrene structure in places to uncover bare places on the bottom of rails for soldering. There is enough of a surrounding network of support that nipping these out does not alter the turnout’s structural integrity.
8. Planning ahead: Mark very clearly all of the gaps that you want to make very clearly with tape or marking pen, and have clear in your mind what you are about to do, the rationale of why you are doing it, and then do it all in one sitting. There are quite few rails, and in one instance when I was about to begin gapping, my eyes were momentarily diverted, and when I turned back, I neatly cut two gaps…about the wrong frog. I could make use of one gap, but the other one was promptly closed with solder.
Note the metal bars between the rails of both sets of points, and the metal pivot/bar of the right-hand set, all of which require new gapping and/or replacement. This gapping pattern, proper wiring, and power routing of all three frogs will provide a reliable and stable “DCC-friendly” turnout,
Note that gapping the short closure rail (R) requires that the rail be well supported in the process.
Hope this clarifies some confusion.
Just to be clear, this isn't a DC or DCC issue. It's a wiring problem.
Don't rip anything up yet! You have not gotten to the root of the problem.
If you have a short when you add power, there is a short there before you add power. Adding power does not add a short. (OK, there could be a high resistance short that you are not seeing, eventually we might have to look for that possibility.)
If the "dead" section is totally isolated from the rest of the layout (get the meter and check, both rails to both rails, the if you add power to the heel side of the 3-way, there cannot be a short. Make sure the wiring you are using to add the power isn't shorted.
The point is you are getting ready to do a bunch of destruction, when a few cuts with a razor saw may be all you have to do. If things are as you say, and you replace the switch, the short is still almost certainly there. Take this slow.
Before you rip anything up I think you still have some investigating to do.
If you trully had both rails gapped beyond the switch leading to the 3-way in the NW-SE revesrsing track, AND you truly had no feeders to the any of the tracks beyond those gaps then the 3-way switch (which is what I assume you are calling a "wye") would have NOTHING to do with it.
The ony way that the 3-way switch could be involved is if you have power feeders from someplace to SOME track beyond the gaps.
Before you start ripping things up you need to find those feeders and verify where you go. If the feeders are messed up, then you can replace switches til the cows come home and never solve the problem. Removing the switch may be "solving the problem" because the feeders are shorting back through the switch, but replacing the switch many put the short right back in.
Take you diagram. NUMBER the switches so we know which switches yare talking about and LETTER the tracks so we can identify the tracks.
If you have gaps in both rails at all locations on the diagram you either have :
1. Feeders installed improperly
2. The insulating gaps have closed up some place.
3. The 3-way switch is somehow defective and has an internal short (very rare).
If you do decide to remove the 3-way switch, completely remove it from the layout, disconnect all the wires. Set up your ohm-meter and on the single track end, touch one probe to one rail and one probe to the other rail. If you have infinite resistance then the switch is OK. If you have 0 resistance then the switch is bad.
If the switch is OK then your problem is back on the layout.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Superbe,
I think that there is a lot of confusion among us based upon your original drawing.
Let me ask you a question. Beyond the gaps to the rails of the divergent track of that turnout, were there any feeder wires at all on the spur track, the 3-way wye, or the three tracks leading off the wye?
And, if there were, did those feeder wires come from the main bus wires or from the output side of one of the auto reversing units.