What will be of interest is whether the insulfrog three way switch ,that you call Wye, will correct the problem or not.
Jack W.
superbe superbe: Yesterday I started the removal process for the wye. 1. Called mbklein and ordered insulfrog wye 2. Laid wet paper towels over wye to loosen ballast 3. Added more water with eye dropper and lifted throat end where the wye was isolated with the razor saw 4. Cleaned up road bed. It all went easier than expected so far. My first time tearing up scenery Happy railroading Bob
superbe: Yesterday I started the removal process for the wye. 1. Called mbklein and ordered insulfrog wye 2. Laid wet paper towels over wye to loosen ballast 3. Added more water with eye dropper and lifted throat end where the wye was isolated with the razor saw 4. Cleaned up road bed. It all went easier than expected so far. My first time tearing up scenery Happy railroading Bob
Yesterday I started the removal process for the wye.
1. Called mbklein and ordered insulfrog wye
2. Laid wet paper towels over wye to loosen ballast
3. Added more water with eye dropper and lifted throat end where the wye was isolated with the razor saw
4. Cleaned up road bed.
It all went easier than expected so far. My first time tearing up scenery
Happy railroading
Bob
You must only have been in model railroading a short while if this is your "first time tearing up scenery". LOL I average about once per month.
Seriously though, Bob, good luck and let us know if that works or if it is something else.
Rich
Alton Junction
Greetings
Here are the latest developments. With a new Peco insulfrog in hand I compared it to the one removed and they were identical so the original wasn’t an electrofrog after all. Just to be sure it hadn't been damaged I installed the new one to not take any chances. The new one produced the same results as the old one. I gaped the outgoing routes from the 3 way wye and all was well except that the 3 sidings had no power so it was back to square one. Next I placed feeders on the center siding and tried the following: 1. Attached them to the main buss. Created a dead short 2. Attached them to the loop track. Created another short that pulsated as the circuit breaker kicked in and out 3. Ran wire from the PSAR to the feeders but still a no go 4. Ran wire from a second PSAR but it still didn’t work. Attached are pictures showing the problem area. Maybe that will help you with my problem The only solution I can think of is to get another reverser. This picture shows a siding off of another loop. Disregard the turnouts not being in place as I was installing a switch motors when this picture was taken. It is gaped just before the turnout into the oil co and is powered by jumpers from the loop track. It works perfectly.
Here are the latest developments.
With a new Peco insulfrog in hand I compared it to the one removed and they were identical so the original wasn’t an electrofrog after all. Just to be sure it hadn't been damaged I installed the new one to not take any chances. The new one produced the same results as the old one.
I gaped the outgoing routes from the 3 way wye and all was well except that the 3 sidings had no power so it was back to square one.
Next I placed feeders on the center siding and tried the following:
1. Attached them to the main buss. Created a dead short
2. Attached them to the loop track. Created another short that pulsated as the circuit breaker kicked in and out
3. Ran wire from the PSAR to the feeders but still a no go
4. Ran wire from a second PSAR but it still didn’t work.
Attached are pictures showing the problem area. Maybe that will help you with my problem The only solution I can think of is to get another reverser.
This picture shows a siding off of another loop. Disregard the turnouts not being in place as I was installing a switch motors when this picture was taken.
It is gaped just before the turnout into the oil co and is powered by jumpers from the loop track. It works perfectly.
The above picture shows the 3 way wye and the unpowered spurs. (Don't pay any attention to Tonya. She's directing the tree planting)
I'm at wits end and can only guess that another reverser may fix things.
Your ideas will be greatly appreciated.
Happy Railroading
Don't Ever Give Up
If the drawing from back when is accurate, there's no need for another reverser. The entire spur complex in question is part of the section, and should be connected to the same supply (reverser) as that section is.
I think you should unhook the bus wires to that section, and get out the trusty ohmmeter. See what's hooked to what. I'm getting a little suspicious of what may be happening at the root turnout to the spur. Be slow and deliberate. Make sure that the the left rails are always tied together, and the right. And that there is never a short between them, no matter what the position of any of the turnouts. If that's all clear, and you get a short when you hook up the power, the only possibility is that you have the power backwards. Take this slow. It really isn't rocket science.
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
I dealt with Peco 3 ways before. I wired them up myself at the club.
If I'm correct you'll see little tabs on the end of each set of points which are meant to slide under the rails as the throw bars moves. Unfortunately they don't work that good.
You'll need two tortoises (or switch machines with A/B relays) and a soldering iron to power route. Once you do this, you'll want to isolate everything at the end of the turnout except the outer most left and right stock rail.
You'll need to forward feed from relay #1 output to the frog to relay #2 input. There should be wires already attached to the frogs for the power routing.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
superbe,
Our patience is wearing thin with you. LOL
Hey, man, take a look at the diagram below. The two rails are colored red and blue to illustrate the reverse polarities. The circles show the required gaps to avoid shorts.
Actually, that pair of gaps leading to the spur track are unnecessary but a good precaution if trains are crossing the gaps on the reversing section that feeds the spur.
You should have two PSAR's, one for each reversing section. Each reversing section is one leg of the 'X' crossing.
The input side of each PSAR should be wired to the main bus. The output side of each PSAR should be wired to only one of the reversing sections.
No feeder wires from one of the reversing sections should go anywhere but to the output side of its own PSAR. All tracks beyond the divergent track of the infamous turnout on that one reversing section should be wired to the main bus and nowhere else. So, the spur track, the 3-way wye and the yard tracks beyond the 3-way wye should all be wired to the main bus - - - and nowhere else. All of the other tracks outside of the two reversing sections should all be wired to the main bus and nowhere else.
Capice?
We don't want to hear from you again until you do that. LOLxLOL
Study the diagram. Check your wiring, then check it again.
I'd make the spurs in question part of the reversing section. No need to add an extra boundary crossing.
Vail and Southwestern RR I'd make the spurs in question part of the reversing section. No need to add an extra boundary crossing.
Yep, I agree.
There is one thing I think we can all agree on and that there was something unusal about this problem and it pains me to have to tell you what I did and I apologize to all for causing a confusing issue.
At the end of the spurs I had installed metal Hayes bumpers and of course they were shorting the track.
I'm going to start over with the wiring again and keep you advised. I'm still a little gun shy to say that the problem is solved.
This is why working on the layout in spurts plus a bad memory causes trouble with a capital T.
DG... I agree that those little tabs under the wye look like they could cause a problem. In fact looking at the original wye it didn't even look like some of them were making any contact.
Rich.... When I hooked the bus to the middle spur and there was a short I knew that there was definitely some thing fumnny going on as the spur was isolated from the rest of the track. That is when I found the bumpers.
Thanks every one for your help and I'll be back hopefully to report that every thing is A-OK. It must have been working originally or I wouldn't have ballasted the track. The bumpers were added later.
superbe At the end of the spurs I had installed metal Hayes bumpers and of course they were shorting the track.
I will give you credit on two accounts. One, you found the problem. Two, you owned up to it.
Be sure to give us your final report when you are done.
Congrats.
The lesson learned, in my opinion, is not to trust what you "know". Actually breaking out the meter a month ago could have saved you a lot of time.
I used to use Tomar Industries metal end posts which are beautiful, but they cost around $5 each.
Recently, I bought a dozen plastic ones from Walthers. Painted them up and used Scenic Cement to hold them down. Works like a charm, no need to insulate them to prevent shorts, and they are a heck of a lot cheaper than the metal ones.
P.S. This is not intended to be a criticism of superbe, but it is interesting to note that a lot of us identify a problem that appears unsolvable only to later realize that the cause of the problem and the solution is staring us in the face. As Vail and Southwestern RR noted, in this case, breaking out the meter a month ago could have saved you a lot of time.
In conclusion, this thread was started because there was no power to the track past the diverging turnout leading to a 3 way wye and every attempt to power it caused a short. Sometime in the past I had cut a gap at the turnout isolating the spur and the 3 sidings. Apparently there was a track issue at that time.
With regards to the use of a meter I did so from the beginning and after each time I tried to power the track. A meter couldn’t solve this problem, it was an operator’s problem. Yes, the problem was staring me right in the face and that is what makes it so frustrating. The metal track bumpers were causing the shorts and after they were removed from the sidings the diverging turnout and 3 way wye power routed the track as they are supposed to do. The meter confirmed this before running a locomotive to test the track for proper alignment. What a relief.
This was a case of not being able to see the forest for the trees or in this case the metal track bumpers
It is said that two heads are some times better than one. In this case all of you were my second head.
Thanks very much to everyone
Bob,
I am delighted that you got that layout up and running again. From the photos you provided, it looks pretty neat.
The meter would have helped, I think. You always said you didn't have a short until you applied power, but the short was always there. With the gaps you had, the ohmmeter would have led you right to the three stub ends, and you would (hopefully) have had a lightbulb moment.
Debugging requires combining all the little pieces of evidence we can get. It is also useful to try (and it isn't always easy) to put our preconceived notions aside. In other words "loop related" for example. And the idea that the turnout was the problem, when a meter could have shown that it wasn't. And the idea that there could not be a short in the track work.
I'm not meaning to bang on you... it's more of a chance for all of us to think about how we debug. A lot of times a little time spent with the gray cells is much more useful than time spend "doing something."
And I agree with Rich.... the layout looks great!
richotrain
Vail and Southwestern RR
The two industries pictured exist in the real world. The flour mill is Miller Milling Company and the plant on the right is New World Pasta. My rendition of them is in no way a replication of the actual plants.
They have a unique relationship. Miller produces the flour for New World and pipes it directly to the pasta plant. The two have side by side plants in California and Virginia. Miller has so many sidings that it has its own switcher to move the grain cars. On the other hand New World ships its product by truck.
The next time you are grocery shopping look on the pasta boxes and you may see in the fine print “mfg by New World Pasta”. If so try some. It may taste better knowing this bit of history.
Thanks for the compliments!!