Yesterday I started the removal process for the wye.
1. Called mbklein and ordered insulfrog wye
2. Laid wet paper towels over wye to loosen ballast
3. Added more water with eye dropper and lifted throat end where the wye was isolated with the razor saw
4. Cleaned up road bed.
It all went easier than expected so far. My first time tearing up scenery
Happy railroading
Bob
Don't Ever Give Up
Is the gap to the dead section in only one rail or both ?
If only one rail, it must be the same rail as the gaps at each end of the reverse loop to which it is connected. If you have the opposite rail gapped here than at the ends of the loop, that's what's causing the short.
If both rails are gapped at the dead section, you may have their phase wired backwards. Reverse the wires and see if that cures the problem.
If both rails are gapped in each of the 5 places indicated on your diagram, it should work OK.
The two legs of the "X" each form a separate reversing section. I assume that each leg is connected to a separate PSAR-1 reversing unit. The divergent track of the turnout leading to the spur is part of one of the reversing sections, so you correctly gapped the entry to the spur. Even if you the phase wired backwards, as cacole speculates, the reversing unit should activate and prevent a short.
If the track beyond the gaps in that turnout leading to the spur is "dead", you need to provide a set of feeder wires to the spur from the main bus wires.
Keep us posted.
Rich
Alton Junction
Bob.
Is that a three way turnout going to the spur tracks? If it is an older three way then that is your problem. You must use a DCC friendly three way.
http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches.htm
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
If that whole section is dead, then the turnout is not actually powerign the diverging route. I wouldn;t rely on the points makign contact to prove that power anyway. Instead feed the tracks beyond the frog with some feeders connecting back to the AR for that leg, since that siding area is part of that loop.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I'm also looking at the 3-way as the source of your problems.
Do you have any other feeders into that siding and small yard? Could you have connected one of them to the main track bus instead of the appropriate reverser? If you've got feeders on any of the inner rails of the 3-way, that might be causing the shorts.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
MisterBeasley I'm also looking at the 3-way as the source of your problems. Do you have any other feeders into that siding and small yard? Could you have connected one of them to the main track bus instead of the appropriate reverser? If you've got feeders on any of the inner rails of the 3-way, that might be causing the shorts.
If the OP's track diagram and notation is correct, I am not ready to blame the 3-way track because the diagram shows dead track beyond the divergent track of the turnout. So, that would mean that the track connecting the divergent leg of the turnout to the 3-way track is also dead.
Also, since the entire spur is beyond the gap, the entire spur is not part of the reversing section, so the feeders to the spur should be off the main bus wires, not the output side of the reversing unit.
superbe There are two reverse loops that work perfectly with two PSAR-1 reversing units. The turnout is powering the diverging section of the turnout. From there on (shown by the gap) there is no power. Everthing I have tried has ended up shorting all of the track. 1. Closed the gap at the spur by soldering a copper jumpers to each rail. a no go 2. Connected jumpers from the loop to the dead track..... another short 3. Ran wire from the PSAR to the dead track another short 4. Ran wire from the main bus to the dead section. no good 5. Checked polarity of both the powered track and the spur so they would be the same. I haven't run the trains for sometime but it must have been working in the beginning or I wouldn't have ballasted the track Help will be greatly appreciated. Happy Railroading ??? Bob
There are two reverse loops that work perfectly with two PSAR-1 reversing units.
The turnout is powering the diverging section of the turnout. From there on (shown by the gap) there is no power.
Everthing I have tried has ended up shorting all of the track.
1. Closed the gap at the spur by soldering a copper jumpers to each rail. a no go
2. Connected jumpers from the loop to the dead track..... another short
3. Ran wire from the PSAR to the dead track another short
4. Ran wire from the main bus to the dead section. no good
5. Checked polarity of both the powered track and the spur so they would be the same.
I haven't run the trains for sometime but it must have been working in the beginning or I wouldn't have ballasted the track
Help will be greatly appreciated.
Happy Railroading ???
1) Disconnect ALL the feeders to the dead section and check the left and right rails in the dead section if they are shorted to each other. Move the switch to all positions when checking. 2) Connect track power to this section only and see if a train runs in the dead section. 3) Add more sections of the layout to track power one at a time.
Lee
The turnout off the reversing section that leads intot he dead area - what brnad is it? If it's an Atlas or Peco Insulfrog you should NOT need a gap there, there is no reason it should short unless the feeders to the tracks beyond are wired backwards. ALL feeders in that area should come from the same autoreverser that feeds that reversing section - the autoreversers are feeding the diagonals between the gaps you have marked, right?
To one and all
Thanks for the suggestions. I hope to report back no later than tomorrow.
rrinker The turnout off the reversing section that leads intot he dead area - what brnad is it? If it's an Atlas or Peco Insulfrog you should NOT need a gap there, there is no reason it should short unless the feeders to the tracks beyond are wired backwards. ALL feeders in that area should come from the same autoreverser that feeds that reversing section - the autoreversers are feeding the diagonals between the gaps you have marked, right? --Randy
Randy,
That's a good point. With the gaps cut at the end of the divergent track of that turnout leading into the spur, the spur requires feeders from the main bus wires.
But, as you point out, the spur could actually be part of the reversing section that the turnout is connected to, in which case no gaps would be needed at the end of the divergent track of that turnout leading into the spur. In that case, power to the spur should come from feeder wires attached to the output side of the auto reverser unit controlling that reversing section.
superbe, we eagerly await your resolution of this problem.
locoi1sa Bob. Is that a three way turnout going to the spur tracks? If it is an older three way then that is your problem. You must use a DCC friendly three way. http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches.htm Pete
After trying all of the suggestions at least once I came up with a short evertime. The last possibility was that there was a set of feeders on the spur that I hadn't seen.
When I found no feeders from the dead track I reread the thread and saw where Pete referred to the 3 way wye as being the problem.
Using a razor saw I isolated it from the spur and the problem was solved.
How I got an electrofrog is a mystery. Now comes the nasty job of tearing up my first scenery and replacing the wye.
OR is there some way to make the electrofrog work?
If people who think we are just playing with our toys only knew.....
Thanks to every one !!!!
Happy Railroading
The link I sent should be your best bet. Are you sure it is not an old Shinohara? An old Shinohara needs major surgery that would take too much space to print here. Perhaps it would be better to extend one spur track and use two turnouts instead of the 3 way.
A Peco Electrofrog just needs the insulated joiners off the four frog rails.
superbe locoi1sa: Bob. Is that a three way turnout going to the spur tracks? If it is an older three way then that is your problem. You must use a DCC friendly three way. http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches.htm Pete After trying all of the suggestions at least once I came up with a short evertime. The last possibility was that there was a set of feeders on the spur that I hadn't seen. When I found no feeders from the dead track I reread the thread and saw where Pete referred to the 3 way wye as being the problem. Using a razor saw I isolated it from the spur and the problem was solved. Bob
locoi1sa: Bob. Is that a three way turnout going to the spur tracks? If it is an older three way then that is your problem. You must use a DCC friendly three way. http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches.htm Pete
Huh? I am confused.
Your diagram shows a section of track connecting the divergent leg of the turnout to the 3-way track.
If you isolated the 3-way track from the spur, how did that solve the problem?
When you say "spur", what track(s) are you referring to?
Since the end of the divergent track of the turnout was gapped, was there a pair of feeder wires to the section of track that connected the divergent leg of the turnout to the 3-way track?
If you isolated the 3-way track from the spur, where did the tracks beyond the 3-way track get power?
Help me understand this.
Hi Rich,
In answers ti your questions:
The 3 way wye was causing the shorts as it turned out to be electrofrog as opposed to insulfrog. How I got the wrong wye is a good question when all of my other turnouts are insulfrog. I certainly didn't read the box.
The track beyond the loop leading to the wye. This is the dead section
No there were no feeders. The divergent leg had no power and every attempt to power it resulted in a short due to the wye. Another part of the problem is due to my memory or lack thereof. I must have made the gap sometime ago to solve the problem and then started doing scerery and when I returned to running trains found the problem again.
They didn’t have any and won’t be powered until the wye is replaced with an insulfrog.
You have asked the same questions I have asked myself. Hope this helps, if not please let me know.
I have wet paper towels laying on the track to loosen the ballast to remove the wye.
There's something missing in this story. Insulfrog, electrofrog, or big green frog, if there's only power applied in one place, there shouldn't be a short.
If there was power applied beyond the switch, then I can see an electrofrog inducing a short if it wasn't gapped at the toe end. That's not to say that t non DCC friendly switch might not cause trouble when a loco goes through it, but when it's just sitting there, there should be no short.
Did you ever do what was suggested, and use an ohmeter to figure out what was shorted to what when there were no feeders anywhere in that section?
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
Hi Jeff,
In answer to your question the section beyond the turnout had no feeders or power and there was no short.
I used the ohmmeter after every attempt to power the dead track. Any attempt to power it and there were many always produced a short. I tried closing the gap just past the turn out, jumpers from the A R to the track, jumpers from the loop to the section, and feeders from the buss. At each attempt when it didn’t work I changed the polarity to make sure I had it right. Nothing worked until the wye was isolated from the diverging track.
Thanks for your post and I hope this explains the situation. If you have any other questions please let me know.
I plan on replacing the wye with a DCC friendly one. This will cause the least disturbance to the rest of the laid and ballasted track.
It is said that experience is the greatest teacher. If so the forum comes in a close second.
Superbe,
I think that there is a lot of confusion among us based upon your original drawing.
Let me ask you a question. Beyond the gaps to the rails of the divergent track of that turnout, were there any feeder wires at all on the spur track, the 3-way wye, or the three tracks leading off the wye?
And, if there were, did those feeder wires come from the main bus wires or from the output side of one of the auto reversing units.
Before you rip anything up I think you still have some investigating to do.
If you trully had both rails gapped beyond the switch leading to the 3-way in the NW-SE revesrsing track, AND you truly had no feeders to the any of the tracks beyond those gaps then the 3-way switch (which is what I assume you are calling a "wye") would have NOTHING to do with it.
The ony way that the 3-way switch could be involved is if you have power feeders from someplace to SOME track beyond the gaps.
Before you start ripping things up you need to find those feeders and verify where you go. If the feeders are messed up, then you can replace switches til the cows come home and never solve the problem. Removing the switch may be "solving the problem" because the feeders are shorting back through the switch, but replacing the switch many put the short right back in.
Take you diagram. NUMBER the switches so we know which switches yare talking about and LETTER the tracks so we can identify the tracks.
If you have gaps in both rails at all locations on the diagram you either have :
1. Feeders installed improperly
2. The insulating gaps have closed up some place.
3. The 3-way switch is somehow defective and has an internal short (very rare).
If you do decide to remove the 3-way switch, completely remove it from the layout, disconnect all the wires. Set up your ohm-meter and on the single track end, touch one probe to one rail and one probe to the other rail. If you have infinite resistance then the switch is OK. If you have 0 resistance then the switch is bad.
If the switch is OK then your problem is back on the layout.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Don't rip anything up yet! You have not gotten to the root of the problem.
If you have a short when you add power, there is a short there before you add power. Adding power does not add a short. (OK, there could be a high resistance short that you are not seeing, eventually we might have to look for that possibility.)
If the "dead" section is totally isolated from the rest of the layout (get the meter and check, both rails to both rails, the if you add power to the heel side of the 3-way, there cannot be a short. Make sure the wiring you are using to add the power isn't shorted.
The point is you are getting ready to do a bunch of destruction, when a few cuts with a razor saw may be all you have to do. If things are as you say, and you replace the switch, the short is still almost certainly there. Take this slow.
Just to be clear, this isn't a DC or DCC issue. It's a wiring problem.
I hope to clarify some confusion in the three way turnout shorting. The three way has 3 frogs and 2 sets of points. No matter which way the points are going if there is no insulated section between the 3 frogs when power is put to the point side there will be a short between one frog and another. Being metal frogs there is no insulation between the diverging rail and the straight stock rail. As with the old Shinohara and the all metal frog Pecos you must insulate ALL the diverging rails. The old Shinohara was bad in that the 2 sets of points were joined with a metal bar and the first set of points were joined together at the heel of the points with a metal bar. My clubs layout had 2 of them installed and one was removed and trashed the other was removed and made DCC friendly by me. I cut insulated gaps at all the frogs and fabricated new points and hinges with PC board throw bars. It took about three hours of work and a lot of checking and re checking with an ohm meter. I also added four or five jumpers between rails. The clubs three way has its own breaker and is fed from the buss by itself. Any stray metal wheel will create a short and it does not take much.
Allan Gartners view of three ways.
Three-Way: I have studied this turnout and was preparing a diagram for it. But in the process of deciding what had to be done to make it a DCC friendly turnout, I decided the difficulty level of surgery required by the average modeler was too great. I do not want this website to be for expert solder technicians only. This website is for average modelers. Therefore, I deem this type of turnout not practical for conversion to DCC friendliness.
A lot of modelers find this type of turnout a source of derailments and therefore, their use should be avoided. Many clubs and modelers forbid their use like the double-slip.
However, if you find that you must use them, use some sort of short circuit protection or a bulb.
1. Cutting rail gaps: Use a Dremel tool with a thin diamond saw (I use a high grade saw with a nominal thickness of .010”) at sufficiently high speed that the saw will not have the opportunity to get “hung up”. Stabilize both the tool itself, and your wrist by placing the tool on a thin rubber pad that will neither slide on the rails, nor allow the Dremel tool on top to move. Cut the gaps with a single pass. Glue in styrene fillers. Max Maginness suggests the use of “electronic fish paper”
2. Destabilizing the turnout: Cutting gaps in certain places can leave rail segments unsupported. If such seems possible, stabilize the rails involved with clamps, tape, or even glued “splints”, none removed until the gaps have been cut and the adjacent rails re-supported by the gap being filled with a glued-in styrene strip (ACC or epoxy). I use both .010 and .020 x .060” strips for this purpose. A few swipes with some 400 grit will reduce the thickness, if needed.
3. Gapping metal pivot and throwbars: Replace with PCB board or ties, or other hard insulating material. The best is unclad PCB material with each point rail fastened to the bar independently in pivoting fashion, either to a protruding rotating 0-80 threaded rod (with solder), or to a pin protruding through a hole drilled in the rail flange and then bent over. Soldering directly to PCB board is possible, providing that the fixed geometry that results will allow the point hinges to continue to function compatible with good electrical continuity, and the throw bar sufficient clearance to swing between the headblocks without binding.
4. Hinges: Replace the single metal pivot hinge with two independent rail joiners.
5. Melting ties: Before soldering to rails, clean wax residue (from the molding process) with 90% alcohol. I use fluid rosin for flux. A hot iron (45 watts) with a small spade tip, wielded with a determined “quick-in/quick-out” mindset works well. I use fairly broad based heat sinks made from cheap small metal flea market clamps with the insulating tip covers removed. When soldering to points already in place, I slip pieces of paper between the points and the underlying ties to prevent the heated rails from imprinting, or even embedding into, the underlying ties. Clean up with alcohol and a toothbrush or pipe cleaner.
6. Feeders: Five feeding wires are required. One each to each isolated frog, and one each to each stock rail. I use #24 single strand tinned with the wire tip flattened, bent over, and trimmed like a spike head. Again, use a hot iron- in and out.
7. Jumpers: The wire jumpers within the turnout are best applied from below with the turnout on the bench. This requires some nipping of the supporting styrene structure in places to uncover bare places on the bottom of rails for soldering. There is enough of a surrounding network of support that nipping these out does not alter the turnout’s structural integrity.
8. Planning ahead: Mark very clearly all of the gaps that you want to make very clearly with tape or marking pen, and have clear in your mind what you are about to do, the rationale of why you are doing it, and then do it all in one sitting. There are quite few rails, and in one instance when I was about to begin gapping, my eyes were momentarily diverted, and when I turned back, I neatly cut two gaps…about the wrong frog. I could make use of one gap, but the other one was promptly closed with solder.
Note the metal bars between the rails of both sets of points, and the metal pivot/bar of the right-hand set, all of which require new gapping and/or replacement. This gapping pattern, proper wiring, and power routing of all three frogs will provide a reliable and stable “DCC-friendly” turnout,
Note that gapping the short closure rail (R) requires that the rail be well supported in the process.
Hope this clarifies some confusion.
My point is that he says he has no short before he applies power. So while the turnout may be an issue, there's got to be something else going on. Making the turnout truly DCC friendly does look like an undesirable task. But I am not yet convinced that is the main issue. The point side of the frogs are at least isolated, or there wouldn't be any point to the turnout in DC, it would be a short creator!
If you take a close look at the first picture and draw lines over each rail you will see the possible shorts. Also not having insulated gaps at the diverging rails like your supposed to there are big time shorts. When the first set of points are set to straight through both rails from the frog V will be the same polarity. With no insulated joiner at the diverging rail there is the main short.
I can't explain it any further. There MUST be 4 insulated joiners in the center 4 rails to the spurs. According to the OP there is no insulation on those. Even on DC these turnouts were problematic and most people ripped them out and replaced them with 2 separate turnouts.
Pete,
Early on in this thread, you raised the issue of the 3-way switch and the possibility of shorts in a non-DCC friendly 3-way switch, and I think we are all in agreement with you.
But, what Dave, Jeff, I and others are saying is that superbe has been providing somewhat confusing and incomplete information about what is wired where. His diagram refers to a section of "dead track". At other times, he refers to "no power", "shorts", and the absence of any feeder wires whatsoever in certain sections of track, the "spur", the "3-way wye" and (my words) the three tracks beyond the 3-way switch.
If superbe is satisfied that he found the problem and fixed it, then kudos to him. But it leaves me, and I suspect others, confused and friustrated in not fully understanding his wiring arrangement. Once committed to helping him resolve his problem, it is hard to let go.
Rich.
I see what your saying. From the first diagram I could see he put the gaps at the beginning of the lead to the three way. When a locomotive crossed those gaps it would be instant short. The current would be fed through the three way and back to the gaps even if there were no feeders to the three spur tracks beyond. If there were insulated joiners at the spur track then there would be no short until the loco hit the points. It would not matter at that point where the power comes from. Either the AR or the track buss from the outside loop. If he filled the gaps to the three way then that whole reversing section would be shorted and possibly destroy the auto reverser before he found the real culprit. I look at this way. If those gaps were not there it would have been a lot worse.
Thanks.
Hello everyone,
I regret that I’m not explaining the situation very well, especially with you wanting to help.
When I posted this thread there were there were no feeders beyond the divergent track. This divergent track needed to be powered. I tried every source of power and each time the entire layout was shorted.
It was only after I accepted Pete’s advice that the problem was with the wye and isolated it that I was able to establish power on the divergent route up to the wye without creating a short of any nature.
For me it will be easier to replace the wye with an insulfrog (DCC friendly) than to modify the existing one. In either case the current wye will have to be removed from the layout.
However, I'm not sure if the new wye will require any special installation.
I do really appreciate your interest in this problem and am open to further suggestions.
Thanks and
This is an add on to my last post.
Next I will confirm that the power is coming from the loop to the track leaving the diverging turnout and then close the gaps at the track at the turnout.
That should make the spur a part of the loop.
locoi1sa Rich. I see what your saying. From the first diagram I could see he put the gaps at the beginning of the lead to the three way. When a locomotive crossed those gaps it would be instant short. The current would be fed through the three way and back to the gaps even if there were no feeders to the three spur tracks beyond. If there were insulated joiners at the spur track then there would be no short until the loco hit the points. It would not matter at that point where the power comes from. Either the AR or the track buss from the outside loop. If he filled the gaps to the three way then that whole reversing section would be shorted and possibly destroy the auto reverser before he found the real culprit. I look at this way. If those gaps were not there it would have been a lot worse. Thanks. Pete
You and I are probably beating a dead horse here, but what the heck.
As superbe initially indicated, and reaffirmed in his most recent reply, there were no feeders beyond the gaps at the end of divergent track, none, when he first started the thread. So, when you say that once a locomotive crossed those gaps there would be instant short, that would not be possible. No power, no short. Dead section of track, yes, short no. That "dead" section of track was the original problem, not a short.
I have no quarrel with your reasoning that the 3-way switch could cause a short, but the idea of a short was not raised until superbe starting troubleshooting.
I give up on this one, but the fact remains that the initial and subsequent premisses are contradictory. Sorry, superbe, I know that you did not intend to cause all of this controversy.
Did he have any feeders beyond those two rail gaps at the outset ?
Was is a dead section of track or a short ? Two entirely different things.
When all of this is resolved on superbe's layout, what did he do to solve the problem, wiring-wise, gaps, and the now infamous 3-way switch ?
Anyhow, I gotta go figure out how to wire my lift out bridge because I am tired of crawling under it to reach the other end of the layout.
superbe Yesterday I started the removal process for the wye. 1. Called mbklein and ordered insulfrog wye 2. Laid wet paper towels over wye to loosen ballast 3. Added more water with eye dropper and lifted throat end where the wye was isolated with the razor saw 4. Cleaned up road bed. It all went easier than expected so far. My first time tearing up scenery Happy railroading Bob