The difference of adding additonal breakers is so that a short in one place won't shut down the whole layout. One particualr help would be if you have a helix - it could be potentially disasterous for the train to suddenly stop and start on the helix because someone elsewhere ran a turnout and the power was blippign on and off. Just adding a single breaker between the booster and the entire layout is a bit of a waste EXCEPT if you run turnouts with stationary decoders and you tape off power for those between the booster and the breaker - that way if you run a turnout and short the layout, there is still power to the stationary decoder so you can fix the problem without having to drag the loco back by hand. Usually though when installing breakers you install more than one, and gap both rails of the layout between each section.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
DigitalGriffin richhotrain: Assuming that you have a good DCC system with a built in circuit breaker and no more than a 5 amp booster per power district, isn't the moral of the story that you should have adequate feeders abd properly sized feeder wires to every section of track as verified by the quarter test and forget about wiring in 1156 bulbs? Rich In my humble opinion there is nothing wrong with 1156 bulbs. Do I use them? No. I like tony's PSX breakers. But its a matter of personal preference. A 1156 will limit you to about 2 amps. Lets say you wire up a turnout wrong, and are shorting through the points, then the 1156 will light up. But in the mean time you are sending ~25->30Watts through the points and rail. Anything that can't handle that kind of power will melt. The thinnest point in your circuit path is what will go up first.
richhotrain: Assuming that you have a good DCC system with a built in circuit breaker and no more than a 5 amp booster per power district, isn't the moral of the story that you should have adequate feeders abd properly sized feeder wires to every section of track as verified by the quarter test and forget about wiring in 1156 bulbs? Rich
Assuming that you have a good DCC system with a built in circuit breaker and no more than a 5 amp booster per power district, isn't the moral of the story that you should have adequate feeders abd properly sized feeder wires to every section of track as verified by the quarter test and forget about wiring in 1156 bulbs?
Rich
In my humble opinion there is nothing wrong with 1156 bulbs. Do I use them? No. I like tony's PSX breakers. But its a matter of personal preference. A 1156 will limit you to about 2 amps. Lets say you wire up a turnout wrong, and are shorting through the points, then the 1156 will light up. But in the mean time you are sending ~25->30Watts through the points and rail. Anything that can't handle that kind of power will melt. The thinnest point in your circuit path is what will go up first.
DG,
If I have a 5 amp system (NCE PH Pro) and adequate feeder wires throughout the layout, won't the booster trip and shut down the system before any damage can occur?
I am not challenging what you say, but what does the PSX breaker do that the booster doesn't already do?
Alton Junction
mfm37 richhotrain: Assuming that you have a good DCC system with a built in circuit breaker and no more than a 5 amp booster per power district, isn't the moral of the story that you should have adequate feeders abd properly sized feeder wires to every section of track as verified by the quarter test and forget about wiring in 1156 bulbs? Rich Rich, Your thinking is correct. But then you were told that on the NCE Yahoo group by a real live EE. Not just by us DCC users that have only experience with it and no degree. Martin Myers
Rich,
Your thinking is correct. But then you were told that on the NCE Yahoo group by a real live EE. Not just by us DCC users that have only experience with it and no degree.
Martin Myers
LOL
You little devil, you have been stalking me.
selector richhotrain: ... Sounds like I shouldn't bother with the 1156 bulb. Given adequate feeder wires throughout the layout, my command station should shut down in the event of a short. Agree? Rich Rich, the bulbs serve three potential benefits: 1. They provide a quick indication when they glow as to which area of an electrically partitioned layout is experiencing the fault. If you have two trains in different parts of your layout that stop suddenly, which has the fault? 2. They filter, or limit really, the amount of amperage that can course through the wires in the area affected. This effectively limits the potential damage to a decoder that you can't get to quickly. Especially an expensive sound decoder; 3. But, in providing the benefit above, it also prevents the shorts detection circuitry from tripping. On layouts with multiple users and only one base station, the base station will suspend power to the layout entirely if it detects a short anywhere. The light bulb reduces the spike to the point where the base station's parameters can include that quick burst of power as if you had just taken a long ABBA set, each with sound, out of mute status and began to tow a long train with them. So, even if you are by yourself, and have multiple things going on on your layout, the bulb will draw power severely in the affected area, glow, give you the quick indication as to the place of the fault, and the rest of your layout, say a fast moving passenger train on a closed loop, will continue apace. No, they absolutely are not essential, and probably not very desirable in many instances. But they make my life easier, and Joe Fugate seems to like them. Crandell
richhotrain: ... Sounds like I shouldn't bother with the 1156 bulb. Given adequate feeder wires throughout the layout, my command station should shut down in the event of a short. Agree? Rich
... Sounds like I shouldn't bother with the 1156 bulb. Given adequate feeder wires throughout the layout, my command station should shut down in the event of a short. Agree?
Rich, the bulbs serve three potential benefits:
1. They provide a quick indication when they glow as to which area of an electrically partitioned layout is experiencing the fault. If you have two trains in different parts of your layout that stop suddenly, which has the fault?
2. They filter, or limit really, the amount of amperage that can course through the wires in the area affected. This effectively limits the potential damage to a decoder that you can't get to quickly. Especially an expensive sound decoder;
3. But, in providing the benefit above, it also prevents the shorts detection circuitry from tripping. On layouts with multiple users and only one base station, the base station will suspend power to the layout entirely if it detects a short anywhere. The light bulb reduces the spike to the point where the base station's parameters can include that quick burst of power as if you had just taken a long ABBA set, each with sound, out of mute status and began to tow a long train with them. So, even if you are by yourself, and have multiple things going on on your layout, the bulb will draw power severely in the affected area, glow, give you the quick indication as to the place of the fault, and the rest of your layout, say a fast moving passenger train on a closed loop, will continue apace.
No, they absolutely are not essential, and probably not very desirable in many instances. But they make my life easier, and Joe Fugate seems to like them.
Crandell
Crandell, thanks. So noted. But, let me assure you, on my dink$1***$2layout, when two trains stop at the same time, I instantly know where the fault lies. It is at the point where the engine is lying on its side on top of the turnout where I forgot to throw the switch.
Cisco Kid I have always used a drop feeder about every three feet and at both ends of switches. However on my new expansion I have soldered most of the additional mainline (but not the switches). Just tried a few trial runs of the first 100 feet of mainline with no feeders installed yet. Of course it runs and seems to have no weak spots or voltage drops. I still plan to put in some feeders, but do I need as many as I used on my old section?
I have always used a drop feeder about every three feet and at both ends of switches. However on my new expansion I have soldered most of the additional mainline (but not the switches).
Just tried a few trial runs of the first 100 feet of mainline with no feeders installed yet. Of course it runs and seems to have no weak spots or voltage drops. I still plan to put in some feeders, but do I need as many as I used on my old section?
1. The one huge advantage brass track had over nickel-silver was its electrical conductivity (electrical conductivity/resistance list Conductivity Periodic table Sorry, I had one much easier to read and made just for model railroaders but have lost the link). Since we use nickel-silver track we need the many feeds of the nice copper wires to carry the electricity much more efficiently around and to the rail instead of through the rail. Also remember that one set of feeds every three feet means the locomotive is never more than 1.5 feet from power. I put feeds every 6 feet which gives me a 3 feet away from power number. Notice that also equates to every other set of joiners between two pieces of flex track.
2. Good tight rail joiners work great when track is first assembled. So testing on new track is sort of meaningless. One solders rail joiners to keep those those nickel-silver to nickel-silver connections nice and tight in first-assembled condition through time. The electricity is still flowing through the track and joiner not through the solder. Hopefully one is not using solder to "make the connection" on old re-used sloppy fitting joiners. Lead/tin solder is a horrible conductor of electricity. Never re-use rail joiners.
P.S. I'm in the "not soldering" rail joiners camp, except for curves using flex or hand laid track.
richhotrain ... Sounds like I shouldn't bother with the 1156 bulb. Given adequate feeder wires throughout the layout, my command station should shut down in the event of a short. Agree? Rich
richhotrain Assuming that you have a good DCC system with a built in circuit breaker and no more than a 5 amp booster per power district, isn't the moral of the story that you should have adequate feeders abd properly sized feeder wires to every section of track as verified by the quarter test and forget about wiring in 1156 bulbs? Rich
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
Well that and Ken had an 8 amp booster and far too thin a bus wire, so he could get 7 amps flowing through a derailed loco without tripping the breaker in the 8 amp booster he was using. Once he had that cleared up he was actually ok but lost faith in the MRC booster so he switch to a Digitrax 5 amp system.
The quarter test would have proved that out - it sounds silly but it really does work - LAY the quarter (or equivalent if not int he US) on the rails. Do NOT press down, just lay it there - the booster or circuit breaker shoudl trip. If not, it's not going to trip when your train derails either. The reason it fails to trip is usually inadequate wiring. Too thin a bus wire, not enough feeders, bad rail joiners - these introduce resistance in the circuit and if there's enough resistance in the wires, an otehrwise dead short across the rails becomes enough of a resistor that the current flow does not exceed the booster's ability.
Cisco Kid Guys, this is the OP again. Thanks for the tips, and no, I wasn't going to forego feeders, just wondering if soldered sections could eliminate some, and it seems true. However, you are on to a tangent here that worries me.
Guys, this is the OP again.
Thanks for the tips, and no, I wasn't going to forego feeders, just wondering if soldered sections could eliminate some, and it seems true.
However, you are on to a tangent here that worries me.
As our much liked club president would say, "Don't Panic!"
Burning out decoders:
Burning out decoders is a rarity unless you are pulling too much current through them or way overvolt them.
Turnouts that melt due to a wheel hitting the wrong throw leg or frog are not DCC friendly or you wired it up wrong.
The main point of breakers is to protect the boosters. Secondary is protecting your decoders. But it is RARE that an over current will fry a decoder. More likely an overvolt will fry a decoder first.
Multiple power districts with breakers for each are designed to 1) Keep the entire layout from shutting down due to a short and 2) Limit the current (total amps) in a given section.
HOWEVER:
Let's say you have track A and track B. Track A and B have an insulated rail joiner between them. Track A wasn't hooked up with proper feeders. As a result it reads 8 DCC volts. Track B was wired up properly with numerous feeders. It has 14.4 DCC volts. Voltage will always travel from high potential to low potential. 14.4-8 = 6.4 volts. If you have a 5 amp booster 5 amps * 6.4 volts = 32 watts. Now imagine you have an all wheel pickup train that is crossing from A to B. Guess what happens? Yep you send 32 watts from the one truck to the next. And loco wires are thin. They will burn out QUICK!
This is what happened to Cuda Ken.
Cisco Kid Do you mean that simple derailments and trucks causing shorts now and then warrant systems of bulbs and or circuit breakers?
Do you mean that simple derailments and trucks causing shorts now and then warrant systems of bulbs and or circuit breakers?
Cisco,
You already have a all the protection you need in the DCC system that you have. The booster has a circuit breaker built in to keep your decoders from frying. The quarter test is make sure that the current flow through your layout wiring is sufficient to trip the booster circuit breaker before anything would fry.
The 1156 bulb idea is a modification designed to enhance performance of the DCC system in regards to shorts. The 1156 modification is in not necessary to in order to operate your system safely. Some of us question whether this particular modification is worth the effort.
Randy, I do intend to break my layout up into very large blocks with kill switches just so that I can track down shorts when they happen. So far, I have been lucky. There will be a day when I have to pull out the nippers and cut apart the buss to find a pesky short.
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
If you have DCC, you have at least one booster. It has its own circuit breaker and if the quarter test works everywhere, you're good.
A 5 amp system will have a built in 5 amp circuit breaker. Some like to break that "main" breaker up into smaller power sub-districts. Those sub districts will each be protected by a circuit breaker with a trip current lower than the main booster's 5amp breaker. Doing so allows the power to stay on in other districts when on is shorted.
Works just like the service panel in your home. Overload the outlets in the kitchen and the breaker for the kitchen trips. Rest of the house stays lit.
However, you are on to a tangent here that worries me. Do you mean that simple derailments and trucks causing shorts now and then warrant systems of bulbs and or circuit breakers? That's the first I have heard of that. Do you mean just large layouts with boosters?
I don't have a need for boosters, so I have been told. (about 250 feet of track). Are you saying that if I run my Tsunamis off the rails somewhere they could fry? I have been using the old layout with the occasional derailment-short and never lost anything. Have I just been lucky?
Guy, you are not alone - there is a continually repeated mantra of you must break your layout up, you must break your layout up. No, what you MUST do is have adequante bus and feeder wires so the booster can trip when it is supposed to and not melt your equipment, and you also need to work on your track so short circuit causing derailments don't happen. And maybe train your crews to pay attention to signals if you have them or at least pay attention to the track ahead so they stop nefore runnign a turnout lined against them and cause a short that way.
Our whole 14x120' club modular layotu has but 2 circuit breakers - east main and west main. DO shorts happen? once in a blue moon, usually when someoen is goofing around, forgets to reset one of the manual turnouts and runs against it on the next lap, or someone tries putting a large steam loco on the track and doesn;t have it even close when they plop it on the track. It's quite rare. Not annoying or often enough to justify the large outlay in circuit breakers it would take to divide the whole thing nto reasonable blocks. And bulbs are right out, as a modular, getting moved around a lot would end up breaking bulbs and troubleshooting that during setup would be a complete mess. Plus I simply do NOT like them. They don;t 'protect' anything. They allow 3-5 amps to keep flowing through that shorted truck on the track. Dick Bronson at RR-CirKits has a better idea, combining the bulb with a PTC fuse so that the light bulb handles the quick spikes like a short at a frog or something, and if the short remaisn for any length of time the PTC resistor switches in the second filament on the bulb to reduce the current even more. I suspect those oeprating with nothign but 1157 bulbs woudl ALSO have no problem without said bulbs - if you get momentary shorts through turnouts, fix your wheel gauge instead of masking the problem with a light bulb. Turnouts should NOT EVER cause a short unless you run into one set against you. If they do - there's a problem. Something is not right, either the wheels or the track are not in spec per the NMRA standards gauge. Fix that - no more shorts.
That's my rant for the day.
Joe F. is a big proponent of the 1156 to keep the booster from shutting down the whole layout (or district) when a short occurs. To my way of thinking it complicates DCC wiring and is un-necessary for most layouts. I operate on several layouts besides my own and no one uses this system. We don't have problems with shorts. However, It does keep operators paying attention.
Two of the layouts are all one block ...Talk about pressure to not run points and be on your game...Guy
locoi1sa The #1156 auto tail light bulb works good for a 5 amp system. If you have a smaller system 3 amp or less the bulb will not light. The bulb will not prevent shorts at all. You will still get shorts. It does keep the booster from shutting down. The bulb system should only be used for small districts that will not have more then 3 locos running. A tripping type circuit breaker is the best thing to use. The bulb will limit current but the short remains until you find it. By then it could be bye bye $100 sound decoder. I have seen the bulbs light up with just a consist of engines running and no short at all. I have also seen the bulbs light up and the switch point melt off the throw bar. There was also a time when a friend could not find a power loss to a section of layout. He searched for a week until he found a broken filament in a bulb. Pete
The #1156 auto tail light bulb works good for a 5 amp system. If you have a smaller system 3 amp or less the bulb will not light. The bulb will not prevent shorts at all. You will still get shorts. It does keep the booster from shutting down. The bulb system should only be used for small districts that will not have more then 3 locos running. A tripping type circuit breaker is the best thing to use. The bulb will limit current but the short remains until you find it. By then it could be bye bye $100 sound decoder. I have seen the bulbs light up with just a consist of engines running and no short at all. I have also seen the bulbs light up and the switch point melt off the throw bar. There was also a time when a friend could not find a power loss to a section of layout. He searched for a week until he found a broken filament in a bulb.
Pete
Pete,
I have a 5 amp system (NCE PH Pro), and I run my layout solo as a single power district. Sounds like I shouldn't bother with the 1156 bulb. Given adequate feeder wires throughout the layout, my command station should shut down in the event of a short. Agree?
selector Rich, my layout is an open rectangle with four frame section abutted against each other, locked together with a couple of lag bolts, nuts, and good sized washers. The wiring comprises two pairs of heavy speaker wire going 180 degrees from each other around the layout from where the Digitrax DB150 base station is located. Each section is powered via a sub bus, this time 14 gauge single filament insulated wire. Since there are two bus wires, coming off each is a wire that makes the sub bus. The light bulb is soldered into any one of those two sub wires. I chose a wire, cut it, soldered the end closest to the bus to the nipple at the base of the bulb, and the other end is soldered to the chromed/nickel side of the 'cup'. That completes the circuit. It was a bit of a bother to get the one end soldered well to the nickel/chrome cup wall, but I got 'er done.
Rich, my layout is an open rectangle with four frame section abutted against each other, locked together with a couple of lag bolts, nuts, and good sized washers. The wiring comprises two pairs of heavy speaker wire going 180 degrees from each other around the layout from where the Digitrax DB150 base station is located.
Each section is powered via a sub bus, this time 14 gauge single filament insulated wire. Since there are two bus wires, coming off each is a wire that makes the sub bus. The light bulb is soldered into any one of those two sub wires. I chose a wire, cut it, soldered the end closest to the bus to the nipple at the base of the bulb, and the other end is soldered to the chromed/nickel side of the 'cup'. That completes the circuit. It was a bit of a bother to get the one end soldered well to the nickel/chrome cup wall, but I got 'er done.
Excellent drawing, thanks Crandell.
DigitalGriffin richhotrain: NeO6874: In series, it would look like this ... _______@______| --------------------------| where the '@' is the bulb, the solid/dashed lines are the two feeder wires, and the pipes are the rails above... Dan, Thanks, this is helpful but bear with me. I am electronically challenged. The 1156 bulb is simply wired on one side with one of the feeders from the rail and on the other side with a continuation of the feeder wire to the bus wire? The other feeder wire from the other rail continues uninterrupted to the other bus wire? Rich Rich, Wire 1: Power Supply Terminal A-> Side of bulb Wire 2: Buttom contact point on bulb to track rail A. Wire 3: track rail B to power supply Terminal B
richhotrain: NeO6874: In series, it would look like this ... _______@______| --------------------------| where the '@' is the bulb, the solid/dashed lines are the two feeder wires, and the pipes are the rails above... Dan, Thanks, this is helpful but bear with me. I am electronically challenged. The 1156 bulb is simply wired on one side with one of the feeders from the rail and on the other side with a continuation of the feeder wire to the bus wire? The other feeder wire from the other rail continues uninterrupted to the other bus wire? Rich
NeO6874: In series, it would look like this ... _______@______| --------------------------| where the '@' is the bulb, the solid/dashed lines are the two feeder wires, and the pipes are the rails above...
In series, it would look like this ...
_______@______|
--------------------------|
where the '@' is the bulb, the solid/dashed lines are the two feeder wires, and the pipes are the rails above...
Dan,
Thanks, this is helpful but bear with me. I am electronically challenged.
The 1156 bulb is simply wired on one side with one of the feeders from the rail and on the other side with a continuation of the feeder wire to the bus wire?
The other feeder wire from the other rail continues uninterrupted to the other bus wire?
Wire 1: Power Supply Terminal A-> Side of bulb
Wire 2: Buttom contact point on bulb to track rail A.
Wire 3: track rail B to power supply Terminal B
Thanks, DG, you stated it more elegantly than I did.
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
richhotrain NeO6874: In series, it would look like this ... _______@______| --------------------------| where the '@' is the bulb, the solid/dashed lines are the two feeder wires, and the pipes are the rails above... Dan, Thanks, this is helpful but bear with me. I am electronically challenged. The 1156 bulb is simply wired on one side with one of the feeders from the rail and on the other side with a continuation of the feeder wire to the bus wire? The other feeder wire from the other rail continues uninterrupted to the other bus wire? Rich
NeO6874 In series, it would look like this ... _______@______| --------------------------| where the '@' is the bulb, the solid/dashed lines are the two feeder wires, and the pipes are the rails above...
-Dan
Builder of Bowser steam! Railimages Site
selector If you measured accurately, you would see a change in voltage as you make feeders thinner, longer, and further apart. But, I too have several 22 gauge feeders about 3' long and about 7' apart, and I have no problems that I can detect with my analog eyes and ears. In one case, I had a 10' long shelf with four staging tracks on it built off my layout with a 6' span of track-on-wood to access it. So, we are talking power routing turnouts linking about 30' of track, and it was all fed by the longest pair of 22 gauge feeders on my system. Yes, that's right...two 22 gauge wires about 38" long feeding 30+ feet of rails. No, the quarter test didn't work anywhere in the staging yard. My insurance against fried decoders was a single auto tail light bulb rated at 2.4 amps wired in series into the sub-bus providing power to that area of the layout. Crandell
If you measured accurately, you would see a change in voltage as you make feeders thinner, longer, and further apart. But, I too have several 22 gauge feeders about 3' long and about 7' apart, and I have no problems that I can detect with my analog eyes and ears. In one case, I had a 10' long shelf with four staging tracks on it built off my layout with a 6' span of track-on-wood to access it. So, we are talking power routing turnouts linking about 30' of track, and it was all fed by the longest pair of 22 gauge feeders on my system. Yes, that's right...two 22 gauge wires about 38" long feeding 30+ feet of rails. No, the quarter test didn't work anywhere in the staging yard.
My insurance against fried decoders was a single auto tail light bulb rated at 2.4 amps wired in series into the sub-bus providing power to that area of the layout.
Crandell,
Can you provide a wiring schematic, or at least explain in laymen's terms, how to wire the auto tail light bulb in series?
Two wires I assume to the bulb but from where?
Thanks.
If you look at the bottom of Atlas flex track there is a gap in the middle exposing the rails. This is where you solder the feeder wires before installing the track. If you don't pre-solder the feeders the next option is to solder to the side of the rail.
Springfield PA
I use code 83 Atlas flex track; Atlas & Walthers turnouts. I solder two 3' sections of flex track and drop 18ga wire feeders at the soldered joint to a 12ga buss. The other end of the track is unsoldered rail joiners only. This allows the track to expand and contract. I use red and black wire for the feeders and the same color for the buss. No confusion, no siginificant voltage drop and no problems with the trains.
As stated above, the Quarter Test is the final process before locomotives touch the track.
Jim, Modeling the Kansas City Southern Lines in HO scale.
My current layout is the first one I have not had even one power issue on. I wanted to do it right. I read somewhere that "everything should be soldered to something". Be it feeders or the next piece of track. The first time you spend hours looking for that electrical problem. You'll wish that you had spent an extra two minutes adding those extra feeders.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
The 3 foot rule and where it came from:
The idea behind the 3' rule is because of flex track (which comes in 3' sections) Rail joiners are not a reliable way to conduct electricity between track sections. (Especially if there is lots of expansion/contraction issues) So soldering one pair of feeders to every piece of flex track helps ensure that it does indeed have electricity.
I've run #18 feeders off a #12 bus, 10' apart with no ill effects. HOWEVER if you are crossing between power districts (two seperate boosters), be sure to check for a voltage difference between the sections. If there is, drop a feeder at the end of each power district. And if necessary tweek the voltage on one of the supplies so they match.