I have always used a drop feeder about every three feet and at both ends of switches. However on my new expansion I have soldered most of the additional mainline (but not the switches).
Just tried a few trial runs of the first 100 feet of mainline with no feeders installed yet. Of course it runs and seems to have no weak spots or voltage drops. I still plan to put in some feeders, but do I need as many as I used on my old section?
(I didn't solder up the track in the new big yard, so I definitely will be using a bus and feeder under that.)
Hoping to post some pics of the new expansion sometime before Christmas.
I, too, have soldered most of my rail connections and have feeders only every six to eight feet or so. And some of the feeders are probably 24" or more in length from the bus to the rail. No problems.
A quarter test is the only way to tell you if you need more feeders. This is one of those subjects that comes up every now and then. Too few feeders can corrupt your DCC signal, cause your booster to not show a short while your feeding 5 amps into a frog and wheel. More feeders will ensure that a short will be recognized by the booster. Feeders are like dollars. You can't have too many.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
If you measured accurately, you would see a change in voltage as you make feeders thinner, longer, and further apart. But, I too have several 22 gauge feeders about 3' long and about 7' apart, and I have no problems that I can detect with my analog eyes and ears. In one case, I had a 10' long shelf with four staging tracks on it built off my layout with a 6' span of track-on-wood to access it. So, we are talking power routing turnouts linking about 30' of track, and it was all fed by the longest pair of 22 gauge feeders on my system. Yes, that's right...two 22 gauge wires about 38" long feeding 30+ feet of rails. No, the quarter test didn't work anywhere in the staging yard.
My insurance against fried decoders was a single auto tail light bulb rated at 2.4 amps wired in series into the sub-bus providing power to that area of the layout.
Crandell
All my track is soldered (including switches - I've only had to remove one in 30 years), I have 20g drops every 8-10 feet (12g buss). NCE/5amp, no noticable voltage drops, even with12 to 15 engines running.
Jay
C-415 Build: https://imageshack.com/a/tShC/1
Other builds: https://imageshack.com/my/albums
Yes. Or no. I generally only solder my track on curves - to the soldered joint I connect feeders. I've run (for testing) with just one set of feeders hooked up - on my old layotu as well, before I ran the main bus wires. I had the 8x12 loop completed so I hooked up one pair of feeders right to my Zephyr and - trains ran fine! No slowdowns, no blinking headlights indicating poor power pickup. It worked just fine. I previously had a 4x8 simple oval set up as a test track with FOUR sets of feeders equally around the oval and there were slowdowns - difference between all those joint of sectional track vs using flex. The 8x12, even with the turnouts, probably had less joints that the 4x8 sectional track oval.
I cheat. Every set of rail joiners has feeders soldered to it. Some will say this is not reliable, again this was the way I did it on my previous layout, and even after painting the track, and pint will invariable run into the cracks in the rail joiners, evrything still worked perfectly fine, no dead spots, no stalling - perfectly. I could set a steam loco with sound running on speed step 2 or 3 and just let it slowly chuff around for an hour while I worked at the bench. Since it worked fine before, I am continuing witht he same thing on my new larger layout. Do NOT buy terminal joiners, it's over $3 for one pair from Atlas. I just periodically spend an hour at the bench cutting feeder wire and soldering it to joiners so I have a supply on hand.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
locoi1sa A quarter test is the only way to tell you if you need more feeders. This is one of those subjects that comes up every now and then. Too few feeders can corrupt your DCC signal, cause your booster to not show a short while your feeding 5 amps into a frog and wheel. More feeders will ensure that a short will be recognized by the booster. Feeders are like dollars. You can't have too many. Pete
Take Pete's advices as Gospel. I cooked well over $250.00 in decoders and did not have a clue to what the problem was.
Few months ago I added around 15 feet of track to my bench. Had not hooked up and feeders yet, did the quarter test and the booster did not shut down! Added two feeders to be safe.
Cuda Ken
I hate Rust
When I started wiring Phase 2 of my layout, I installed a 4-section circuit breaker board from Tony's Trains, in addition to a pair of breaker-reverser modules. I powered it up, and put sound engines all over the place. Then I pulled a 25-cent piece out of my pocket and plopped it down on the track. The engine on that zone shut down, but so did another engine on a different zone. I thought I had a problem with the breakers, but weeks later I found the problem - a feeder connected to the wrong bus, essentially cross-wiring two breaker zones.
Doing that test is the best insurance you can get for a quarter.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Try the quarter test at the farthest point for starters to see if it trips. I'm curious if it would with everything soldered. Even if it does I would put them at least every 10 feet or so. If you cant do them all now I would start with one at the farthest point and then over time add them to split each section in half until done.
Springfield PA
The trouble with having too many feeders is... well there is no trouble with too many except possible confusion under the layout.
Trouble with not enough is it's really hard to add them after the track is painted and ballasted.
For NTRAK, we now recommend every two feet. Why? Well unless every builder can guarantee a perfect solder joint every time, two feet allows for redundancy. We just reworked 4 club owned yard modules that have been operating for over 15 years. Found half a dozen cold solder joints that never caused problems because of redundancy.
Martin Myers
Hi,
I'm building my first DCC layout (11x15, 2 level, HO) and have put in feeders every 3-4 feet as deemed adviseable by those that know a lot more than me. I recently finished laying the track for the yard and industrial sidings. Before I wired it, I ran a BLI RSD-15 (w/sound) all over the tracks to check for smoothness. I was surprised that with no feeders (getting juice from connections to the main line), the loco and sound worked on all the trackage.
Ok, that's nice, but I really don't want to trust that everything will work just fine for additional locos or in the future. Soooo, I put in feeders on each siding, and anything over 5 ft got two sets.
Note that I solder most - but not all connections. I usually don't solder areas where I might change later on, and most turnouts so they will "float".
In short, do you HAVE to put feeders in every 3-4 feet? Probably not if you have good trackwork, BUT it may turn out to be well worth the effort, and doing it during construction is definitely easier than later.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Since you have a new layout your loco's will work fine all the way around. Over a year or 2 the joiners will begin to conduct less and you'll begin to see dead or weak spots. Also the quarter test might work at time of setup but as the joiner connections break in and begin to fail, a test 6 months to a year later may fail. There are several things that make a joiner fail including the current passing through them.
If you never saw an equipment failure during a short circuit then you will likely not understand why you should bother if the loco runs fine around the layout. Having sufficient feeders will allow the protection circuits to do their job so you won't have to experience one.
On my last layout I had to add feeders after I had ballasted the track. What a pain. My rule is either feedered or soldered to a feedered section. Joiners will fail over time especially after you soak them in glue during ballasting. There's nothing like having to solder to ballasted and painted track.....To be avoided.
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
The 3 foot rule and where it came from:
The idea behind the 3' rule is because of flex track (which comes in 3' sections) Rail joiners are not a reliable way to conduct electricity between track sections. (Especially if there is lots of expansion/contraction issues) So soldering one pair of feeders to every piece of flex track helps ensure that it does indeed have electricity.
I've run #18 feeders off a #12 bus, 10' apart with no ill effects. HOWEVER if you are crossing between power districts (two seperate boosters), be sure to check for a voltage difference between the sections. If there is, drop a feeder at the end of each power district. And if necessary tweek the voltage on one of the supplies so they match.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
My current layout is the first one I have not had even one power issue on. I wanted to do it right. I read somewhere that "everything should be soldered to something". Be it feeders or the next piece of track. The first time you spend hours looking for that electrical problem. You'll wish that you had spent an extra two minutes adding those extra feeders.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
I use code 83 Atlas flex track; Atlas & Walthers turnouts. I solder two 3' sections of flex track and drop 18ga wire feeders at the soldered joint to a 12ga buss. The other end of the track is unsoldered rail joiners only. This allows the track to expand and contract. I use red and black wire for the feeders and the same color for the buss. No confusion, no siginificant voltage drop and no problems with the trains.
As stated above, the Quarter Test is the final process before locomotives touch the track.
Jim, Modeling the Kansas City Southern Lines in HO scale.
If you look at the bottom of Atlas flex track there is a gap in the middle exposing the rails. This is where you solder the feeder wires before installing the track. If you don't pre-solder the feeders the next option is to solder to the side of the rail.
selector If you measured accurately, you would see a change in voltage as you make feeders thinner, longer, and further apart. But, I too have several 22 gauge feeders about 3' long and about 7' apart, and I have no problems that I can detect with my analog eyes and ears. In one case, I had a 10' long shelf with four staging tracks on it built off my layout with a 6' span of track-on-wood to access it. So, we are talking power routing turnouts linking about 30' of track, and it was all fed by the longest pair of 22 gauge feeders on my system. Yes, that's right...two 22 gauge wires about 38" long feeding 30+ feet of rails. No, the quarter test didn't work anywhere in the staging yard. My insurance against fried decoders was a single auto tail light bulb rated at 2.4 amps wired in series into the sub-bus providing power to that area of the layout. Crandell
Crandell,
Can you provide a wiring schematic, or at least explain in laymen's terms, how to wire the auto tail light bulb in series?
Two wires I assume to the bulb but from where?
Thanks.
Rich
Alton Junction
In series, it would look like this ...
_______@______|
--------------------------|
where the '@' is the bulb, the solid/dashed lines are the two feeder wires, and the pipes are the rails above...
-Dan
Builder of Bowser steam! Railimages Site
NeO6874 In series, it would look like this ... _______@______| --------------------------| where the '@' is the bulb, the solid/dashed lines are the two feeder wires, and the pipes are the rails above...
Dan,
Thanks, this is helpful but bear with me. I am electronically challenged.
The 1156 bulb is simply wired on one side with one of the feeders from the rail and on the other side with a continuation of the feeder wire to the bus wire?
The other feeder wire from the other rail continues uninterrupted to the other bus wire?
richhotrain NeO6874: In series, it would look like this ... _______@______| --------------------------| where the '@' is the bulb, the solid/dashed lines are the two feeder wires, and the pipes are the rails above... Dan, Thanks, this is helpful but bear with me. I am electronically challenged. The 1156 bulb is simply wired on one side with one of the feeders from the rail and on the other side with a continuation of the feeder wire to the bus wire? The other feeder wire from the other rail continues uninterrupted to the other bus wire? Rich
NeO6874: In series, it would look like this ... _______@______| --------------------------| where the '@' is the bulb, the solid/dashed lines are the two feeder wires, and the pipes are the rails above...
Rich,
Wire 1: Power Supply Terminal A-> Side of bulb
Wire 2: Buttom contact point on bulb to track rail A.
Wire 3: track rail B to power supply Terminal B
The #1156 auto tail light bulb works good for a 5 amp system. If you have a smaller system 3 amp or less the bulb will not light. The bulb will not prevent shorts at all. You will still get shorts. It does keep the booster from shutting down. The bulb system should only be used for small districts that will not have more then 3 locos running. A tripping type circuit breaker is the best thing to use. The bulb will limit current but the short remains until you find it. By then it could be bye bye $100 sound decoder. I have seen the bulbs light up with just a consist of engines running and no short at all. I have also seen the bulbs light up and the switch point melt off the throw bar. There was also a time when a friend could not find a power loss to a section of layout. He searched for a week until he found a broken filament in a bulb.
Rich, my layout is an open rectangle with four frame section abutted against each other, locked together with a couple of lag bolts, nuts, and good sized washers. The wiring comprises two pairs of heavy speaker wire going 180 degrees from each other around the layout from where the Digitrax DB150 base station is located.
Each section is powered via a sub bus, this time 14 gauge single filament insulated wire. Since there are two bus wires, coming off each is a wire that makes the sub bus. The light bulb is soldered into any one of those two sub wires. I chose a wire, cut it, soldered the end closest to the bus to the nipple at the base of the bulb, and the other end is soldered to the chromed/nickel side of the 'cup'. That completes the circuit. It was a bit of a bother to get the one end soldered well to the nickel/chrome cup wall, but I got 'er done.
DigitalGriffin richhotrain: NeO6874: In series, it would look like this ... _______@______| --------------------------| where the '@' is the bulb, the solid/dashed lines are the two feeder wires, and the pipes are the rails above... Dan, Thanks, this is helpful but bear with me. I am electronically challenged. The 1156 bulb is simply wired on one side with one of the feeders from the rail and on the other side with a continuation of the feeder wire to the bus wire? The other feeder wire from the other rail continues uninterrupted to the other bus wire? Rich Rich, Wire 1: Power Supply Terminal A-> Side of bulb Wire 2: Buttom contact point on bulb to track rail A. Wire 3: track rail B to power supply Terminal B
richhotrain: NeO6874: In series, it would look like this ... _______@______| --------------------------| where the '@' is the bulb, the solid/dashed lines are the two feeder wires, and the pipes are the rails above... Dan, Thanks, this is helpful but bear with me. I am electronically challenged. The 1156 bulb is simply wired on one side with one of the feeders from the rail and on the other side with a continuation of the feeder wire to the bus wire? The other feeder wire from the other rail continues uninterrupted to the other bus wire? Rich
Thanks, DG, you stated it more elegantly than I did.
selector Rich, my layout is an open rectangle with four frame section abutted against each other, locked together with a couple of lag bolts, nuts, and good sized washers. The wiring comprises two pairs of heavy speaker wire going 180 degrees from each other around the layout from where the Digitrax DB150 base station is located. Each section is powered via a sub bus, this time 14 gauge single filament insulated wire. Since there are two bus wires, coming off each is a wire that makes the sub bus. The light bulb is soldered into any one of those two sub wires. I chose a wire, cut it, soldered the end closest to the bus to the nipple at the base of the bulb, and the other end is soldered to the chromed/nickel side of the 'cup'. That completes the circuit. It was a bit of a bother to get the one end soldered well to the nickel/chrome cup wall, but I got 'er done.
Excellent drawing, thanks Crandell.
locoi1sa The #1156 auto tail light bulb works good for a 5 amp system. If you have a smaller system 3 amp or less the bulb will not light. The bulb will not prevent shorts at all. You will still get shorts. It does keep the booster from shutting down. The bulb system should only be used for small districts that will not have more then 3 locos running. A tripping type circuit breaker is the best thing to use. The bulb will limit current but the short remains until you find it. By then it could be bye bye $100 sound decoder. I have seen the bulbs light up with just a consist of engines running and no short at all. I have also seen the bulbs light up and the switch point melt off the throw bar. There was also a time when a friend could not find a power loss to a section of layout. He searched for a week until he found a broken filament in a bulb. Pete
Pete,
I have a 5 amp system (NCE PH Pro), and I run my layout solo as a single power district. Sounds like I shouldn't bother with the 1156 bulb. Given adequate feeder wires throughout the layout, my command station should shut down in the event of a short. Agree?
Joe F. is a big proponent of the 1156 to keep the booster from shutting down the whole layout (or district) when a short occurs. To my way of thinking it complicates DCC wiring and is un-necessary for most layouts. I operate on several layouts besides my own and no one uses this system. We don't have problems with shorts. However, It does keep operators paying attention.
Two of the layouts are all one block ...Talk about pressure to not run points and be on your game...Guy
Guy, you are not alone - there is a continually repeated mantra of you must break your layout up, you must break your layout up. No, what you MUST do is have adequante bus and feeder wires so the booster can trip when it is supposed to and not melt your equipment, and you also need to work on your track so short circuit causing derailments don't happen. And maybe train your crews to pay attention to signals if you have them or at least pay attention to the track ahead so they stop nefore runnign a turnout lined against them and cause a short that way.
Our whole 14x120' club modular layotu has but 2 circuit breakers - east main and west main. DO shorts happen? once in a blue moon, usually when someoen is goofing around, forgets to reset one of the manual turnouts and runs against it on the next lap, or someone tries putting a large steam loco on the track and doesn;t have it even close when they plop it on the track. It's quite rare. Not annoying or often enough to justify the large outlay in circuit breakers it would take to divide the whole thing nto reasonable blocks. And bulbs are right out, as a modular, getting moved around a lot would end up breaking bulbs and troubleshooting that during setup would be a complete mess. Plus I simply do NOT like them. They don;t 'protect' anything. They allow 3-5 amps to keep flowing through that shorted truck on the track. Dick Bronson at RR-CirKits has a better idea, combining the bulb with a PTC fuse so that the light bulb handles the quick spikes like a short at a frog or something, and if the short remaisn for any length of time the PTC resistor switches in the second filament on the bulb to reduce the current even more. I suspect those oeprating with nothign but 1157 bulbs woudl ALSO have no problem without said bulbs - if you get momentary shorts through turnouts, fix your wheel gauge instead of masking the problem with a light bulb. Turnouts should NOT EVER cause a short unless you run into one set against you. If they do - there's a problem. Something is not right, either the wheels or the track are not in spec per the NMRA standards gauge. Fix that - no more shorts.
That's my rant for the day.
Guys, this is the OP again.
Thanks for the tips, and no, I wasn't going to forego feeders, just wondering if soldered sections could eliminate some, and it seems true.
However, you are on to a tangent here that worries me. Do you mean that simple derailments and trucks causing shorts now and then warrant systems of bulbs and or circuit breakers? That's the first I have heard of that. Do you mean just large layouts with boosters?
I don't have a need for boosters, so I have been told. (about 250 feet of track). Are you saying that if I run my Tsunamis off the rails somewhere they could fry? I have been using the old layout with the occasional derailment-short and never lost anything. Have I just been lucky?
If you have DCC, you have at least one booster. It has its own circuit breaker and if the quarter test works everywhere, you're good.
A 5 amp system will have a built in 5 amp circuit breaker. Some like to break that "main" breaker up into smaller power sub-districts. Those sub districts will each be protected by a circuit breaker with a trip current lower than the main booster's 5amp breaker. Doing so allows the power to stay on in other districts when on is shorted.
Works just like the service panel in your home. Overload the outlets in the kitchen and the breaker for the kitchen trips. Rest of the house stays lit.