Cleo3,
I have great respect for you for your service in Viet Nam. Thanks to you and many others for their service then and now.
I think some on this thread have confused you with the original poster of this thread. But, nevertheless, the OP asked for comments from "happy" PA2 users. It's unfortunate that some had to ignore that request and start the negativism. I can understand why this may have ticked you off, as it did with me, but sometimes there are smoother ways to handle such situations, especially in a public forum.
Anyway, I hope that we can get back to the original purpose of this thread.
Jerry
Rio Grande vs. Santa Fe.....the battle is over but the glory remains!
rrinker Ken runs NCE, not MRC. I don't think Tony or Howard run MRC either. --Randy
Ken runs NCE, not MRC. I don't think Tony or Howard run MRC either.
--Randy
Well Cleo, as you can see, passions run high on this subject and if nothing else you can see the magnitude of the PR problem that MRC faces.
MRC, one of the most respected names in the industry just a few short years ago, through miss-step after miss-step, horrendous quality control and some in-your-face advertising has reached the point where the company is reviled by many modellers. There are many now who simply don't take the company seriously and most certainly don't consider them a leader in DCC.
Santa Fe all the way's attempt to have a users meeting was of course well intended, but feelings run high. There is a sense of utter incredulity that MRC would shun the use of the most respected and utilized computer application for DCC programming and control. It smacks of utter arrogance again on the part of the company and further fans the flames of anti-MRC sentiment.
Do a search on the forum, you will be very hard pressed to find any genuine criticism of the Prodigy Sq command station. Most freely acknowledge the fact that it is an easy to use, apparently reliable, well priced system, backed by little in the way of web resource and improving telephone support. But you can't easily separate the product from the company. This thread was an attempt to discuss the system in isolation without any of the other factors that determine reputation. As you can see, this is a very hard thing to do.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
cleo3This whole post was supposed to be about the Prodigy Squared system. So why is it that you and David B keep slamming people because you don't like MRC decoders? My issue is the fact that anytime someone has a different OPINION than you or David B they get slammed. Believe me, we all know how you feel about MRC by now!!!
I'm not a DCC user yet, so I have no axe to grind - other than some disappointment with MRC's proprietary attitude to their high end DC products. As an electrical engineer, these sorts of things interest me, so I have investigated DCC systems both on line and at my LHS.
Cleo, you started off with how you love your PA2 system, claiming it was reliable and otherwise great. How do you know it's reliable? From a statistic of one? Based on reports in various forums (the best measure of reliability stats I have so far), I would say PA2 is indeed on a par with the other systems for reliability. There are some reported failures, but the numbers seem to be reasonable for any of the major systems.
Any failure is a severe disappointment to the individual making a significant purchase. From the corporate perspective, it is often considered "good enough" to have a percentage rate failure about the same as your competitors. That may be OK when you are selling millions of an electronic widget, but it doesn't work so well when you are selling well under 10K DCC units to guys who will vent their unhappiness to other model railroaders. Then, how the irate customer is handled is everything, much more powerful than advertising. Ask BLI, Blackstone, and Bachmann how they know this. And even they have lost customers and gotten bad word of mouth when they failed to make the customer with the defective locomotive happy.
But you have taken the thin-skinned approach to any criticism of MRC. And I didn't know you were entitled to control a thread just because you made the 1st post.
When I consider a major electronics purchase - $50 or more to me - I prefer to read reviews first. I usually only focus on the negative reviews, as they generally provide more useful information. A single negative review doesn't bother me, but a pattern or common point of complaints gets my attention fast. If many users have the same complaint, there is a good chance I will experience the same issue.
I, for one, do appreciate David B and other comments from actual users of various DCC components. David is a professional installer who has to stand behind his work even when the end user messes things up through ignorance or negligence. Hence, ultra-reliability of his installations is critical. Because I may value other features or points above ultra-reliability, I may choose differently than he would suggest. Regardless, I listen and read what others have to say about MRC products.
So when David and others show through numbers of complaints that MRC DCC decoders have a high failure rate out of the box, tend to fail early when they do work, and suffer from lack of attention in engineering and workmanship, I listen. When I realize that MRC is ignoring the chorus of complaints, and apparently not making any real product improvements, I realize I probably don't want an MRC DCC decoder.
But you only wanted to talk about the control side.
On the PA and PA2 front, there are many MRC believers from DC days that want MRC to succeed in DCC. The PA and PA2 were/are competitive DCC control systems. And they might have been superior had MRC cooperated with JMRI with their computer interface. Unfortunately, they have chosen the proprietary route which gives MRC a software maintenance headache. They can't possibly expend the resources that the volunteers at JMRI do to track down and program the specs on every single decoder, especially over the long term. So the computer interface will always be inferior to JMRI/Decoder Pro. (FWIW, a similar situation is occurring in track planning software. Regardless of what you think about the individual programs, the volunteers at XtrkCad do a better job of updating track libraries than any of the commercial products can afford to do.) And because the JMRI source code is open, it won't die when a given manufacturer decides to pull the plug.
As others have suggested, if you want to open a cheering section for MRC to justify your purchase of their equipment, the Yahoo Group is probably more appropriate. This forum appears to have gotten tired of posters that say, "I love my XXXX" without any reasoning or supporting rationale for their choice. Yes, I wince at the assumption that only Digitrax and NCE matter in the DCC world. There are at least 5 other manufacturers out there - Zimo, Bachmann, MRC, CVP, and Lenz - all of which make capable systems with both good and not-so-good points.
Obviously, I'm prejudiced towards open source and common standards. MRC favors the opposite direction, and has done so for decades. I tend to be attracted to manufacturers that are very forthcoming about how their product is designed, and how to use it and maintain it. It puts those guys one leg up on the competition when it comes to my purchasing dollar. So Lenz, CVP, NCE, and especially Digitrax start out quite high on my list. MRC, Bachmann, and Zimo start out lower. Just like Sony starts out low on my list due to their design arrogance and insistence on proprietary solutions. Other features can overcome the initial positioning, but that's my starting point.
enough of my soapbox
Fred W
All that from someone who was the proud owner of a Bachman EZ Command no later than March 24 2010.
Jack W.
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Man your as thick as a brick, I can see this post is going to get locked so let me speak my piece. Not defending David B, as he of all people here is more then capable of firing back enough salvo's to sink a battle ship of comments but do you even bother to read his entire post and not just skim over the highlights? He like myself have no qualms regarding MRC's command stations aka DCC system but rather with their obviously substandard decoders. Do us all a favor and search the archives of posts and see how many negative comments are posted about Digitrax, NCE, TCS,Lenze or another other dcc decoder on the market. I will venture to say little or none. The reason why MRC is such an easy target for negative feedback and justifiably so is that they make complete and utter garbage. Maybe the fact that you have only 33 or shall I say now 35 or 36 posts it's reflective in the fact that either you haven't been here that long nor have you bothered to read many of the posts regarding MRC decoders. It's a simple fact that if so many people who have no affiliation with each other all come up with the same conclusion that there has to be a strong foundation to support their argument. If you READ the post you will see that it's not bashing but rather people voicing their angry opinion for getting ripped off by a company who makes, obviously far fetched and ridiculous claims. If you don't want to believe the members of this board and live in ignorant bliss thinking MRC is the be all to end all when it comes to DCC system of choice then be happy in your blindness. If you really want to find out form people who really know check out some of the more well accomplished model railroad builders or large clubs in the country and see what they run. Here in NJ we have "The Model Railroad Club" of Union NJ one of the largest club layouts in the country they run Digitrax, Ken McCorry's Conrail layout possibly one of the largest home layouts in the country, Ken runs NCE Howard Zane, and Tony Koester both run NCE and I could keep going on and on. So if that doesn't tell you something then maybe it's not worth the effort to try and explain to you. There is no question MRC systems are ok but have a great number of limitations you can argue that fact to the cows come home but facts are facts and facts are what win debates.
Saw that coming
Cleo, before commenting all you have to do is read the person's old posts to see if he/she knows what they're talking about. And no Dave, i'm not calling you a Heshee
Springfield PA
What's somewhat frightening is they felt the need to use a full size through-hole voltage regulator AND felt it needed a heat sink. Isn't this an HO decoder? The only decoders I've ever seen like that were for O and large, 4 amp plus.Every HO and smaller decoder I've seen has a simple SMT regulator and no extra heat sink required.
The basic issue is with MRC's decoders and not the prodigy system. There aren't many people I've seen that have used MRC decoders and haven't had one or more just stop working. The quality is poor. That tends to bleed over to their other products. After working with their decoders and visiting their site I find it scary that they make helicopters and airplanes. I hope they aren't using the same advanced technology in those as they are in DCC decoders. .
Here's a couple of pics of an MRC sound decoder taken out of a brand new Athearn SD60i about a year or so ago. It looks like a blind person constructed it and looks like it could fall apart if you sneezed on it.
Here's a pic of the Soundtraxx that replaced it:
Now from the MRC site they state "MRC's Model Railroad decoders are world renowned for their highest quality, brilliant design and most importantly, their dependability."
This is the reason for the MRC bashing and it's nothing against the users or user groups.
I for one actually hope represetatives of MRC do read these forums, and see what their business practices are doing to their word of mouth reputation.
I also hope they see that they still have time to do something about it, but that from the way it sounds, they may be headed down a mighty unfriendly path, if they don't.
I see several possible fixes, and two are free of cost or nearly so.
1 Tone down the boasting. It's alright to claim to be the best, but don't throw rocks from a glass house, and don't ooh and ah, over a new MRC feature that the competition already has. (Imagine the wonder of having the incredible ability to control trains.......FROM A HAND HELD KNOB!!! MRC brings it to you!)
2 Release your code for the PC interface. I might actually be interested in JMRI for things other than decoder programming if it worked with my DCC system.
3 Make a better quality, more logical decoder. Volume settings of only 9, 10 or 11 (out of 10) that have to be set for each sound is ridiculous.
I'm a satisfied PA user, and some of this stuff makes me wince.
1. Reread his post, and keep in mind he posted that on a thread that on a Prodigy Squared Users Club thread. Kinda like going to the old wooden boat club site and saying that wooden boat are worthless.
2. Since I am usually a very positive poster and I dont normally like to offend or upset people, I will stop posting on this thread and not bring up MRC again on this site.
3. I apologize for losing my temper, it won't happen again.
Santa Fe all the way! Welcome to the Prodigy Squared Users Club thread Allegheny 2-6-6-6! Your getting slow in your old age, it took you a couple of days before you came to, basically call our DCC system useless, with no viable use, not even on a test track. Man, you must be a blast at a club layout, " hey, you know you painted that loco with the wrong shade of black" I've been watching this forum for over a year now and I'd like to have a dollar for every time Mr Negative ( YOU) craps on someones thread. Theres my two cents worth.
Welcome to the Prodigy Squared Users Club thread Allegheny 2-6-6-6! Your getting slow in your old age, it took you a couple of days before you came to, basically call our DCC system useless, with no viable use, not even on a test track. Man, you must be a blast at a club layout, " hey, you know you painted that loco with the wrong shade of black" I've been watching this forum for over a year now and I'd like to have a dollar for every time Mr Negative ( YOU) craps on someones thread. Theres my two cents worth.
While I agree "Allegheny 2-6-6-6" came out rather hard on your beloved system, your personal attack has no place in this list. Please reread "mfm37" reply of May 24 2010 to your thread and act accordingly.
I urge you to join the Yahoo MRC group, there only Digitrax and NCE bashing is acceptable.
Allegheny2-6-6-6 When I was in the transition of replacing the old layout that was damaged when the furnace blow back left about an inch of oily soot all over the layout I picked up a Prodigy Advance Squared unit form a LHS going out of business for a steal. It seemed to be all I need/wanted but t like anything else if you've never had anything to compare it to how would you know what you had or had not. The first time I operated and NCE system and had someone who was very knowledgeable more so then the average train guy I saw instantly the short comings of the unit. Yes there is no question what others like David B. have said the company consists of arrogant, liars and self promoting idiots at best. Some times for me if the company's customer service exceed their products short comings I will take that into account and may consider doing business with them, this is not the case with MRC. I have come so close to wanting to reach through the phone and choke the little arrogant SOB in their repair department that I had to think better of it being as I am only about a 30 to 40 minute adrenalin filled ride form them. Said customer service jerk quickly changed his tone when I informed him of such and said I had a credit card reserved solely for the purpose of bail money when dealing with idiots like himself. One can not even substantiate the argument that it's a good entry level system a cheap way to get into dcc when you can purchase NCE's starter set up for around $150 I have found the only viable sue for my MRC Prodigy advance squared is using it on my test track. I was using it to program locomotives but I will be doing that via my computer so it no resides in it's final resting place.
When I was in the transition of replacing the old layout that was damaged when the furnace blow back left about an inch of oily soot all over the layout I picked up a Prodigy Advance Squared unit form a LHS going out of business for a steal. It seemed to be all I need/wanted but t like anything else if you've never had anything to compare it to how would you know what you had or had not. The first time I operated and NCE system and had someone who was very knowledgeable more so then the average train guy I saw instantly the short comings of the unit.
Yes there is no question what others like David B. have said the company consists of arrogant, liars and self promoting idiots at best. Some times for me if the company's customer service exceed their products short comings I will take that into account and may consider doing business with them, this is not the case with MRC. I have come so close to wanting to reach through the phone and choke the little arrogant SOB in their repair department that I had to think better of it being as I am only about a 30 to 40 minute adrenalin filled ride form them. Said customer service jerk quickly changed his tone when I informed him of such and said I had a credit card reserved solely for the purpose of bail money when dealing with idiots like himself.
One can not even substantiate the argument that it's a good entry level system a cheap way to get into dcc when you can purchase NCE's starter set up for around $150
I have found the only viable sue for my MRC Prodigy advance squared is using it on my test track. I was using it to program locomotives but I will be doing that via my computer so it no resides in it's final resting place.
Santa Fe all the way! Two additional thoughts. First, I just programmed a F unit to run backwards by programming 29 with 39. Pushed a couple of buttons and there you go, very simple. Second, I started this thread because of all the MRC bashing, I thought it would be a nice place for Prodigy users to converse without being bashed.
Two additional thoughts. First, I just programmed a F unit to run backwards by programming 29 with 39. Pushed a couple of buttons and there you go, very simple. Second, I started this thread because of all the MRC bashing, I thought it would be a nice place for Prodigy users to converse without being bashed.
If you have not done it yet, I suggest you join the MRC Yahoo Group, you will find lots of friendly and knowledgeable guys there.
Changing the value of a single CV is the same easy procedure with all 3 systems I used, that is Digitrax, MRC and NCE.
I have the Prodigy Express system with an extra Prodigy Advanced handheld. I think it is a great system for the cost. I bought the Advanced handheld to throw my DCC equiped turnouts and to read CV's. Haven't had any problems with the system in 3 years of use. MRC has a good group on yahoo that has alot of useful information.
Mike Kingsbury
CSX RobertIt is true that you can not set locos to run back-to-back in an advanced consist with the Express using the consist function to build the consist,; however, you do not have to program CV29 to do it. That is what MRC suggests doing in their "Prodigy Tips and Tricks" document, but it makes more sense to just skip the consist function of the throttle and program CV19 manually, adding 128 to the consist address if you want the engine reversed.
Of course you are right, this is the method I use when I want to built permanent and mobile consist independent of any command station. I don't think everyone is familiar or at ease with CV19 programming.
There are other ways that is JMRI or MRC own computer interface to built Advance consist, but so far most intervenants said a computer interface was not a needed tool.
jalajoieThe Express does not have an elegant way to run locos back to back in an Advance consist and will not support Universal consisting. If one wants to run a consist back to back he has to thinker with CV29, an awkward work around as far as I am concerned and enough to be a deal breaker for me.
SantaFe, I think a big reason you don't see much reccomendation of the MRC systems is that our flame suits have burned through...
Ruderunner I think the bigest reason for the system not getting recomended by it's satisfied user's is the fact that I for one just get tired of hearing everyone bash MRC any time it get's mentioned. I am not even going to bash there decoder's since I have 2 that have never casued me a problem, along with 3 sound trax lc's. Just making a point not starting a war.
I've had my PA for over 5 years and it fits my needs very well. It's not the squared version, though.
I won't spend much time on their decoders, other than to say they are missing an enourmous opportunity by not marketing a decoder that is on par with their control system, and are obviously damaging their reputation in the process.
What I like about the PA is the easy to use throttle with the phone style (123-456-789) numeric buttons, and +/- buttons with a different tactile feel, although I mainly use the wheel for speed control. I like that there are indicators for active functions and that the display is large and clear.
I like the easy programming of crucial and common CV values with descriptions such as "address, SV, TV, ACC, DEC", etc. I like the recall feature for retaining loco numbers. I like that the display flashes when you select a loco that is in another throttle's recal stack, (but that you are NOT required to "dispatch" that loco from the other throttle).
I like that you can make extension jacks from easily available and relatively cheap Cat5 network cable and accesories.
I also like the built in fast clock, although I wish it could be set to 3:1. Currently 4:1 is the slowest setting.
I am not crazy about the fact that the detents in the wheel do not directly corespond with an increase in speed setting. I am slightly irritated that sometimes previously selected locos are not in the recal stack after a power cycle, and that sometimes a non-selected loco has a speed setting after a power cycle.
Wireless is not a major importance to me but I may add one or more at a later date.
A generic computer interface is not important to me, as I have standardized on LokSound and QSI decoders, and use their programmers for setting values specific to those decoders, such as function remapping and sound slot assignments. This also give me the ability to store "templates" for configuring decoders.
Consisting is not an issue, as I simply set all the loco addresses to that of the lead unit. This takes about 30 seconds. * most of my "consists" are cab units and nearly always run together. When doubleheading steam, I prefer to control each loco independantly, via the recal stack, as I feel this more accurately represents prototype operation.
Amperage has not been a factor. I usually run two or three locos at a time, but have about 12 to 20 sitting on the powered track. 90% of my active locos are sound equipped.
All in all this system has met nearly all of my requiremtns in a cost effective way.
I have spent about $290 for two complete systems and one additional throttle, plus another $25 for three addtional double extension jacks on about 15' runs. this gives me three throttles and an extra base station in case of emergency.
Truck I have both the MRC Prod. ADV.... And as far as the DCC system goes I could not belive the amount of steps the LHS owner had to go through on his Digitrax system just to address a four digit loco, on the MRC it is half the work... Thanks,TRUCK.
I have both the MRC Prod. ADV....
And as far as the DCC system goes I could not belive the amount of steps the LHS owner had to go through on his Digitrax system just to address a four digit loco, on the MRC it is half the work...
Thanks,TRUCK.
I slight "mise au point" here I am a regular user of Digitrax and NCE system and did use the Prodigy Adv on four occasions, the last time about a month ago when I teach an Hobby Shop owner how to use his Prodigy system (Programming address, Acquiring locos and Running them).
I can assure you acquiring a 4 digits address on all 3 system is exactly the same keystroke for keystroke. I don't think your comment is up to date.
ruderunner I use Prodigy Express, had it about a year now. It does everything I need it to do and plenty of things I may never need. Sure a computer interface is nice...
I use Prodigy Express, had it about a year now. It does everything I need it to do and plenty of things I may never need. Sure a computer interface is nice...
The Express does not have an elegant way to run locos back to back in an Advance consist and will not support Universal consisting. If one wants to run a consist back to back he has to thinker with CV29, an awkward work around as far as I am concerned and enough to be a deal breaker for me.
The lack of Universal Consist support means you can't consist MTH locos.
I don't remember for sure but I also think the Express can't read CV.
Of course the Prodigy Advance does not have these limitations.
Edsels failed because of poor marketing not because they were bad cars so the comparison doesn't fit.
The title of the thread implies that one actually own and use a Prodigy system so if you just want to regurgitate things you've read without first hand experience then join any of the other MRC bash threads. If you have and use a Prodigy and have a problem then come forth.
Modeling the Cleveland and Pittsburgh during the PennCentral era starting on the Cleveland lakefront and ending in Mingo junction