I have yet to be able to just plug in a sound decoder and run a loco. In almost every case, there isn't enough room to put a sound decoder on top of the regular light board. In every case, I have had to remove the light board and hard wire the decoder into the loco. Then with the light board gone, I have to use the proper resistor for the lights. Perhaps a tiny silent decoder could be fit in somewhere, along with the regular light board, but not a sound decoder. Am I the only one who finds it this way?
It's DCC ready, not DCC+Sound ready.
Will
You did not understand the full meaning of DCC Ready. The term does not mean any decoder/speaker will fit in the loco or tender. You have to know the capabilities of your install.
You have to do some home work and ask in a forum Before buying the products. Some locos are easier than others. Don't make assumptions. It is not a cruel joke or the manufactures fault.
I would never try to put a big block V8 in a car without doing some home work first. I learned that in the late 1950s. Some emgine installs required a lot of work to “upgrade”.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
I believe it is a cruel marketing term. It means, "C'mon, Bud, plunk some cash down for this bad boy. Sure you can get a decoder in it...heck, my Grandma could do it in her sleep." You may be lucky and find the motor truly isolated from the frame, or that there is space for a speaker of a size, or that their is space for the decoder and a harness that will actually work when you get the decoder.
You may. May not.
-Crandell
I found a NYC A and B set EMD HO F7 for $99.00 at the Broadway site that is DC only.
I found out they also come with DCC ready and DCC with sound. Some research shows I can install a decoder and speaker in each unit. I do not know how right now.
When I get them, I will then check the insides to see what kind of room I have for decoder and speaker.
Then I will order the DCC items as all DCC companies show the dimensions of the decoder and speaker.
A little bit of research can go a long way.
Try it, you will like it.
No research neccessary. If I want a loco, I buy it. I've done dozens of sound installs. I just get a little bummed at the term DCC ready, and the eight pin plug on the decoder, which I always have to cut off. It just makes extra work.
To the OP and Crandell,
I don't really want to start the whole RTR vs "building models" thing here, but last time I checked it was still largely a hobby of building things, be it the locomotives and rolling stock by some of us or at least the layout and structures by most all.
There is simply no way every manufacturer can make sure every loco they build is "easy" enough for the desired "skill level" or "easyness level" of every person who might buy it without checking it out first. Especially since most don't make or sell decoders and the range of products you may try to install is large.
The more the RTR "group" pushes for that kind of thing, the more prices will increase and the hobby will move toward a "Marklin" or "MTH" kind of modeling.
And on that note I am glad I have most of the locos and rolling stock I need/want for my modeling goals because those kind of prices would drive me right out of the hobby. Not to mention that I like to build/modify stuff and as more is made "RTR", and in a manner that is hard to disassemble, it gets more difficult to "rework" or "kitbash". Manufacturers - this may be partly why your market is shrinking?
If you don't want to install the decoders, pay the big bucks for the ones that come with sound and DCC. As another poster said "its DCC ready, not sound and DCC ready". Many of those I know woh use DCC and do lots of decoder installs say that for many reasons they prefer to remove all thatstuff and hardwire the decoder. I know from several that Bachmann locos in particular can benifit from this.
Note to all - I know the manufacturers follow this forum, so this post is intended to be a message to them as much as to those discussing the topic.
Personally, the few locos that I must buy with decoders, get them taken out, and sometimes more weight added in their place. And sometimes those factory lighting boards go too in favor of simpler wiring. But I don't complain, other than to continue to remind the manufacturers that many of us still want DC locomotives and are very happy with the current "DCC ready" models, or even those with easily removed low cost decoders.
Sheldon
hobo9941 I have yet to be able to just plug in a sound decoder and run a loco. In almost every case, there isn't enough room to put a sound decoder on top of the regular light board. In every case, I have had to remove the light board and hard wire the decoder into the loco. Then with the light board gone, I have to use the proper resistor for the lights. Perhaps a tiny silent decoder could be fit in somewhere, along with the regular light board, but not a sound decoder. Am I the only one who finds it this way?
Hobo,
I feel your pain. In its crudest sense, I suppose DCC Ready means nothing more than the fact that the manufacturer has isolated the motor from the frame.
Here is what Loys Toys says about DCC Ready:
The real meaning of DCC Ready is that the loco is pre-wired with an NMRA-recommended socket. All you have to do to install a decoder is unplug the dummy plug that is plugged into that socket and plug a decoder in that has an NMRA-recommended plug that matches the socket.
It sure would be nice if DCC Ready meant that there is sufficient space and pre-wiring to simply drop in a decoder with sound board and speaker. But, we ain't there yet.
Alton Junction
I think the main point of all this is that the term "DCC-ready" means different things to different manufacturers, rather than be a universally consistent and understood term.
For some manufacturers it just means the motor is isolated from the frame. For other manufacturers it means that an 8-pin NMRA socket has been added. And, as others have stated, you have to do your homework to find out what it will take to get your "DCC-ready" locomotive to the "DCC-equipped" point.
Since locomotives are NOT all the same size, it would be difficult to make them all "sound-ready" as some would become very light on the pulling because some of the chassis or frame would need to be removed in order to fit a speaker and/or decoder under the hood.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
richhotrainIt sure would be nice if DCC Ready meant that there is sufficient space and pre-wiring to simply drop in a decoder with sound board and speaker. But, we ain't there yet.
Maybe we need a new designation "DCC with sound ready"? Are we talking steam or diesel here? How "ready" does it need to be? Do they need to tell you in advance which decoders fit and which don't?
Nobody tells me in advance about all the built in electronics trash in these new locomotives that does not work well with my advanced DC throttles. I have to buy them, test them, figure it out and modify them to run to my standards on my equipment. In one form or another this has always been true, likely always will.
Well, actually the second guy to respond did suggest he 'do his homework' before buying.
It's important for the OP to remember that a sound decoder is generally a lot larger than a standard decoder. As he supposes, many engines now have lightboards with an eight-pin plug that will readily accept a silent DCC decoder plug-in with no trouble. However, for adding sound unless you have a lot of room (like an E or F unit or a dummy unit, or a steam loco tender) you're normally better off using a lightboard replacement sound decoder. That way the decoder doesn't take up any more space than the lightboard did, and you just need to find space for a speaker. I find a 1/4" x 1/2" speaker will work fine and fit in most any diesel.
As others have noted, there is no set meaning for "DCC Ready", it just means whatever the manufacturer wants it to mean - anything from having an eight-pin receptacle, to just having enough room to fit in a decoder. Still, any engine can be converted to DCC if you really want to. I've had several engines that required the motor be insulated from the frame before installing the decoder, it's not that hard. It's often just a matter of putting a piece of tape in the right place.
The title of the thread says it all.
"DCC Ready" is nothing but marketing. Some manufacturers choose to interpret this as "plug and play" so you really just need to pop in a decoder and run. Others seem to think it means "Are you ready to isolate the motor, remove common frame-based headlight grounds, and mill out a section of the frame weight to fit a decoder into this engine?"
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
MisterBeasley The title of the thread says it all. "DCC Ready" is nothing but marketing. Some manufacturers choose to interpret this as "plug and play" so you really just need to pop in a decoder and run. Others seem to think it means "Are you ready to isolate the motor, remove common frame-based headlight grounds, and mill out a section of the frame weight to fit a decoder into this engine?"
Precisely.
DCC with sound is standard...does anyone here have a report that they got a "DCC with sound" engine that didn't have a speaker in it...say? Or maybe it came with a speaker, but it didn't have the decoder? Would that be okay...just a marketing ploy?
No, I don't think so. If we all understand what "DCC with sound" means, why is it acceptable to have "DCC ready" mean nothing at all in some cases? Why the double-standard? To me, it is unethical because it is duplicitous. Why should I have to resort to google to find out that DCC-ready means different things in different engines made by the same manufacturer when having to google "DCC with sound" would have a succinct and consistent meaning?
Two issues here. Ready for DCC, and ready for DCC with sound.
If you want DCC ready, all you have to do is look at the Atlas Silver Series line of diesels. Pop out the jumper plug and pop in the motor decoder. If you want DCC with sound ready, you can look at the Blue Line locomotives. Pop out the jumper plug, and install a motor decoder.
It is also relatively easy to install sound in an Atlas Silver series loco without removing the light board. I put a plug in sound/motor decoder into an Atlas Trainman diesel (mechanism same as a Silver Series) and installed the speaker into the cab with a little work. It was not that hard, and if a fumblefingers like myself can do it, so can't everyone else. Probably took less time to install than it would have taken me to complain about the deviousness, deceit, and mis-representation of the various manufacturers.
maxmanProbably took less time to install than it would have taken me to complain about the deviousness, deceit, and mis-representation of the various manufacturers
The OP will be happy to learn he launched a needless discussion.
selector maxmanProbably took less time to install than it would have taken me to complain about the deviousness, deceit, and mis-representation of the various manufacturers The OP will be happy to learn he launched a needless discussion. -Crandell
I never said that the OP launched a needless discussion. I was merely expanding on my post. My comment on the deviousness, etc, was not directed at the OP, but was meant to be an opposing opinion to those who sort of implied that there was a plot, if you will, by some manufacturers to intentionally label something as DCC ready when that was not the case.
However, since I apparently am not supposed to do this, then the OP's question was:
"Am I the only one who finds it this way?"
And my answer then will become "I don't agree".
selector DCC with sound is standard
Standard? Who's standard. There are products out there with just DCC, products with DCC and sound, and products with 8 pin plugs with jumpers installed.
Sure, as manufcturers make the move to sound they will use the same frame/chassis for all versions, but come on now "DCC with sound is standard", that's a stretch.
For at least half of us, neither DCC or sound is "standard".
My roster is mainly steamers and predominately Bachmann Spectrum engines. These engines when first released were marketed as DCC ready. Those engines had a plug installed in the tender. Later Bachmann installed DCC in some of their engines and marketed them as DCC on Board. Same engines except there was now a DCC decoder in place and the headlights were no longer bulbs but LED's. There was no special provision in either the DCC Ready or DCC on Board for mounting speakers for those who would add sound to any of these engines.
Later Bachmann marketed DCC/SOUND steam engines. These of course had sound installed and there were perforations in the tender floors for the speakers.
It appears that the DCC on Board Spectrum steamers being produced are now paired with tenders that are perforated for speakers, should the owners opt to add sound later.
Given the number of Spectrum steamers Bachmann produces you can find "new" engines in a variety of options, DCC Ready, DCC on Board and DCC/SOUND on Board.
Atlas Silver locomotives are a nice example of a loco that uses the same chassis as its sound equiped brethren and thus have a location in which to place speaker (s). I would think that most manufacturers today who are making both sound and non sound would use the same chassis for each, making production quite a bit simpler.
One of my boys just picked up and Athearn R to R Dash 9. I has both an NMRA 8 pin socket and 9 pin plug. The 8 pin socket is set so high off the board that there was not room between it and the shell to even get an 8 pin plug installed. So much for DCC plug and play, I had to remove the socket and just soldered the decoder plug right to the board.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
Hobo, your first post is correct. YOU are the ONLY one who has EVER had a problem installing ANY decoder, sound or otherwise in ANY loco. What are you ? Clumsy?
In fact, on most DCC ready products you're lucky if a small decoder will fit. I have used N or even Z scale decoders to make an installation work. Sound? Well, it's nice if the loco has a tender....
It just proves there is still a need to be able to "build" in the hobby.
Tilden
Whatever!!!
Before this gets locked or deleted I will post what has been on my mind about DCC ready. Just a few years ago most manufactures started putting the 8 pin plugs in the locos for a decoder. Just because the plug was there did not mean it was DCC ready. Remember the P2K SW1 locos? Bachmann with the caps on the light boards? Most manufactures today make it a lot simpler to add DCC. Sound is another thing altogether. Just like life itself there are no rules. Someone may cry today that they can not put a 1 inch speaker with enclosure in an RS3 blindfolded. The manufactures will someday make the locos sound ready with plenty of room for the 1 inch speaker. Then what will someone cry about? How about this, Waaaa I can't put this 4 inch speaker and 50 watt amplifier in this N scale AC4400! Why can't the manufacture make it easy for me? What is wrong with today's modeler? Why is any one wining about stuffing sound in a loco not built for sound? Maybe the manufactures should just sell boxes of loco parts and let the customer do the building. That would get them off the hook for not making it easy.
OK Selector you can lock this now.
Pete
SRY Had a bad day and needed to vent.
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
Well, there you have it. DCC ready means you can simply remove the jumper, plug in the 8 pin plug and you are ready to run........so long as you don't want to put the shell back on.
If you access the website for TCS decoders, they have provided detailed photos of decoder installations (their's of course) in a variety of diesel locos. you can then see how much room is inside the shell to fit decoders and speakers (or not). I haven't looked anywhere else, but my best guess is that other mfr.'s may do the same (I only use TCS decoders, made in the USA). Gerry S.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL selector DCC with sound is standard Standard? Who's standard. There are products out there with just DCC, products with DCC and sound, and products with 8 pin plugs with jumpers installed. Sure, as manufcturers make the move to sound they will use the same frame/chassis for all versions, but come on now "DCC with sound is standard", that's a stretch. For at least half of us, neither DCC or sound is "standard". Sheldon
I would have been better to use the term "standardized", but there it is.
ATLANTIC CENTRALselector DCC with sound is standard Standard? Who's standard. There are products out there with just DCC, products with DCC and sound, and products with 8 pin plugs with jumpers installed. Sure, as manufcturers make the move to sound they will use the same frame/chassis for all versions, but come on now "DCC with sound is standard", that's a stretch. Sheldon
Hold on, Sheldon. I believe you're reading more into Crandell's statement than he intended and looking for an argument that isn't there.
If I understanding Crandell correctly, I think he is stating that: In contrast to the moving definition of what manufactures deem as "DCC-ready", the term "DCC with sound" is generally a more clearly understood "standard" by everyone (just as DC is a "standard"); NOT that it is THE standard.
[Edit: Well, it looks like I was right in my understanding and Crandell has beaten me to the clarification.]
tstageATLANTIC CENTRAL selector DCC with sound is standard Standard? Who's standard. There are products out there with just DCC, products with DCC and sound, and products with 8 pin plugs with jumpers installed. Sure, as manufcturers make the move to sound they will use the same frame/chassis for all versions, but come on now "DCC with sound is standard", that's a stretch. Sheldon Hold on, Sheldon. I believe you're reading more into Crandell's statement than he intended and looking for an argument that isn't there. If I understanding Crandell correctly, I think he is stating that: In contrast to the moving definition of what manufactures deem as "DCC-ready", the term "DCC with sound" is generally a more clearly understood "standard" by everyone (just as DC is a "standard"); NOT that it is THE standard. Tom [Edit: Well, it looks like I was right in my understanding and Crandell has beaten me to the clarification.]
ATLANTIC CENTRAL selector DCC with sound is standard Standard? Who's standard. There are products out there with just DCC, products with DCC and sound, and products with 8 pin plugs with jumpers installed. Sure, as manufcturers make the move to sound they will use the same frame/chassis for all versions, but come on now "DCC with sound is standard", that's a stretch. Sheldon
My appoligies to Crandell, I misunderstood his meaning.
And again to be clear, my interest in this thread is not to give anyone a hard time about DCC or sound, but to simply cast my vote with the manufacurers who are "watching" that the current DC (DCC ready) products suit the needs of many of us just fine.
And again, no offense to those of you who like "RTR perfection", but I am concerned about the rising cost of such models and I see that as not necessarily good for the hobby.
Just my view,
Ok, the OP hit it right on the head.
This is all a conspiracy by DCC manufactures to rip us off. I finally got it.Sigh.
I sympathize with the OP. From looking at what available it was clear to me that DCC-ready doesn't mean easy installation. For example Proto 2000 F7 units that are DCC ready, internally lack the space for speaker that a DCC w/Sound units have - ask me how I know.
What's more, when you add cost of a respectable decoder, speaker and time spend on installing it - it's generally not worth buying DCC-ready first, and then upgrading loco.
I had a benefit of just getting into the hobby, so every loco I buy is DCC w/Sound. Consider a Spectrum J-Class: A DCC w/Sound with nice Tsunami decoder costs on average $200. A plain or DCC version costs around $150. A stand alone Tsunami decoder will cost you on average $100, + speaker + spending time soldering, bulb resistors etc - you probably looking at $300 for the DCC-ready unit you've upgraded vs factory installed sound. You might argue that Bachmann Tsunami is limted etc etc - but for 99% of users it provides same features and experience. Unless it's some rare European or Japanese model, or you get DCC-ready loco for almost free, I don't see why one would not go for factory installed DCC & Sound.
CSX RobertComparing "DCC Ready" to "with DCC and sound" does not make any sense context
"Ready to eat...just heat." What should that mean in a food industry?
"Instant...just add water." Sounds straighforward, something that all would agree to?
"Ready to use. Batteries not included." We would all agree on what this means?
"DCC ready." How is that working out for us?
If those two words are good enough to be used across the hobby, they should mean something across the hobby. They don't, and that is the nub of it. Some manufacturers offer less 'readiness' than others, clearly, and it is incumbent upon the buyer to know how ready ready is. Problem is, the degree of readiness, and what used to be blatant misrepresentation when they were no different from straight DC products form the 80's, is not inherent in the two words deliberately used on the packaging to entice the buyer. If for Manufacturer B nothing was changed except adding two words to the boxes, but manufacturer A actually modified the mounting of the motor in order to fully isolate it, which manufacturer has more legitimacy in the claim to being DCC ready?