hobo9941 I have yet to be able to just plug in a sound decoder and run a loco. In almost every case, there isn't enough room to put a sound decoder on top of the regular light board. In every case, I have had to remove the light board and hard wire the decoder into the loco. Then with the light board gone, I have to use the proper resistor for the lights. Perhaps a tiny silent decoder could be fit in somewhere, along with the regular light board, but not a sound decoder. Am I the only one who finds it this way?
I have yet to be able to just plug in a sound decoder and run a loco. In almost every case, there isn't enough room to put a sound decoder on top of the regular light board. In every case, I have had to remove the light board and hard wire the decoder into the loco. Then with the light board gone, I have to use the proper resistor for the lights. Perhaps a tiny silent decoder could be fit in somewhere, along with the regular light board, but not a sound decoder. Am I the only one who finds it this way?
Many of the newer Kato HO units are pretty plug in play, even for sound. They have a socket already in the fuel tank for a 28mm speaker and an 8 pin plug (no resistors needed if you use the right decoders). I agree that adding decoders, especially with sound, is more difficult on some units than others but I've also found that as my skills improve, I find easier and easier ways to do upgrades/installations.
Engineer Jeff NS Nut Visit my layout at: http://www.thebinks.com/trains/
hobo9941I have yet to be able to just plug in a sound decoder and run a loco. In almost every case, there isn't enough room to put a sound decoder on top of the regular light board. In every case, I have had to remove the light board and hard wire the decoder into the loco. Then with the light board gone, I have to use the proper resistor for the lights. Perhaps a tiny silent decoder could be fit in somewhere, along with the regular light board, but not a sound decoder. Am I the only one who finds it this way?
Just among N scale and HO scale there are many variations on the DCC ready term. I have some HO Spectrum 44 ton and Spectrum 70 ton diesels that are DCC ready. No eight pin NMRA connector. No room. I had to remove jumper clips from the PC board and solder the seven decoder wires to the appropriate terminals. The same with the HO scale Spectrum 0-6-0T. The same with the Mantua 0-6-0T. Many decoders come with no connector just for this reason.
But I did research first. I did not make assumptions.
Athearn has the "Quick Plug" which is a nine pin JST connector. No eight pin NMRA connector. There are eight pin to nine pin adapters.
The Athearn/Roundhouse steamers have the Quick Plug in the tender but very tight quarters.
My Stewart VO-1000 diesels are DCC ready with a eight pin connector.
Then, adding sound is a whole new ball game. Some people have “assumed” DCC ready means ready for sound. NOT.
This thread came about because of “assumptions”.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
Rich,That's the thing: there are no "bad guys" who say it's DCC Ready when it isn't.
Paul A. Cutler III
tstage richhotrain tstage Paul3So where is this great "Cruel Joke"? Even if we go back to older runs of locos, which ones were listed as "DCC Ready" and were not? I can't even think of any... Paul, How 'bout the Proto 2000 S1? It's labeled a "DCC-ready" locomotive but needs to have the motor isolated from the frame...or your decoder goes *poof*... Tom Tom, In the interest of fairness, the PK2 problem with the S1 first occurred nearly 10 years ago and, at that time, Life Like (then the manufacturer of the PK2 series) quickly acknowledged a design flaw and offered a workaround. The manufacturer honestly believed that it had created a DCC ready product. I have 3 of the S1's and, following the manufacturer's advice on the workaround, have never had a problem with a burned out decoder. Rich Hey Rich, I wasn't blaming the manufacturer. Paul was just asking for examples of locomotives that "were listed as 'DCC Ready' and were not" and I gave him one. I have three S1s myself and they are wondering little switchers. I used Randy (rrinker)'s work around when I installed a decoder in one of my S1s. Like yourself, I've never had a problem with it. Tom
richhotrain tstage Paul3So where is this great "Cruel Joke"? Even if we go back to older runs of locos, which ones were listed as "DCC Ready" and were not? I can't even think of any... Paul, How 'bout the Proto 2000 S1? It's labeled a "DCC-ready" locomotive but needs to have the motor isolated from the frame...or your decoder goes *poof*... Tom Tom, In the interest of fairness, the PK2 problem with the S1 first occurred nearly 10 years ago and, at that time, Life Like (then the manufacturer of the PK2 series) quickly acknowledged a design flaw and offered a workaround. The manufacturer honestly believed that it had created a DCC ready product. I have 3 of the S1's and, following the manufacturer's advice on the workaround, have never had a problem with a burned out decoder. Rich
tstage Paul3So where is this great "Cruel Joke"? Even if we go back to older runs of locos, which ones were listed as "DCC Ready" and were not? I can't even think of any... Paul, How 'bout the Proto 2000 S1? It's labeled a "DCC-ready" locomotive but needs to have the motor isolated from the frame...or your decoder goes *poof*... Tom
Paul3So where is this great "Cruel Joke"? Even if we go back to older runs of locos, which ones were listed as "DCC Ready" and were not? I can't even think of any...
Paul,
How 'bout the Proto 2000 S1? It's labeled a "DCC-ready" locomotive but needs to have the motor isolated from the frame...or your decoder goes *poof*...
Tom
Tom,
In the interest of fairness, the PK2 problem with the S1 first occurred nearly 10 years ago and, at that time, Life Like (then the manufacturer of the PK2 series) quickly acknowledged a design flaw and offered a workaround. The manufacturer honestly believed that it had created a DCC ready product.
I have 3 of the S1's and, following the manufacturer's advice on the workaround, have never had a problem with a burned out decoder.
Hey Rich,
I wasn't blaming the manufacturer. Paul was just asking for examples of locomotives that "were listed as 'DCC Ready' and were not" and I gave him one.
I have three S1s myself and they are wondering little switchers. I used Randy (rrinker)'s work around when I installed a decoder in one of my S1s. Like yourself, I've never had a problem with it.
I understood that and I didn't intend to jump on you. I just wanted to clarify other interested readers that Life Like was not one of the "bad guys" who say DCC Ready when it isn't. As I recall the incident, Life-Like was embarrassed by the design flaw and quickly acted to correct it.
Alton Junction
richhotraintstage Paul3So where is this great "Cruel Joke"? Even if we go back to older runs of locos, which ones were listed as "DCC Ready" and were not? I can't even think of any... Paul, How 'bout the Proto 2000 S1? It's labeled a "DCC-ready" locomotive but needs to have the motor isolated from the frame...or your decoder goes *poof*... Tom Tom, In the interest of fairness, the PK2 problem with the S1 first occurred nearly 10 years ago and, at that time, Life Like (then the manufacturer of the PK2 series) quickly acknowledged a design flaw and offered a workaround. The manufacturer honestly believed that it had created a DCC ready product. I have 3 of the S1's and, following the manufacturer's advice on the workaround, have never had a problem with a burned out decoder. Rich
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
tstagePaul3So where is this great "Cruel Joke"? Even if we go back to older runs of locos, which ones were listed as "DCC Ready" and were not? I can't even think of any... Paul, How 'bout the Proto 2000 S1? It's labeled a "DCC-ready" locomotive but needs to have the motor isolated from the frame...or your decoder goes *poof*... Tom
Oh, I see the problem. Its in the term 'DCC'. In the case of the P2K S1 'DCC' means 'Dead Controller on Contact'.
John
maxmanIt was not that hard, and if a fumblefingers like myself can do it, so can't everyone else. Probably took less time to install than it would have taken me to complain about the deviousness, deceit, and mis-representation of the various manufacturers.
True, but not nearly as much fun.
davidmbedard Well...no one has suggested that the OP should research before he buys. All you would have to do is look at install examples with this loco to see what is involved.....Google is an awesome tool... David B
Well...no one has suggested that the OP should research before he buys. All you would have to do is look at install examples with this loco to see what is involved.....
Google is an awesome tool...
David B
Indeed, I was simply aghast to see that someone actually suggested he should *ask in a forum* !!!
Simply scandalous!
mfm37 Perhaps DCC ready is misleading to the uninitiated. To those who have been in DCC since before the phrase existed, DCC ready means less than the OP believes. BTW, I'm in N scale. I've only seen one N scale engine with a plug. HO must be so much easier.
Perhaps DCC ready is misleading to the uninitiated. To those who have been in DCC since before the phrase existed, DCC ready means less than the OP believes.
BTW, I'm in N scale. I've only seen one N scale engine with a plug. HO must be so much easier.
Sometimes. The examples I cited are all HO models. And now you see why I haven't switched to N scale.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
mfm37 Perhaps manufacturers should be required to print all the things their product doesn't do on the box. That way we could assume it DID everything that wasn't listed.
Perhaps manufacturers should be required to print all the things their product doesn't do on the box. That way we could assume it DID everything that wasn't listed.
I was being facetious.
selector"Ready to eat...just heat." What should that mean in a food industry?
That is the crux of the whole matter. Just because the box says DCC Ready does NOT mean it is as simple as just taking off the shell and plugging in an 8 or 9 pin plug. SOME are actually that easy, but others that say DCC Ready may require you to solder the wires in (no plugs) and cut PC board traces, or it may be a simple plug in installation but they made a mistake in the way it's wired so while it works great at first, the first time it derails it smokes the decoder.
So far I can't think of any locos labeled as DCC Ready that require you to mill the frames or do any heavy reworking - so maybe that's where the line is drawn.
This sounds way too legalese scary like putting warning HOT! labels on coffee lids, warning labels on lawn mowers DO NOT USE AS A HEDGE CLIPPER.! and one of my all time favorites WARNING DO NOT DRIVE THIS BIKE AT NIGHT A IT IS NOT EQUIPPED WITH A HEAD LIGHT.
My god what is the world coming to if removing a locomotive shell and plugging in a simple 8 or 9 pin plug and replacing the shell is too difficult then I strongly suggest you find another hobby.
I sure hope this poster was intending this to be tongue in cheek.
Well, not really - just don't let it derail and have a wheel contact the frame. It'll work as-is because the pickups are isolated from the frame - but have that derailment and watch out!
Tom,Yet the P2K S-1 still has a plug. Obviously it was meant to be a true plug-n-play DCC installation, but they screwed it up. It's not exactly as if they labeled something "DCC Ready" and when you open the shell, there's nothing electrical in there at all. I tend to see it as a manufacturing error, rather than a "Cruel Joke".
Also note that this loco came out over 8 years ago. I note when my locos get decoders, and my NH P2K S-1 got a DCC decoder installed in it back in January, 2002. I'm not sure when the last run was, but it certainly hasn't been since Walthers took Proto over and that's been a couple years, too. Edit: I looked it up: Walthers bought Life-Like in July, 2005.
Another difficult DCC installation was the Atlas MP15. The clearance is so tight that any plug will not fit in the 8-pin socket. But, one can solder the decoder wires into the plug holes and have it fit. I still think of that as "DCC Ready".
selector,Isn't this whole debate rather a moot point these days?
Please name me a current product that says it's "DCC Ready" and is in your opinion not "DCC Ready".
All Athearn locos made these days have 9-pin plugs or have DCC & Sound. All Atlas Gold, Silver, or Master locos have 8-pin plugs, have DCC, or have DCC & Sound. BLI's have 8-pin plugs or DCC & Sound. P2K's have either 8-pin plugs or DCC & Sound. Kato has 8-pin plugs. Bowser/Stewart's have 8-pin plugs or DCC & Sound. Bachmann Spectrum's have 8-pin plugs or DCC & Sound. MTH has DCS/DCC & Sound.
About the only products that don't have plugs are P1K's. They have soldering pads and you have to cut a couple traces. That's still "DCC Ready" in my book.
The one loco that's never had a plug of any kind and probably never will is the Atlas S-unit. This loco is not "DCC Ready".
So where is this great "Cruel Joke"? Even if we go back to older runs of locos, which ones were listed as "DCC Ready" and were not? I can't even think of any...
Required? And exactly who would/could "require" them to do anything? I think not.
Sheldon
Well I don't see what your problem is at all. I have installed 6 Tsunami sound decoder in DCC ready locomotives and stretching it I would say the most difficult one took maybe 45 minutes. non of the locomotives with the exception of an IHC 2-10-2 Santa Fe had provisions for a speaker. I have them in several Proto H2K loco's and a few Spectrum and non were all that difficult. Even installed a Digitrax sound decoder and speaker in an Athearan Genesis F unit and it was not big deal.
Years ago my grandson and I were playing ball. He kept missing the ball when swinging the bat. He finally yelled at me. You are not hitting my bat.
Same thing here. The manufacturers are not hitting his bat.
He forgot one important buyer thought, Caveat emptor. Ok, so you will not have to do a Google search, it means, Let the Buyer Beware.
Maybe his version of Reality is different from the Reality most of us live in.
Belonging to about ten MRR forums gave me a lot of information when I first came into DCC.
Obvious Man has been very helpful to me in this hobby. Obviously he told me to do some homework first before buying anything, including a new car and PC, not only DCC items.
maxman selector "DCC ready." How is that working out for us? If those two words are good enough to be used across the hobby, they should mean something across the hobby. They don't, and that is the nub of it. Some manufacturers offer less 'readiness' than others, clearly, and it is incumbent upon the buyer to know how ready ready is. I agree with this. But going back to the beginning of the thread, the OP's issue, as I seem to remember, was that he wanted to be able to plug a sound decoder in the DCC ready loco and have the loco already set up to accommodate a speaker without any loco modification.
selector "DCC ready." How is that working out for us? If those two words are good enough to be used across the hobby, they should mean something across the hobby. They don't, and that is the nub of it. Some manufacturers offer less 'readiness' than others, clearly, and it is incumbent upon the buyer to know how ready ready is.
"DCC ready." How is that working out for us?
If those two words are good enough to be used across the hobby, they should mean something across the hobby. They don't, and that is the nub of it. Some manufacturers offer less 'readiness' than others, clearly, and it is incumbent upon the buyer to know how ready ready is.
I agree with this. But going back to the beginning of the thread, the OP's issue, as I seem to remember, was that he wanted to be able to plug a sound decoder in the DCC ready loco and have the loco already set up to accommodate a speaker without any loco modification.
This sounds almost like the terminological changes to phrases such as discontinued and such
Look. If you have to second guess what DCC ready really means in the context of which manufacturer then you might as well just get the dang DCC and be done with it
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
So, if we happen to take an Atlas Trainman loco, which is truly DCC ready if the criteria is that one should be able to just plug in a motor decoder, it would still not be DCC ready in the OP's opinion since modification is required for a speaker.
CSX RobertComparing "DCC Ready" to "with DCC and sound" does not make any sense context
"Ready to eat...just heat." What should that mean in a food industry?
"Instant...just add water." Sounds straighforward, something that all would agree to?
"Ready to use. Batteries not included." We would all agree on what this means?
If those two words are good enough to be used across the hobby, they should mean something across the hobby. They don't, and that is the nub of it. Some manufacturers offer less 'readiness' than others, clearly, and it is incumbent upon the buyer to know how ready ready is. Problem is, the degree of readiness, and what used to be blatant misrepresentation when they were no different from straight DC products form the 80's, is not inherent in the two words deliberately used on the packaging to entice the buyer. If for Manufacturer B nothing was changed except adding two words to the boxes, but manufacturer A actually modified the mounting of the motor in order to fully isolate it, which manufacturer has more legitimacy in the claim to being DCC ready?
-Crandell
I sympathize with the OP. From looking at what available it was clear to me that DCC-ready doesn't mean easy installation. For example Proto 2000 F7 units that are DCC ready, internally lack the space for speaker that a DCC w/Sound units have - ask me how I know.
What's more, when you add cost of a respectable decoder, speaker and time spend on installing it - it's generally not worth buying DCC-ready first, and then upgrading loco.
I had a benefit of just getting into the hobby, so every loco I buy is DCC w/Sound. Consider a Spectrum J-Class: A DCC w/Sound with nice Tsunami decoder costs on average $200. A plain or DCC version costs around $150. A stand alone Tsunami decoder will cost you on average $100, + speaker + spending time soldering, bulb resistors etc - you probably looking at $300 for the DCC-ready unit you've upgraded vs factory installed sound. You might argue that Bachmann Tsunami is limted etc etc - but for 99% of users it provides same features and experience. Unless it's some rare European or Japanese model, or you get DCC-ready loco for almost free, I don't see why one would not go for factory installed DCC & Sound.
Ok, the OP hit it right on the head.
This is all a conspiracy by DCC manufactures to rip us off. I finally got it.Sigh.