Hello
I'm looking for any new information on the HO Spectrum 2-6-6-2 like the one I've had so much trouble with.For those that don't remember or didn't read my original posts about the loco in question. It was a Bachmann spectrum with DCC and sound, factory equipped.Top speed was attained at step 19 (NCE Powercab) and would not increase with additional throttle. All CVs were changed with several combinations. NO joy!The other problem was it would jerk going down grade at slow speed. I noted that there was considerable slop in the drive train.
I sent the loco back to Bachmann and they did send me a new one. Same problems. It was clear that they had no clue how to fix it.I called Soundtraxx and they told me it was Bachmann's problem. I got the impression that they made the decoder to Bachmann's specs.
Question: has anyone had these problems and replaced the decoder, with good results?I would rather not replace the decoder if there is no improvement.
Have a good day
Lee
Might not be much help but have you tried the Bachmann forums?
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
CV VALUE
1=3
43=1
83=155
141=64
2=0
44=4
84=164
142=64
3=10
45=128
85=173
143=0
4=10
46=16
86=182
145=0
7=80
47=0
87=191
146=96
8=141
49=1
88=200
147=0
10=255
50=1
89=209
177=25
11=0
51=1
90=219
178=50
12=1
52=2
91=228
179=10
13=0
59=3
92=237
180=10
14=3
60=4
93=246
181=255
16=0
61=0
94=255
182=255
17=194
62=0
95=128
183=255
18=94
63=20
105=0
184=255
19=0
64=160
106=4
185=42
21=0
66=128
112=0
186=64
22=0
67=9
113=0
187=255
23=0
68=18
114=4
188=102
24=0
69=27
115=0
193=15
25=3
70=36
116=90
194=28
29=6
71=45
128=255
195=4
30=4
72=55
129=255
196=3
33=17
73=64
130=92
197=31
34=18
74=73
131=90
198=31
35=8
75=82=
132=48
209=255
36=4
76=91
133=32
210=255
37=16
77=100
134=16
212=255
38=32
78=109
135=32
213=20
39=0
79=118
136=128
214=10
40=0
80=127
137=128
41=16
81=137
139=128
42=128
82=146
140=64
I really had to monkey with the CVs on the Tsunami J to get it to operate correctly, but anyway above are the settings I ended up with, maybe they will help.
Lee,
Since your last posts on this subject, I have had the opertunity to purchase one of the new H4 versions of the 2-6-6-2 and to operate another one belonging to a friend. Both still have their dual mode non sound decoders at this point. Both operated fine on DC with a full and complete speed range and no surge or jerkyness on grades. Both have similar play in the driveline as their H5 consins (It is of course the same driveline).
So that brings a total of 4 on my layout, and 5 or 6 belonging to others I know that all lack sound and run fine on DC or DCC. I do know one person who just purchased on with sound, I will ask him for a report on its performance.
But the evidence is getting even stronger that this is purely a sound decoder issue. I suspect the back-EMF, or its settings, is not compatible with the motor/driveline. This could explain both problems.
Soundtraxx can say whatever they want, the fact the locos as a group run fine without decoders, run fine with non sound decoders, and run fine with aftermarket decoders, points directly to that decoder. That is not to say the decoder is "defective" but rather it just may not be suitable for that motor/loco.
Sheldon
Thanks guys for the response.
Oh yes, I was on the Bachmann forum, no help back then. Soundtraxx did say the decoder was not suppose to operate the way it does. I will try the CVs listed, I like the little engine, but for what it cost I feel I got ripped off.I'm in the process of adding 40 sqr. feet to the lay out and need a brake from that anyway.Have a good day.
So do they still have the RF supression capacitors still in them, Sheldon? You've said before most decoders don't like seeing the PWM from your Aristo system, which makes sense - but it sounds like these last two work just fine without pulling the decoder? I'm wondering if the non-sound (but DCC) ones work fine on DCC because the el-cheapo Bachmann dual-mode decoders have neither BEMF nor high frequency PWM drives. Tsunamis have both. It's not to hard to think that not only would the caps interfere with the high frequency drive but the caps and/or chokes could interfere with the BEMF as well. Non-BEMF high frequency decoders seem to do fine with the caps clipped and the chokes left alone - that would be easy to test by disabling the BEMF in the Tsunami and clipping the caps. If it runs smooth now - try re-enabling BEMF. If it suddenly gets jerky again - that migth be the problem. Remove the chokes and replace with short jumper wires.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinkerSo do they still have the RF supression capacitors still in them, Sheldon? You've said before most decoders don't like seeing the PWM from your Aristo system, which makes sense - but it sounds like these last two work just fine without pulling the decoder? I'm wondering if the non-sound (but DCC) ones work fine on DCC because the el-cheapo Bachmann dual-mode decoders have neither BEMF nor high frequency PWM drives.
I agree with you on this, the non sound decoders used by Bachmann do run OK on the Train Engineer, but, slow speed does improve after they are removed and the capacitors are removed. Also, depending on the loco, the lighting circuits do not always like the combination of the factory decoder and the Train Engineer. I would assume the new H4 does have the capacitors, but I have not been in the tender yet to remove the decoder.
If I recall, Lee has already removed the capacitors in his loco with no improvement. I suspect that the decoder simply does not like motors electrical profile or the Bachmann circuit board, or both.
I have a friend with a sound equiped 2-8-0, it runs great. I have run it, he uses Digitrax. For some yet to be explained reason, each Bachmann loco seems to have a slighly unique lighting circuit control board. I have not been into a sound loco, but this is definately the case with the non sound locos, both DC and DCC, going all the way back to the begining of the Spectrum line.
I understand Lee's frustration, but I would be very tempted to remove any "extra" circuits from Bachmann and hard wire the decoder or replace the decoder and again, remove the Bachmann lighting board and hard wire the new decoder.
River Eagle
I really appreciate you taking the time to post the list of CVs for me . I have installed and double checked all my CVs. I did notice that there are about six CVs that Decoder Pro does not pull up and show. I did set them with my Power Cab. Might this factory decoder be slightly different than yours?First off I have not had time to run speed trials yet but it does seem to have a different throttle response. Maybe better. Now, I do get some strange sounds. Start forward step one I get two whistles and bells. In reverse different whistles and bells.Speed changes gets me short and long whistles and more bells.Is this the way it's suppose to work?Slow motion down grade is the same with a forward jerking motion. I really don't expect any improvement is this. There is just to much slop in the drive train. I can see were with DC there is a steady power applied to the motor so it might run a little faster but at a steady pace.If I can just remember that this is a hobby and should be a fun learning experience.
Have a good evening.
I have the auto whistle set up turned on,
for auto sounds when running on DC
2 toots and bell starting forward
3 toots and bell in reverse
1 toot when slowing to stop,
and a rapid thottle bump up and down activates grade crossing.
bump down activates brake sound.
setting 197 to 0 will turn it off for analog, setting of 31 = all on
198 to 0 shuts it off for DCC, same here 31 = all on
other values on these CV will allow you to pick just the sounds you want.
see pages 87-92 of tech reference guide for more info on auto sounds.
I did clip the caps for the motor on my J also
We may have something here. If my measurements are accurate I'm getting 33.9 scale mph at full throttle and 26.36 at step 19. This should be a proportional increase to throttle input. I'm going to save these CVs and see how they differ from the charts, and why doesn't Decoder Pro pick up all the CVS in this decoder?
Thank you very much.
What decoder does it identify as? A regular Tsunami or s special Bachmann version? Check on the JMRI group on Yahoo and see if there might not be an updated decoder definition to better support th Bachmann versions.
Randy,
Today I got into the tender on the new H4, removed the decoder, and yes they do stil have a capacitor across the motor - its gone now too. While performance was OK with the decoder, slow speed is better now without it or the cap.
Interesting side note, while the new H4 2-6-6-2 ran fine on the Train Engineer with the decoder, the same decoder, installed in the 2-8-4's which I am converting to heavy mikes, does not work so well. The locos run fine, but not on trackage with my detectors, I can't reverse the loco, it just sits there. On trackage without detectors, isolated from my "keep alive" circuit the locos run fine but the lights don't work. After the decoders are removed and the jumpers installed, everything works fine.
So some of the "problems" must be in the way the decoder and the lighting board interface. And it is obvious that the lighting board in the 2-8-4 is different from the one in the 2-6-6-2. In fact, from wheel arrangement to wheel arrangement, no two Bachmann lighting boards are the same.
I still think the problem Lee is having would be solved by hard wiring the decoder or hard wiring a better decoder.
But what do I know, I'm just hick with a pickup, some guns and some trains.
Hey Guys RandyD. Pro does identify the decoder as Bachmann OE Sheldon I used River Eagles cv numbers for my loco and it runs as it should, (I think.) Now it's just a matter of finding out if I'm too dumb to operate the devices or the manufactures are just winging when they write the manuals.Although I'm not sure I would buy another articulated because the drive train just has too much slop to run well on DCC. I am talking with the guys on Bachmanns' web site and over at JMRI's to see if the proper specs are available. I ask if The regular Tsunami manual covers the Bachmann OE version.
Thanks to all you guys the little locos not too bad now.
Oh yes, I've had the tender apart and clipped out the capacitor but I tried to get the other locos' boiler apart with no luck. It looks like the only way I could get it apart is with a rock.
yankee flyerAlthough I'm not sure I would buy another articulated because the drive train just has too much slop to run well on DCC.
Lee, I don't buy that for a minute, the slop in the driveline has nothing to do with any of this in my opinion. Why would that effect DCC operation and not DC operation?
I do believe Bachmann may not really have the best combination of motor, lighting circuit board and sound decoder for best performance.
Bachmann is working to hit a price point, I don't know what you paid, but I hope is was not more than about $300. That is street price for a 2-6-6-2 with sound and is way less than any of the other brands for an articulated loco with sound. Just like their "basic" decoder is just that, basic, I suspect the sound decoder is low budget as well.
Before Bachmann offered sound, everyone I knew who was putting sound in them, and many who were just adding DCC without sound, recommended removing all the Bachmann electronics and hard wiring the decoders - still likely to be the best bet with any of their locos.
And again, I will repeat, my four, and several others I have seen all run fine on DC, so the problem is not mechanical, nor is it the motor. That leaves the decoder and the thier lighting board (or as I have suggested many times now, an interface problem between the two).
I saw your post on the Bachmann board today. The H4 is actually a new and slightly different loco from the one you have (yours is an H5). It is the same drive, but has a different tender and that tender has a new lighting board. So results from those who have sound versions of the new H4 may have little bearing on your problem.
If you decide you don't want it, put it on Ebay, they go pretty well on there.
yankee flyerOh yes, I've had the tender apart and clipped out the capacitor but I tried to get the other locos' boiler apart with no luck. It looks like the only way I could get it apart is with a rock.
I've had several of them apart, there are no capacitors in the loco, everything is in the tender.
The middle dome comes off, there is one screw, the cab un-snaps and the boiler lifts right off - but getting the dome off can be tricky and getting to the motor requires unwiring the whole loco, a pretty big job after the boiler is off.
ATLANTIC CENTRALLee, I don't buy that for a minute, the slop in the driveline has nothing to do with any of this in my opinion. Why would that effect DCC operation and not DC operation?
Hey, I can be wrong but here is my way of thinking. On DC the power / voltage is applied to the rails / motor, the loco rolls forward and if the cars start pushing the loco nothing changes the same voltage is still applied. The train continues ahead maybe a little faster but not noticeable. With DCC the throttle tells the loco to accelerate to step 10 when the train starts pushing the loco, the decoder backs off, then it's too slow, the decoder adds power and surges forward etc.etc. Surge slow, surge slow. The slop in gearing doesn't allow the decoder instant feed back it goes from slack one way to slack the other way.It could be the decoder but I'm not spending another $100 until I explore all other options. This old retiree has to squeeze ever $. This is the best I can explain my thinking.
Thanks All.
As David suggests, maybe the BEMF needs to be ajusted, (or turned off).
Personally, I don't see the big deal about BEMF, but, there are a lot of features of DCC that I have not figured out any need for.
BEMF can do that, a decoder without BEMF or witht he BEMF turned off will work just as DC does, some voltage will be applied to the motor for each speed step and the motor will speed up or slow down as the load changes. BEMMF, especially if set to be too aggressive, will attempt to keep the motor turning at a set speed, however it will always slightly lag any binding in the drivetrain, making for some interesting surges. Same thing happens when you consist two locos with BEMF, they can fight one another and buck and surge.
Not sure what the CVs might be for the Bachmann version Tsunami, but you could try totally disabling BEMF and see if it runs any better. But the only real way to fix slop int he drivetrain is to install thrust washers so the worm can't keep moving fore and aft. Same problem shows up on Athearn and P2K locos too.
And this is why I like TCS decoders, the BEMF fades out above a certain speed step, that way you get the benefits for slow speed running but at higher speeds there's no 'cruise control' effect and you need to add more juice to haul a train up a hill without slowing and cut back when going down.
rrinker BEMF can do that, a decoder without BEMF or witht he BEMF turned off will work just as DC does, some voltage will be applied to the motor for each speed step and the motor will speed up or slow down as the load changes. BEMMF, especially if set to be too aggressive, will attempt to keep the motor turning at a set speed, however it will always slightly lag any binding in the drivetrain, making for some interesting surges. Same thing happens when you consist two locos with BEMF, they can fight one another and buck and surge. Not sure what the CVs might be for the Bachmann version Tsunami, but you could try totally disabling BEMF and see if it runs any better. But the only real way to fix slop int he drivetrain is to install thrust washers so the worm can't keep moving fore and aft. Same problem shows up on Athearn and P2K locos too. And this is why I like TCS decoders, the BEMF fades out above a certain speed step, that way you get the benefits for slow speed running but at higher speeds there's no 'cruise control' effect and you need to add more juice to haul a train up a hill without slowing and cut back when going down. --Randy
Randy, all good thoughts here and you, me and David are all in agreement, but having had several of these locos completely apart, I can tell you (and Lee) that the slop is ot in the worm gears and wold not be easily removed/lessened. The slop is in the drive shaft universals and in the gear towers themselves.
As you and David explain more about decoder programing, I am more convenced its the decoders basic design (or lack of it).
ATLANTIC CENTRALRandy, all good thoughts here and you, me and David are all in agreement, but having had several of these locos completely apart, I can tell you (and Lee) that the slop is ot in the worm gears and wold not be easily removed/lessened. The slop is in the drive shaft universals and in the gear towers themselves.
SheldonI totally agree, the slop is mostly in the gear tower. and can't be readily fixed.in other words a bad design. I have turned off the BEMF in the past but I have changed so many CVs that I don't remember what the results were. The CV numbers that River Eagle gave me have it working good except for the surging. Before I change too many CVs I going to revue the manuals. The fact that Decoder Pro doesn't pull all the CVs makes me wonder if Tsunamis' manual even covers this Bachmann OE decoder. Remember the Soundtraxx guy said it was Bachmanns' problem . Was Soundtraxx not happy with the results of degrading the decoder? Hmmm.
Have fun.
Although there was a reply on the Digitrax Yahoo list to Lee's question to wit that the poster of said response found that if he totally removed the Bachmann board and hard-wired the same decoder back in, it worked much better, which lends some creedence to the idea that it's the rf suppression and whatever else is on that Bachmann DC electronics board interfering with the decoder operation. Not having one to look at I have no idea what lies in the circuit path from the motor pins of the 8-pin plug to the motor itself, outside of the known capacitors and chokes.
I just checked the other forum for information and got this. I hope Gerry doesn't mind me posting this.
Lee I currently have a Bachmann OEM 2-10-2 on the layout - it will be gone in about 4 hours. The major problem is the Bachmann part of the set up. With the loco in normal condition the Tsunami decoder plugs into the Bachmann Light Board with an 8 pin plug. This causes all sorts of read and write errors - with and without the Power Pax. BUT, unplug the Tsunami and pluging it straight into my tester, everything was perfect - no read or write errors. If the loco was mine I would by pass the Bachmann board and hard wire the decoder. Regarding CV52 - the FX6 select, there is no pad on the Tsunami for the extra functions - either FX or FX5. Regards Gerry
Comments from my question the JMRI forum.
yankee flyerI totally agree, the slop is mostly in the gear tower. and can't be readily fixed.in other words a bad design.
Based on how mine run, I'm not sure I could/would call it a bad design.
From what I'm reading, it seems like I might be right about the Bachmann lighting board being the problem.
If I was using DCC, I would hard wire all decoders based on my experiance with electronics.
OK, here is some "general" information about the Bachmann lighting boards.
From loco type to loco type, few if any are exactly the same, but all are similar.
All the new locos have LED headlights and the lighting board contains directional diodes, resistors, and capacitors for the lighting. The capacitors in the lighting portion of the circuit are to buffer or smooth out the voltage to the LED's. These do not interfere with DC, even the Train Engineer or other pulse width throttles because the diodes buffer them from the motor circuit.
The board also contains an Radio Frequency filter to reduce radio and TV interference. This circuit consists of two choke coils and a capacitor in the motor circuit. It is tuned (like a speaker system crossover) to trap a given range of frequencies. This is the capacitor that many of us remove for DC or DCC operation. The choke coils (inductors) are of a value that likely has no effect once the tuning of the circuit is broken by the removal of the capacitor - at least as it applies to the pulse width motor control signals.
BUT, in may well be that these choke coils are interfering with the BEMF signal back to the decoder on DCC applications. Or, the lighting circuit, which is really designed for DC, may have a resonance issue that is interfering with the decoder or BEMF.
So while I do fine just modifying the Bachmann boards for use with the DC Train Engineer, those with DCC may be better served by removing the lighting board and hard wiring the decoder directly and simply installing the correct resistor in the LED leads. This would eliminate any resonant type circuits that could interfere with the BEMF or the decoder outputs.
ATLANTIC CENTRALFrom what I'm reading, it seems like I might be right about the Bachmann lighting board being the problem.
Hey Sheldon I never doubted you might have the answer. What I was looking for was someone that had actually done the mod. Now I just have to work up the courage to start cutting.I appreciate all that took the time to post and tried to help.
One of the posts above expressed the possibility of not buying another articulated due to these problems.
I respectfully suggest trying the BLI factory refurbished Y-6B before you give up on buying any other articulateds.
I have not been a BLI fan, was not happy with some BLI engines I had owned in the past--yet the Paragon2 Y-6B is way different, actually a fantastic engine for the $329.99 price off their website, factory refurbished (mine looks as good as brand new without a mark on it anywhere).
I read this thread with interest, as I had contemplated buying one of the H-4's, but this and other threads I've seen remind me that for all the improvements and nice detailing, the Spectrum engines are still a Bachmann--still subject to variations in equipment, cicuitry, etc.--still subject to problems. Since I generally prefer western roads and/or larger articulateds, I probably will avoid any Bachmann 2-6-6-2's. (My local train store still has a brand new NKP one--but it is clear it has problems including visibly mis-aligned valve guides, etc.)
For those who hate smoke, BLI has provided a nice on-off switch, under the engine near the cab, that can even be reached by tipping the engine a little bit while it's on the track.
In my opinion, for articulated motive power, the MTH 4-6-6-4 and the BLI Paragon2 Y-6B are both big winners. I have an Athearn Big Boy coming soon; it will certainly provide an interesting comparison.
John
First off, you are most welcome, glad to help.
Second, I do understand your expectation that the loco should work from the manufacturer. I personally believe I have both different and in some ways higher expectations than any of these manufacturers can/will provide.
And, I have been at this hobby a long time, since 1967. So, as you have seen on here, I go my own way, make things work to my satisfaction, don't buy much of the high priced, expected to be perfect, kinds of products, and still build/modify a lot of stuff.
Hard wiring the decoder should be pretty easy. The Bachmann board is reasonbly well marked as to which wires are which going to the loco. If you need any help identifing anything, let me know.
UP 4-12-2 One of the posts above expressed the possibility of not buying another articulated due to these problems. I respectfully suggest trying the BLI factory refurbished Y-6B before you give up on buying any other articulateds. I have not been a BLI fan, was not happy with some BLI engines I had owned in the past--yet the Paragon2 Y-6B is way different, actually a fantastic engine for the $329.99 price off their website, factory refurbished (mine looks as good as brand new without a mark on it anywhere). I read this thread with interest, as I had contemplated buying one of the H-4's, but this and other threads I've seen remind me that for all the improvements and nice detailing, the Spectrum engines are still a Bachmann--still subject to variations in equipment, cicuitry, etc.--still subject to problems. Since I generally prefer western roads and/or larger articulateds, I probably will avoid any Bachmann 2-6-6-2's. (My local train store still has a brand new NKP one--but it is clear it has problems including visibly mis-aligned valve guides, etc.) For those who hate smoke, BLI has provided a nice on-off switch, under the engine near the cab, that can even be reached by tipping the engine a little bit while it's on the track. In my opinion, for articulated motive power, the MTH 4-6-6-4 and the BLI Paragon2 Y-6B are both big winners. I have an Athearn Big Boy coming soon; it will certainly provide an interesting comparison. John
John, I don't know what Lee's interestes are in terms of prototypes. I will agree that the BLI/PCM Y6b is a great loco regardless of which version you have, early or current Paragon.
FOR ME, I would have no interest in having a Y6b and a Big Boy on the same layout. I model a single place and time in history, even if it is "fictional" (we now prefer protolanced).
Like you prefer west coast roads, I have no interest in them. I do avoid models that have SERIOUS quality failings, but to reach my modeling goals I will buy any product that fits my roster needs and that can be made to perform to my standards, (which I feel are pretty high) and is reasonably priced considering any changes it might require.
Bachmann fills that bill rather well for me, BLI/PCM not so much so.
I have two BLI/PCM Reading T1's, both needed "ajustments" to run well. I have a BLI/PCM ABBA set of F3's, needed to be rewired for my uses, I have two BLI USRA Heavy 2-8-2's, needed rewiring and BLI still has not provided parts to fix one, I have one BLI, first run N&W class A - this is the only BLI piece I have that was "perfect" out of the box, But I did replace its tender to eliminate the sound and change its look for my road.
So why pay those higher prices? Or get ripped off when they blow them out at 50% off six months after the release?
Bachmann locos, with or without sound, can be bought at the lowest market price the day they hit the shore.
I understand your goals are different, but I would submit to you that of the various types of modelers out there, just as many have goals/needs/interests similar to mine as have goals/needs/interests like yours.
As for MTH, his prices and control system rules them out for me - I'm not buying any $400-$500 dollar locos to then have to rewire them completely. On a $100 Bachmann loco, the mods are small and simple.
And, I suspect when Lee rewires his 2-6-6-2 with the decoder hardwired, it will exceed his expectations in preformance. And if he bought it at the right store, it was only $300 or maybe a little less.
My 4 Bachmann Spectrum 2-6-6-2's all run great on my Train Engineer throttles, and the only modifications where adding weight to the tenders and removing the famous RF capacitor. They pull well for their size, and averaged out between them they only cost me $168.00 each, and that included alternate replacement tenders for two of them. But of course they don't have sound or DCC.
One other important note to all following this, in case you did not pick up on this fact earlier, the new H4 has a different circuit board from the previous H5 like Lee has.
This new circuit board in the H5 is like nothing I have seen in a Bachmann loco before and looks similar to those in BLI products. I have not yet traced it out other than to find and remove the RF capacitor. Only one of my four locos is an H4, the other three are DC versions of what Lee has.
So, it could be Bachmann has fixed this problem on the H4. I am waiting for some performance reports from several friends who have purchased the sound version of the H4.
Like my three H5's, my H4 runs very well on the Train Engineer now that the decoder and RF capacitor are gone.
ATLANTIC CENTRALAnd, I suspect when Lee rewires his 2-6-6-2 with the decoder hardwired, it will exceed his expectations in preformance. And if he bought it at the right store, it was only $300 or maybe a little less.
I bought my "H5" at Micro- Mark For I believe $256 and yes mine must be the H5 because of the tender is not the Vanderbilt. I wanted the small articulated because I have 20" to 24" radius curves with one reverse loop that has 18" R. I can see how addictive this hobby can be because I started with a 4' X 12' and after adding to it four times its now 5' X 27'. Oh well it keeps me out of the bars and off the streets.
Good day