When in doubt, remove the factory junk! Keep out unecessary interference.This may not cause any problem with your basic Tech II or Tech III power pack, but with DCC and better quality DC systems that use simialr PWM - it wreaks havoc.
Blue on the decoder IS common - it's a positive common. Each decoder function lead is a current sink to ground - technical name, an open collector circuit but what it means to the non-EE is that the function is basically a switch to ground. What this means is you can connect more than one function lead to the same bulb or LED with no harm - say you want the headlight on in forward AND reverse but don't feel like programmign the decoder for this - just connect the white AND yellow leads to the same side of the LED, and blue to the other. If you visualize the circuit as a power source eonnceted to a light bulb connected to two toggle switches in parallel, you cna see how this will work - if either or both switches are closed, the bulb lights. And there is clearly no interaction between the two switches - it's like having two pieces of wire in parallel. The other reason they do this is because a transistor acting as a switch in this manner dissipates very little of the current flowing through it - meaning it doesn't get very warm. Critical on a decoder to use small transistors to conserve space yet provide sufficient current handling capacity.
More than you probably wanted to know
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
yankee flyer Test results! Everything seems to be working properly. Light works, speed is good, when I get time I do a thorough check. This decoder light output is Blue positive and negative white. I thought blue was common and therefore negative for LEDs. Thanks to all that coached me through this. Lee
Test results!
Everything seems to be working properly. Light works, speed is good, when I get time I do a thorough check. This decoder light output is Blue positive and negative white. I thought blue was common and therefore negative for LEDs.
Thanks to all that coached me through this.
Lee
Another happy customer!
Thanks guys
I'm going slow on this because I really don't want to smoke the decoder. I'll try to get it done later today If I do complete the job I let everyone know.
Put a resistor in but don't solder it, test - if the light works, solder it up and you're done. Better safe than sorry, unlessit's REALLY easy to get at the headlight and repalce it. Too much resistence just means it won't light, you can't possibly damage an LED with too much resistence. On the other hand, if you leave it out and it DOES need one... poof. You night also want to check the output of the blue and white wires on the decoder, some of the full-blown Tsunamis have resistors already in place. Who knows with the Bachmann version. Assuming full 12V output from the decoder and no resistor up in the boiler shell, a 1K resistor will work fine.
Lee, I tested the lighting output of a spare 2-6-6-2 tender and the output T the LED was 2 volts.
Sheldon
Lee, many white or yellow LED's require more like 2-3 volts to light, a battery just might not be enough.
Try two batteries, even hooked up in reverse that should not exceed the reverse rating of the LED.
Well there is no turning back now. Everything is cut out, pickup wires are rewired. I have the motor leads isolated. The only thing is I feel I should be able to light the LED with a 1 1/2 volt battery as a double check. No luck.The Bmans' light board output has two wires marked M+ an M- so those wires going to the engine should be for the motor. The other two marked + an - should be the wires going to the LED. Surely the light board was made to put out the 11/2 volts for the LED and the engine should not have a resister inside it. I would be more comfortable if I could get It to light.Measure twice cut once! As my Grandpappy use to say.
John,
I have no problem with your modeling, collecting, or whatever you choose to call it - obviously your model train interests are more RTR, mine less so.
None of my BLI stuff was bought at retail, most at nearly 50% off, some even less thanks to their bad marketing polices. I would never pay their retail prices. I still don't have much of it, as explained, most of it was no better than Bachmann at meeting my standards - in several cases much worse. And now none of it is stock, as it came, out of the box.
UP 4-12-2However, because I bought them right, I was able to get out of some of those engines for what I had in them. In my 20's then, I did also receive a $20,000 valuable education in what brass models not to buy.
Wow, you have got me beat, I own about 120 locomotives, and have never engaged in buying/selling, so I still have 95% of what I have ever bought - I suspect I only have about $10,000 tied up in locomotives over my whole 40 years in the hobby. Obviously I don't buy brass, not much anyway. I have one and one half - and they now have plastic tenders. Never had much interest in them - too expensive for what you get in most cases. But maybe that's my problem, I buy model trains to have fun with, not as investments, I prefer real estate for that.
Intermountain kits are fun and easy - but then again that's what I do, build things.
Actually I design and build things for a living - houses mostly, but I've built cars, process machinery, sky scrapers, shopping centers, bridges, etc. (or at least some critical part of all of these).
My point is this, you continue to "sell" BLI and MTH to everyone - as long as you do, and as long as it contains attacks on Bachmann or other brands deemed "lesser" in your view, I will continue to share my view - about how happy I am with my 30 Spectrum locos, how good they run, how well they their offerings fit my modeling goals, how affordable they are and how easily they are improved.
Lee, Randy, myself and others have been trying to solve this problem Lee was having for some time - seems we have, and it seems that Bachmann has solved the problem on the new H4 version as it is getting good reviews even on this forum as I type this.
BLI has vertually no prototypes at the present I am interested in, I won't speak for Lee, but we were discussing his loco and his problem. You are surely welcome to give your opinion, and I am surely wlecome to give this response.
The solution to Lee's problem is not to buy something, anything, made by BLI or MTH, he obviously wanted a 2-6-6-2, we are trying to make that work out, and it seems we have. BLI nor MTH have a solution to his problem, they don't make a 2-6-6-2. Bachmann may not have had a solution either, but his fellow modelers do.
So with just some small effort on his part, and without disassembling the loco itself (everything he needs to do in the tender, two screws, six wires reconnected), he will have what he wants - a $256 2-6-6-2 with DCC and sound that runs correctly.
yankee flyer ATLANTIC CENTRALRemember what I said before, all the wiring in the loco is discrete, two wires to the motor, two wires to the pickups, two wires to the head light - common wires, no other components. Are we sure this light is an LED, if so a 1 1/2 V battery should tell me which head light wire from the engine is + or -. That leaves me with an extra wire out of the decoder, blue gray or white. Blue is common to the head lights and there is no back up light?? Hmmm I shall mull this over.Edit: Yes I looked at the light with a magnifier and the head light appears to be LED. Lee
ATLANTIC CENTRALRemember what I said before, all the wiring in the loco is discrete, two wires to the motor, two wires to the pickups, two wires to the head light - common wires, no other components.
Are we sure this light is an LED, if so a 1 1/2 V battery should tell me which head light wire from the engine is + or -. That leaves me with an extra wire out of the decoder, blue gray or white. Blue is common to the head lights and there is no back up light?? Hmmm I shall mull this over.Edit: Yes I looked at the light with a magnifier and the head light appears to be LED.
Yes, we are sure it is an LED - I have had two of these apart, and, all DCC and DCC/sound Bachmann locos have LED lighting - nothing in th spectrum line has had a 12 volt bulb since the pre DCC 2-8-0's.
Blue from the decoder is + for the light, white is the - for the front light. Grey on the decoder is one of the motor leads - unless there are 2 grey wires?
Lee, the two left over are the headlight - Bachmann does not follow the NMRA color code - in fact, their color codes vary from production run to production run and loco type to loco type.
I designed and built controls for process machinery in manufacturing for decades, I drew the schematics, but we never color coded anything, we used wire numbers. Red was our favorite color or wire.
Sounds like you are doing fine, you simply need a resistor in that line to the headlight. If i get time this afternoon, I can look in a similar tender and see if I tell which is the positive to the LED. But as long as you have the resistor in the circuit, if you hook it up wrong, it simply won't light.
Remember what I said before, all the wiring in the loco is discrete, two wires to the motor, two wires to the pickups, two wires to the head light - common wires, no other components.
Good morning
I have the NMRA color codes and charts. It's easy to pick out the motor and pickup wires but after that I have blue gray and white coming out of the decoder and I am left with brown and red coming from the engine. How do you reconcile that? Red and black pick ups from the engine are on a separate plug.I was a tech. on some very large Radar in the service but we had schematics for everything, with input and output values at every connector.Oh yes, I remember this is a learning experience.
Basic NMRA decoder colors are red and black for the track pickups, red for right rail typically. Orange and Grey go to the motor, orange to the side of the motor that was connected to the right rail, typically. Blue is common for all functions (positive - decoder functions are open-collector current sinks so it's perfectly OK to connect more than one function lead to the same light bulb or whatever). White is the function lead for the front light, yellow is for the rear light. Grren would be the next function, and then Violet or Brown (most I've seen use Violet). That's as many wires as can fit in the 9 pin JST plug, so must decoders that have more functions have solder pads for the attachment of additional wires.
Some locos make it easy and even when they don't have decoders use the NMRA DCC wire colors so it's easy to remove whatever DC dummy plug might be present and simply connect like colored wire to like and it will be fine. Others just use black wires for eveything so you need to poke a little and see where each one goes.
Sheldon--
Obviously, I'm not Lee, and certainly my tastes and opinions won't match others, as we have already established.
However, given the choice between a $256 loco that may have some issues and that $500 loco that might actually be had for $330 new, but factory refurbished (i.e. thoroughly gone over by the importer to remove any issues), I will take the $330 choice every single time--partly because it's still a $500 loco for cheap (or significantly less)--and though other models get dumped at big discounts, the top-flight models don't usually go for those big discounts, but instead a lesser price break. BLI never dumped the UP brass-hybrid 2-10-2's; even the refurbished ones have only a very modest discount.
When I have disassembled some articulateds in the past, I certainly have run into issues. They were a Precision Scale Western Pacific Challenger and Overland Models UP 2-8-8-0's. There were issues with those particular engines that I did not have the parts and/or expertise to fix: a key part was totally missing from a PSC 4-6-6-4, and the OMI 2-8-8-0's had major electrical issues--could be anything from hidden bad wheel insulation to much more serious problems that just were beyond my expertise. However, because I bought them right, I was able to get out of some of those engines for what I had in them. In my 20's then, I did also receive a $20,000 valuable education in what brass models not to buy.
Some folks really enjoy the hobby aspect of taking a model that may have a few issues, or that might be available cheap, and fixing it up to their satisfaction--great for them! In my case, I have disassembled plenty of limited edition models in the past, and learned that although I can design things that don't move (roads and railroads) very well on paper or in cadd, I'm not a great mechanic on those things that do move. Some enjoy complete disassembly of steam engines--in my case it stresses me out. Building Intermountain freight car kits stresses me out, and the end result looks much inferior in my eyes to what the Chinese are able to accomplish.
So for me, it is much better to pay a little bit more for relatively "bullet-proof" or "idiot-proof" quality, give them exemplary maintenance (I at least can lube and clean), and leave them alone, unmodified, unfooled around with. I love the P2K sintered bronze graphite impregnated bearings that will never need additional lubrication! That's the way to build a model--so it doesn't need to be taken apart. Some other manufacturer's instructions that come with those higher-end models do now specifically say that under "normal running circumstances" (ie not on a store layout running 10 hours per day) they are well lubed at the factory and should never require additional lubrication (this is always excepting the valve gear, which will need some lubrication). That's what I'm willing to pay more for. I don't have a big roster like some people do, but instead I go for the higher end equipment and just have less of it.
Lee, the colors will be different, but its easy to figure out. Look at the Bachmann lighing board - the motor wires to the loco are marked M+ and M- on the circuit board. That's your motor leads.
Follow the wires from the tender trucks to to the circuit board, you will see they connect to the board the same place as two of the wires to the loco - they are the track pickups - right and left.
The remaning two wires that go to the loco are the headlight LED - there is nothing between the lighting board and the LED, so if the decoder output is 12 volts you will need a resistor there.
If your loco has a backup light, it will go directly to the lighting board - just disconnect it and provide a resistor just like the headlight.
Blue, gray and white - that is forward headlight, common and rear headlight I assume (I don't know this DCC color code stuff) - the decoder documentation should explain how to connect the LED's to that.
AND, I'm sure Randy will read this soon and fill in what I'm not fully up on about the decoder.
Keep in mind - the six wires from the loco plugs are - motor (plus/minus), pickups (right/left), headlight (plus/minus) - there are NO other electrical components in the loco itself and those six wires are all discrete to their item.
All the wires coming fromt he engine are probably black so they hid between the engine and tender.. If you can see any of the traces on the circuit board you cna probably cross reference a wire coming from the loco with the NMRA 8 pin socket specification to see just what goes where. Critical not to mix up are the track pickups and the motor leads - although if you get the motor leads backwards, no harm, the loco will just move the wrong way. If the headlight is an LED - same thing, reversing the connection to the blue and white wires on the decoder will just mean it won't light up. A critical point for that is where the dropping reistor is - probably on the circuit board you are about to remove, so a resistor must be added in one of the headlight wires (doesn't matter which one). Pickups from the tender should be easy to trace.
If you unplug the decoder it should be easy to test a few things with a meter, Sitting on a piece of track you should get continuity between the right raila nd some wires, that would be the right rail power source and goes to the red wire on the decoder - there should be 2, one from the tender and one from the loco. Ditto for the left rail, those wires would connect to black on the decoder. Not sure how hard it is to access the motor terminals, but again you can just trace continuity to the tender plug and see which two wires connect to the motor. Thse go to orange and grey on the decoder - if the loco runs backwards you can fix it with CV29 or just flip the wires around. That should cover 4 of the wires coming from the engine - the reamining should be the headlight.
To be honest I would rather have a $256 loco that runs correctly. My other Bachmann steam were all plug and play. Now I'm embarrassed to ask, were do I get a schematic for this loco? I traced out the wires and everything makes sense except I don't have the blue, gray and white for lights coming out of the engine. I hope the standard decoder schematic works for the Bachmann decoder.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL yankee flyerI totally agree, the slop is mostly in the gear tower. and can't be readily fixed.in other words a bad design. Based on how mine run, I'm not sure I could/would call it a bad design. From what I'm reading, it seems like I might be right about the Bachmann lighting board being the problem. If I was using DCC, I would hard wire all decoders based on my experiance with electronics. Sheldon
yankee flyerI totally agree, the slop is mostly in the gear tower. and can't be readily fixed.in other words a bad design.
Based on how mine run, I'm not sure I could/would call it a bad design.
From what I'm reading, it seems like I might be right about the Bachmann lighting board being the problem.
If I was using DCC, I would hard wire all decoders based on my experiance with electronics.
Is it any wonder this is what I do? Plus the fact that a plain-wire decoder can be had for as little as $12 while specific board replacement types tend to be at least twice that. I don't have any Bachmann steam locos but I do have one of the newer 44-tonners and that board is coming out for sure. I've also seem some real doozies in P2K locos (usually the older ones) - one which had 2 large resistors to drop the light bulb voltage, and various traces on the circuit board you were supposed to cut when installing a decoder (it did have an 8 pin plug - fail to cut the traces though and it fried decoders instantly). I drew out the schematic and it appeared once you cut allt he required traces, only 1 resistor was being used. Fine I suppose unless you turn off the directional lighting in the decoder and try to turn both lights on at the same time. If I connect the wires myself then I know what goes where and that there's nothign in between that could affect operation. Well worth the effort. Since I generally use decoders with JST plugs, it's a simple matter to make the loco into a pure DC model afterwards, as well.
Lee, I have theoretical question for you, which you don't have to answer until you rewire the 2-6-6-2 - What would you rather have? A $256 loco that you have to ajust/rework a little or a $500 loco that is perfect?
This is actually a trick question since the $500 ones are often not perfect either.
ATLANTIC CENTRALAnd, I suspect when Lee rewires his 2-6-6-2 with the decoder hardwired, it will exceed his expectations in preformance. And if he bought it at the right store, it was only $300 or maybe a little less.
I bought my "H5" at Micro- Mark For I believe $256 and yes mine must be the H5 because of the tender is not the Vanderbilt. I wanted the small articulated because I have 20" to 24" radius curves with one reverse loop that has 18" R. I can see how addictive this hobby can be because I started with a 4' X 12' and after adding to it four times its now 5' X 27'. Oh well it keeps me out of the bars and off the streets.
Good day
One other important note to all following this, in case you did not pick up on this fact earlier, the new H4 has a different circuit board from the previous H5 like Lee has.
This new circuit board in the H5 is like nothing I have seen in a Bachmann loco before and looks similar to those in BLI products. I have not yet traced it out other than to find and remove the RF capacitor. Only one of my four locos is an H4, the other three are DC versions of what Lee has.
So, it could be Bachmann has fixed this problem on the H4. I am waiting for some performance reports from several friends who have purchased the sound version of the H4.
Like my three H5's, my H4 runs very well on the Train Engineer now that the decoder and RF capacitor are gone.
UP 4-12-2 One of the posts above expressed the possibility of not buying another articulated due to these problems. I respectfully suggest trying the BLI factory refurbished Y-6B before you give up on buying any other articulateds. I have not been a BLI fan, was not happy with some BLI engines I had owned in the past--yet the Paragon2 Y-6B is way different, actually a fantastic engine for the $329.99 price off their website, factory refurbished (mine looks as good as brand new without a mark on it anywhere). I read this thread with interest, as I had contemplated buying one of the H-4's, but this and other threads I've seen remind me that for all the improvements and nice detailing, the Spectrum engines are still a Bachmann--still subject to variations in equipment, cicuitry, etc.--still subject to problems. Since I generally prefer western roads and/or larger articulateds, I probably will avoid any Bachmann 2-6-6-2's. (My local train store still has a brand new NKP one--but it is clear it has problems including visibly mis-aligned valve guides, etc.) For those who hate smoke, BLI has provided a nice on-off switch, under the engine near the cab, that can even be reached by tipping the engine a little bit while it's on the track. In my opinion, for articulated motive power, the MTH 4-6-6-4 and the BLI Paragon2 Y-6B are both big winners. I have an Athearn Big Boy coming soon; it will certainly provide an interesting comparison. John
One of the posts above expressed the possibility of not buying another articulated due to these problems.
I respectfully suggest trying the BLI factory refurbished Y-6B before you give up on buying any other articulateds.
I have not been a BLI fan, was not happy with some BLI engines I had owned in the past--yet the Paragon2 Y-6B is way different, actually a fantastic engine for the $329.99 price off their website, factory refurbished (mine looks as good as brand new without a mark on it anywhere).
I read this thread with interest, as I had contemplated buying one of the H-4's, but this and other threads I've seen remind me that for all the improvements and nice detailing, the Spectrum engines are still a Bachmann--still subject to variations in equipment, cicuitry, etc.--still subject to problems. Since I generally prefer western roads and/or larger articulateds, I probably will avoid any Bachmann 2-6-6-2's. (My local train store still has a brand new NKP one--but it is clear it has problems including visibly mis-aligned valve guides, etc.)
For those who hate smoke, BLI has provided a nice on-off switch, under the engine near the cab, that can even be reached by tipping the engine a little bit while it's on the track.
In my opinion, for articulated motive power, the MTH 4-6-6-4 and the BLI Paragon2 Y-6B are both big winners. I have an Athearn Big Boy coming soon; it will certainly provide an interesting comparison.
John
John, I don't know what Lee's interestes are in terms of prototypes. I will agree that the BLI/PCM Y6b is a great loco regardless of which version you have, early or current Paragon.
FOR ME, I would have no interest in having a Y6b and a Big Boy on the same layout. I model a single place and time in history, even if it is "fictional" (we now prefer protolanced).
Like you prefer west coast roads, I have no interest in them. I do avoid models that have SERIOUS quality failings, but to reach my modeling goals I will buy any product that fits my roster needs and that can be made to perform to my standards, (which I feel are pretty high) and is reasonably priced considering any changes it might require.
Bachmann fills that bill rather well for me, BLI/PCM not so much so.
I have two BLI/PCM Reading T1's, both needed "ajustments" to run well. I have a BLI/PCM ABBA set of F3's, needed to be rewired for my uses, I have two BLI USRA Heavy 2-8-2's, needed rewiring and BLI still has not provided parts to fix one, I have one BLI, first run N&W class A - this is the only BLI piece I have that was "perfect" out of the box, But I did replace its tender to eliminate the sound and change its look for my road.
So why pay those higher prices? Or get ripped off when they blow them out at 50% off six months after the release?
Bachmann locos, with or without sound, can be bought at the lowest market price the day they hit the shore.
I understand your goals are different, but I would submit to you that of the various types of modelers out there, just as many have goals/needs/interests similar to mine as have goals/needs/interests like yours.
As for MTH, his prices and control system rules them out for me - I'm not buying any $400-$500 dollar locos to then have to rewire them completely. On a $100 Bachmann loco, the mods are small and simple.
And, I suspect when Lee rewires his 2-6-6-2 with the decoder hardwired, it will exceed his expectations in preformance. And if he bought it at the right store, it was only $300 or maybe a little less.
My 4 Bachmann Spectrum 2-6-6-2's all run great on my Train Engineer throttles, and the only modifications where adding weight to the tenders and removing the famous RF capacitor. They pull well for their size, and averaged out between them they only cost me $168.00 each, and that included alternate replacement tenders for two of them. But of course they don't have sound or DCC.
Lee,
First off, you are most welcome, glad to help.
Second, I do understand your expectation that the loco should work from the manufacturer. I personally believe I have both different and in some ways higher expectations than any of these manufacturers can/will provide.
And, I have been at this hobby a long time, since 1967. So, as you have seen on here, I go my own way, make things work to my satisfaction, don't buy much of the high priced, expected to be perfect, kinds of products, and still build/modify a lot of stuff.
Hard wiring the decoder should be pretty easy. The Bachmann board is reasonbly well marked as to which wires are which going to the loco. If you need any help identifing anything, let me know.
ATLANTIC CENTRALFrom what I'm reading, it seems like I might be right about the Bachmann lighting board being the problem.
Hey Sheldon I never doubted you might have the answer. What I was looking for was someone that had actually done the mod. Now I just have to work up the courage to start cutting.I appreciate all that took the time to post and tried to help.
Have a good day
OK, here is some "general" information about the Bachmann lighting boards.
From loco type to loco type, few if any are exactly the same, but all are similar.
All the new locos have LED headlights and the lighting board contains directional diodes, resistors, and capacitors for the lighting. The capacitors in the lighting portion of the circuit are to buffer or smooth out the voltage to the LED's. These do not interfere with DC, even the Train Engineer or other pulse width throttles because the diodes buffer them from the motor circuit.
The board also contains an Radio Frequency filter to reduce radio and TV interference. This circuit consists of two choke coils and a capacitor in the motor circuit. It is tuned (like a speaker system crossover) to trap a given range of frequencies. This is the capacitor that many of us remove for DC or DCC operation. The choke coils (inductors) are of a value that likely has no effect once the tuning of the circuit is broken by the removal of the capacitor - at least as it applies to the pulse width motor control signals.
BUT, in may well be that these choke coils are interfering with the BEMF signal back to the decoder on DCC applications. Or, the lighting circuit, which is really designed for DC, may have a resonance issue that is interfering with the decoder or BEMF.
So while I do fine just modifying the Bachmann boards for use with the DC Train Engineer, those with DCC may be better served by removing the lighting board and hard wiring the decoder directly and simply installing the correct resistor in the LED leads. This would eliminate any resonant type circuits that could interfere with the BEMF or the decoder outputs.