Before I figured out you can't even run a non-DCC loco on the NCE, I put the loco on the track, heard a wherring sound, didn't move, kept it on there about 2 minutes. Well I think I killed my Athearn SD45. It doesn't even run on DC now, it's completely dead. It actually moved a little bit, then finally died.
What do I do now? And why wasn't there a big "WARNING DO NOT RUN YOUR NON-DCC loco with this system" in the manual?
Now what? I guess I can have Caboose hobbies take a look at it, see what got fried.
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
You most likely fried the motor. You tried to operate a DC motor on AC, just like hooking a Lionel transformer to your track. Next time you turn on ANY piece of electrical equipment and it makes a funny noise, do yourself a favor and turn it off right away and investigate to save yourself a headache. I had a guy come into the store who fried 4 HO locomotives by trying to run them with a Lionel ZW. One at a time he put each one on the track and watched it fry. I would have stopped after the first one when the thing started smoking. He then came into the store saying his locomotives AND TRACKS "must have gone bad while in storage, since they worked when he put them away".
Too bad Caboose hobbies did not have that 2nd DT402 in stock.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
NCE does not support running a non decoder equipped locomotive. That is one of the questions that needs to be asked before purchasing a system. I still can't figure out why someone would buy a $500 to $600 dollar system and not a $16 decoder. I put decoders in all my locos before I bought my system and ran on DC until all the non decodered locos were converted.
In the beginning of the manual NCE wants you to set up a test track before hooking the system to your layout to get a feel of the system. Step #5 of the quick start guide. Place a DCC equipped locomotive on the test track. Select loco #3 and on and on.
If we had warnings for every possible thing that could go wrong then we would not be able to muddle through life.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
locoi1saI still can't figure out why someone would buy a $500 to $600 dollar system and not a $16 decoder.
I guess I'll chalk this up as one of my newbie lessons! Expensive lesson, $100 loco. I'm starting from scratch here, I bought the loco for testing purposes with a small DC power supply, it was cheaper than buying everything DCC right off the bat.
I was in the store yesterday, and I saw the new Athearn D&RGW SD50s, so I'm gonna get that next week and have them install a Tsunami for me.
The Digitrax system you exchanged for the NCE does support running DC loco's on DCC. You just can't leave the loco's on a powered track when not running them. It is nice to be able to do that when you can't afford to put in a decoder, have too many loco's to convert them all at once, or it is too difficult for you to do it yourself. I have my empire builder system for four years and still run analog loco's on it. You could still return the NCE and wait for the Digitrax to come in. I did have a problem once when I left a loco on a powered track. The motor heated up and siezed the motor so it wouldn't move. When it cooled down it ran ok thereafter.
Just hooked up my new Digitrax system to my existing DC layout. I have tested and it works well and passes the quarter test for shorts. I have one DCC sound locomotive and will be converting most of my other locomotives to DCC over the coming months. The DC locomotives work well, but they do "sing" loudly when not running. I use the old DC block switches to turn off power to the DC locomotives whenever they are not running. I can park the DCC locomotive(s) in the engine house the same way.
So, I'm able to run the DC locomotives (one at a time) and things are going well so far with the Digitrax technology.
Marty
www.oakhurstrailroad.com
"Oakhurst Railroad" on Facebook
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
I was in on the original NMRA DCC development. Back then, the cheapest decoder you could find cost $75, so the NMRA decided to include the ability to run a non-decoder equipped locomotive on address Zero by stretching the command signal bit to allow a motor to run on the positive or negative pulse of the DCC signal.
I foresaw problems and potential damage to some motors by allowing this to be part of the NMRA DCC Standards and Recommended Practices, but it was incorporated. I still don't think it should have ever been allowed.
In my opinion, NCE's choice to not incorporate this "feature" was a very wise decision. You should either run DCC or stick with DC, but don't try to mix them or you're letting yourself in for overheated motors and other problems, such as the runaway trains that users sometimes mention on these forums.
With decoders costing only $12 each in lots of 10 from NCE, there's really no reason to try running a DC motor on DCC through gimmickry.
Funny how people who own the systems that can't run a DC loco all think it's the most horrible thing ever and will instantly fry your loco, while those who have systems that can tend to not have any problems with it.
Just remember, NCE DID include the capability at first, you just had to DIY it a little. Of course that gave them the opening to completely eliminate the feature in later revisions - hardly anyone was using it.
I'll reiterate - I've never even come close to damaging a loco runnign it on address 00. In fact, the harsh pulses were exactly what was required to break loose a stubborn Bowser PRR T1 with dual motors. Best I could ever do with it on straight DC was full throttle running, and then barely. After I ran it for a while on address 00 on my Zephyr it was able to run nice and slow as well.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
if it is a new locomotive, it probably has some sort of circuit board for the factory lighting. if its an athearn RTR it has this board. It is quite possible just the board got fried. If so this may mean that you locomotive may still be able to run
I have installed decoders in over 300 locomotives and the worst I have seen a DCC system do to a locomotive was it melted the truck of a F3 because the breaker in the booster didn't trip and it was sending 5 amps of current thru the pickups of the truck. I have seen fried decoders, fried circuit boards, burnt out bulbs, cooked LED's but I have never seen a motor get fried. I don't think the motor is the problem with your locomotive, but then again without seeing the insides of the loco, I can't know for sure.
The people at caboose are very knowledgeable and should be able to whether or not it is salvageable.
Also about warnings, This is the first time I have heard that a DCC system doesn't support the use of a DC on throttle 00. My father and I were early DCC adopters; we started with Railcommand (not DCC), then switched to Lenz '94(club layout), and in '96 purchased our own Digitrax Super Chief system which I have used to this very day (14 years of service so far). Every system (except Railcommand which isn't DCC) I have used has been able to run a locomotive on throttle 00. There should be some sore of warning stating that NCE made that change and no longer supports, what I consider to be, an industry "standard" feature.
Again this is what I have experienced with DCC. I have not seen everything and never will, but hopefully this will give some insight into the problem with your loco and/or system and/or warnings in the manual about said system.
Colorado Front Range Railroad: http://www.coloradofrontrangerr.com/
OK I took it apart and inspected the DCC circuit board and it looked fine, couldn't find anything that was fried. Also inspected the motor, but I don't know what to look for. Here's a couple of pics I just took.
Also, while were talking about this, I'm buying a new Athearn RTR SD50, and I'm about to install a decoder and speaker, and I can't figure out where to install the oval speaker, in the cab maybe? But it looks like it might rub against the trucks. And there is a big metal weight right under the fan grills, I don't think there is enough room. Unless if I remove that weight?
Thanks for the help!
pajrrOne at a time he put each one on the track and watched it fry. I would have stopped after the first one when the thing started smoking. He then came into the store saying his locomotives AND TRACKS "must have gone bad while in storage, since they worked when he put them away".
Oh yeah, that happens all the time-- you know, when the cat's away...
rrinker Funny how people who own the systems that can't run a DC loco all think it's the most horrible thing ever and will instantly fry your loco, while those who have systems that can tend to not have any problems with it. Just remember, NCE DID include the capability at first, you just had to DIY it a little. Of course that gave them the opening to completely eliminate the feature in later revisions - hardly anyone was using it. I'll reiterate - I've never even come close to damaging a loco runnign it on address 00. In fact, the harsh pulses were exactly what was required to break loose a stubborn Bowser PRR T1 with dual motors. Best I could ever do with it on straight DC was full throttle running, and then barely. After I ran it for a while on address 00 on my Zephyr it was able to run nice and slow as well. --Randy
Hi Randy-
Can you elucidate a bit? I have an older NCE Powerhouse Pro vintage 1998-ish, just after they changed their name from System-One or Wangra or whatever it used to be. I've updated the firmware to the most recent (as of last summer-2009) so supposedly it is completely up-to-date except for the throttle which has the older keypad design. They tell me that's not an issue except for accessing the higher-numbered functions (and a couple other minor things) and I can get a new one at anytime for $120-ish bucks that will work fine.
In any case, is there a way to run DC locos with it? I've tried using address 0 without any success. Though I admit I have not thoroughly researched the issue...
John
MotleyOK I took it apart and inspected the DCC circuit board and it looked fine, couldn't find anything that was fried. Also inspected the motor, but I don't know what to look for. Here's a couple of pics I just took.
Well THERE'S your problem! Its that out-of-focus blob right there on the right...
(Sorry, just couldn't resist! )
Dr. John
"Prodigious Prognosticator and Remote Diagnostician of all things Blurry"
jwhitten Well THERE'S your problem! Its that out-of-focus blob right there on the right... (Sorry, just couldn't resist! ) Dr. John "Prodigious Prognosticator and Remote Diagnostician of all things Blurry"
LMAO i know, it's clear as day, *** blob!! Cell phone pics = FTL
Think I would have waited for a replacement system, before doing all this mixing and matching of system parts. Decoders are one thing. Kind of like buying a Chevy and adding Ford replacement parts on it.
How does Posi-track work? It just does!!
KnowcentsHow does Posi-track work? It just does!!
I see you need to watch "My Cousin Vinny"...
Looking at the decoder isn't necessarily going to make damage obvious. Sometimes things get hot enough to leave a mark. But many types of damage are invisible.
However, the fact that you can read back from it indicates that it can do something to draw current, which would seem to say to me that the drivers to the motor may not be blown.
An experiment that might be interesting... try running it (with the decoder) on a DC track. If analog operation was enabled in the decoder (usually it is by default), it would be interesting if there was movement.
jwhitten Hi Randy- Can you elucidate a bit? I have an older NCE Powerhouse Pro vintage 1998-ish, just after they changed their name from System-One or Wangra or whatever it used to be. I've updated the firmware to the most recent (as of last summer-2009) so supposedly it is completely up-to-date except for the throttle which has the older keypad design. They tell me that's not an issue except for accessing the higher-numbered functions (and a couple other minor things) and I can get a new one at anytime for $120-ish bucks that will work fine. In any case, is there a way to run DC locos with it? I've tried using address 0 without any success. Though I admit I have not thoroughly researched the issue... John
You had to make a special throttle that connected to certain pins of the serial port on the command station - you could never do it via the system throttles. The instructions used to be on the NCE web site, however I don't think they are anymore. Also, the newer firmware versions take away the ability to do it anyway, even if you built the hardware.
rrinkerYou had to make a special throttle that connected to certain pins of the serial port on the command station - you could never do it via the system throttles. The instructions used to be on the NCE web site, however I don't think they are anymore. Also, the newer firmware versions take away the ability to do it anyway, even if you built the hardware.
Ah, that figures-- but it probably is a good thing too.
From what I've been reading here, trying to run a DC locomotive on a DCC system is problematical no matter which DCC system it is.
So, if the only reason anyone needs to run the DC engine is to see if it works okay before conversion, why not just buy a 3 foot length of flextrack and a second hand DC power supply?
maxmanFrom what I've been reading here, trying to run a DC locomotive on a DCC system is problematical no matter which DCC system it is.
maxmanSo, if the only reason anyone needs to run the DC engine is to see if it works okay before conversion, why not just buy a 3 foot length of flextrack and a second hand DC power supply?
Yes. When someone at the club runs 00 on the Lenz it makes my older Soundtrax decoders go funky. I did not know one time someone was running 00 and it fried one of my DSD LC280 decoder.
Put a cheap ammeter on it and some sort of coupler height gauge and you have yourself a very useful diagnostic and test stand. Before anything goes on the layout or modules it goes on the test stand. Couplers, wheels cleaned, lubed and it is dual powered with a DPDT switch between the Power Cab and an old MRC pack.
locoi1samaxmanFrom what I've been reading here, trying to run a DC locomotive on a DCC system is problematical no matter which DCC system it is. Yes. When someone at the club runs 00 on the Lenz it makes my older Soundtrax decoders go funky. I did not know one time someone was running 00 and it fried one of my DSD LC280 decoder.