In the 1980's I used a pre DCC system called Dynatrol which had decoders also. They wired in the same way, but I had a limited number of "channels" to use, so I would build consists using locos that had the same channel number, I had duplicate channel numbers and managed the fleet so I never had any unexpected surprises.
In 1999, as Dynatrol was dying, the founder, Abbott Lathi (sp) started manufacturing dual decoders that would support System One/NCE or Dynatrol. Seeing the future I started putting the new decoders in locos, then knowing I was going to switch to NCE, I put NCE decoders in all the rest. When I cut over in 2000, no wiring had to be replaced, I just replaced the Dynatrol with an NCE command station and four boosters. The engines with the dual decoders sensed the change to NCE and ran fine. I still have 4 or 5 diesels with those old decoders. The rest have all been upgraded, and all new power have NCE decoders. My diesel fleet is just over 300 engines.
I knew from the gitgo that I should not/would not run DC diesels on NCE, and since I had already changed over that was not a problem. The fleet number was considerably less in 2000 than today. I also was advised by NCE from the gitgo that I should not try to run DC locos on the system. I never did, I never burnt out a loco.
I run on many different layouts with many different DCC systems, and would still stay with NCE over the rest.
Bob
Stretched zero bit info. Plus how decoders really operate.
http://jdb.psu.edu/nmra/faq_19.html
http://members.shaw.ca/sask.rail/dcc/DCC-waveforms/DCC_waveforms.html
http://www.loystoys.com/info/how-dcc-works.html
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
StevertBut I didn't know that the LC's were sensitive to zero-stretching. I guess then that I'm not surprised Soundtraxx called those decoders "Low Cost", if they're designed so cheaply they can't even deal with it. They do sound good, though, at least the one I have does.
Sensitive is not the word I would use. The LC280 decoder that fried acted strange before it failed. The loco was pulling a small train when it just stopped and started vibrating and the drivers were going from forward to reverse in only an inch of track. I did not know someone was running 00 at the time. I figured it was a dead spot or dirty wheels that made the train stop and did not see the drivers going nuts. I pushed on the caboose to see if it would go again. No go so I went to the loco to see what was up and saw the drivers going nuts. Just before I picked it off the rails it stopped and was fine for about 10 feet. Then it started freaking out again. I picked it from the rails and I smelt a burning plastic smell. The loco was a Spectrum 4-8-2 that previously had a TCS non sound decoder. I clipped the caps from the Spectrum board when the TCS decoder was in it. I changed out the LC280 decoder with a non sound decoder and the loco runs just as good as it did before. I gave the LC280 decoder to an electronics engineer (my x brother in law) to see if he could fix it for me. That was 3 years ago.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
StevertYou're really only increasing the duration of either the negative or positive sides of the zero bits. In other words, all you're altering is the timing. There isn't really any higher voltage, or DC voltage being superimposed on the DCC signal.
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
I experimented with a LC decoder up to 12 volts DC and there was no damage. Someone in another forums asked the same question. No, the decoder does not respond to DC. I did not try any higher than 12 volts DC.
The LC decoder like all decoders picks off the DCC signal just before the bridge rectifier and sends it to the microprocessor IC but the IC does not have any code to recognize this. Dual mode decoder have code to handle the DC voltage and recognize that there are no DCC pulses present.
rrinker When you use address 00 to run an analog loco you are essentially putting a DC component in the DCC signal, so I would expect an LC decoder to not like it. Those are some of the only decoders that had that issue. --Randy
When you use address 00 to run an analog loco you are essentially putting a DC component in the DCC signal, so I would expect an LC decoder to not like it. Those are some of the only decoders that had that issue.
--Randy
You're really only increasing the duration of either the negative or positive sides of the zero bits. In other words, all you're altering is the timing. There isn't really any higher voltage, or DC voltage being superimposed on the DCC signal.
But I didn't know that the LC's were sensitive to zero-stretching. I guess then that I'm not surprised Soundtraxx called those decoders "Low Cost", if they're designed so cheaply they can't even deal with it. They do sound good, though, at least the one I have does.
(Note to self: Add this to the list of reasons to NOT use zero-stretching on your Super Chief...)
Steve
rrinkerThe old Soundtraxx LC decoders did not support running on DC in any form. Worse than not supporting it, they were damaged by DC.
I just switched from DC to a DCC Digitrax Super Chief 5 amp. I sill have 7 DC locomotives of various types and have been running them with no problem ... except last night ...
I was running my old Rivarossi Heisler, which is a poor runner in DC that sometimes just won't run at all. It was doing great on DCC (address 00 ). Both lights (front and back) we on constantly. Then all of a sudden, when the loco was stopped (and singing), a smoke plume came up from the cab. I could see a bright glow from inside, to match the brightness of the light. Apparently I was running too much current through the light wires. I turned it off and on (using the old block switches still installed) and each time the smoke plume reappeared. I decided it was best to permanently retire it from use.
Other than that, the old DC locomotives (Roundhouse Shays and Climax & Bachmann Shays) work well. I can use the old block switches to turn off the power as the "singing" can get annoying if they are just parked.
The Digitrax AR1 reverser on the Wye works perfectly for my DCC locomotive, and sometimes works for the DC locomotives. Can't really get it adjusted to work for the Bachmann DC Shays and sometimes I have to trip it twice to get it to work for the other DC locos. Still I have reasonable DC loco layout function while I work to get most of them converted to DCC over the next few months.
Marty
www.oakhurstrailroad.com
"Oakhurst Railroad" on Facebook
The old Soundtraxx LC decoders did not support running on DC in any form. Worse than not supporting it, they were damaged by DC. When you use address 00 to run an analog loco you are essentially putting a DC component in the DCC signal, so I would expect an LC decoder to not like it. Those are some of the only decoders that had that issue.
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
locoi1samaxmanFrom what I've been reading here, trying to run a DC locomotive on a DCC system is problematical no matter which DCC system it is.   Yes. When someone at the club runs 00 on the Lenz it makes my older Soundtrax decoders go funky. I did not know one time someone was running 00 and it fried one of my DSD LC280 decoder.
maxmanFrom what I've been reading here, trying to run a DC locomotive on a DCC system is problematical no matter which DCC system it is.
  Yes. When someone at the club runs 00 on the Lenz it makes my older Soundtrax decoders go funky. I did not know one time someone was running 00 and it fried one of my DSD LC280 decoder.
Yes. When someone at the club runs 00 on the Lenz it makes my older Soundtrax decoders go funky. I did not know one time someone was running 00 and it fried one of my DSD LC280 decoder.
maxmanSo, if the only reason anyone needs to run the DC engine is to see if it works okay before conversion, why not just buy a 3 foot length of flextrack and a second hand DC power supply?
Put a cheap ammeter on it and some sort of coupler height gauge and you have yourself a very useful diagnostic and test stand. Before anything goes on the layout or modules it goes on the test stand. Couplers, wheels cleaned, lubed and it is dual powered with a DPDT switch between the Power Cab and an old MRC pack.
maxmanSo, if the only reason anyone needs to run the DC engine is to see if it works okay before conversion, why not just buy a 3 foot length of flextrack and a second hand DC power supply?Â
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
From what I've been reading here, trying to run a DC locomotive on a DCC system is problematical no matter which DCC system it is.
So, if the only reason anyone needs to run the DC engine is to see if it works okay before conversion, why not just buy a 3 foot length of flextrack and a second hand DC power supply?
rrinkerYou had to make a special throttle that connected to certain pins of the serial port on the command station - you could never do it via the system throttles. The instructions used to be on the NCE web site, however I don't think they are anymore. Also, the newer firmware versions take away the ability to do it anyway, even if you built the hardware.
Ah, that figures-- but it probably is a good thing too.
John
jwhitten Hi Randy- Can you elucidate a bit? I have an older NCE Powerhouse Pro vintage 1998-ish, just after they changed their name from System-One or Wangra or whatever it used to be. I've updated the firmware to the most recent (as of last summer-2009) so supposedly it is completely up-to-date except for the throttle which has the older keypad design. They tell me that's not an issue except for accessing the higher-numbered functions (and a couple other minor things) and I can get a new one at anytime for $120-ish bucks that will work fine. In any case, is there a way to run DC locos with it? I've tried using address 0 without any success. Though I admit I have not thoroughly researched the issue... John
Hi Randy-
Can you elucidate a bit? I have an older NCE Powerhouse Pro vintage 1998-ish, just after they changed their name from System-One or Wangra or whatever it used to be. I've updated the firmware to the most recent (as of last summer-2009) so supposedly it is completely up-to-date except for the throttle which has the older keypad design. They tell me that's not an issue except for accessing the higher-numbered functions (and a couple other minor things) and I can get a new one at anytime for $120-ish bucks that will work fine.
In any case, is there a way to run DC locos with it? I've tried using address 0 without any success. Though I admit I have not thoroughly researched the issue...
You had to make a special throttle that connected to certain pins of the serial port on the command station - you could never do it via the system throttles. The instructions used to be on the NCE web site, however I don't think they are anymore. Also, the newer firmware versions take away the ability to do it anyway, even if you built the hardware.
Looking at the decoder isn't necessarily going to make damage obvious. Sometimes things get hot enough to leave a mark. But many types of damage are invisible.
However, the fact that you can read back from it indicates that it can do something to draw current, which would seem to say to me that the drivers to the motor may not be blown.
An experiment that might be interesting... try running it (with the decoder) on a DC track. If analog operation was enabled in the decoder (usually it is by default), it would be interesting if there was movement.
KnowcentsHow does Posi-track work? It just does!!
I see you need to watch "My Cousin Vinny"...
Think I would have waited for a replacement system, before doing all this mixing and matching of system parts. Decoders are one thing. Kind of like buying a Chevy and adding Ford replacement parts on it.
How does Posi-track work? It just does!!
jwhitten Well THERE'S your problem! Its that out-of-focus blob right there on the right... (Sorry, just couldn't resist! ) Dr. John "Prodigious Prognosticator and Remote Diagnostician of all things Blurry"
Well THERE'S your problem! Its that out-of-focus blob right there on the right...
(Sorry, just couldn't resist! )
Dr. John
"Prodigious Prognosticator and Remote Diagnostician of all things Blurry"
LMAO i know, it's clear as day, *** blob!! Cell phone pics = FTL
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
MotleyOK I took it apart and inspected the DCC circuit board and it looked fine, couldn't find anything that was fried. Also inspected the motor, but I don't know what to look for. Here's a couple of pics I just took.
OK I took it apart and inspected the DCC circuit board and it looked fine, couldn't find anything that was fried. Also inspected the motor, but I don't know what to look for. Here's a couple of pics I just took.
rrinker Funny how people who own the systems that can't run a DC loco all think it's the most horrible thing ever and will instantly fry your loco, while those who have systems that can tend to not have any problems with it. Just remember, NCE DID include the capability at first, you just had to DIY it a little. Of course that gave them the opening to completely eliminate the feature in later revisions - hardly anyone was using it. I'll reiterate - I've never even come close to damaging a loco runnign it on address 00. In fact, the harsh pulses were exactly what was required to break loose a stubborn Bowser PRR T1 with dual motors. Best I could ever do with it on straight DC was full throttle running, and then barely. After I ran it for a while on address 00 on my Zephyr it was able to run nice and slow as well. --Randy
Funny how people who own the systems that can't run a DC loco all think it's the most horrible thing ever and will instantly fry your loco, while those who have systems that can tend to not have any problems with it.
Just remember, NCE DID include the capability at first, you just had to DIY it a little. Of course that gave them the opening to completely eliminate the feature in later revisions - hardly anyone was using it.
I'll reiterate - I've never even come close to damaging a loco runnign it on address 00. In fact, the harsh pulses were exactly what was required to break loose a stubborn Bowser PRR T1 with dual motors. Best I could ever do with it on straight DC was full throttle running, and then barely. After I ran it for a while on address 00 on my Zephyr it was able to run nice and slow as well.
pajrrOne at a time he put each one on the track and watched it fry. I would have stopped after the first one when the thing started smoking. He then came into the store saying his locomotives AND TRACKS "must have gone bad while in storage, since they worked when he put them away".
Oh yeah, that happens all the time-- you know, when the cat's away...
Also, while were talking about this, I'm buying a new Athearn RTR SD50, and I'm about to install a decoder and speaker, and I can't figure out where to install the oval speaker, in the cab maybe? But it looks like it might rub against the trucks. And there is a big metal weight right under the fan grills, I don't think there is enough room. Unless if I remove that weight?
Thanks for the help!
if it is a new locomotive, it probably has some sort of circuit board for the factory lighting. if its an athearn RTR it has this board. It is quite possible just the board got fried. If so this may mean that you locomotive may still be able to run
I have installed decoders in over 300 locomotives and the worst I have seen a DCC system do to a locomotive was it melted the truck of a F3 because the breaker in the booster didn't trip and it was sending 5 amps of current thru the pickups of the truck. I have seen fried decoders, fried circuit boards, burnt out bulbs, cooked LED's but I have never seen a motor get fried. I don't think the motor is the problem with your locomotive, but then again without seeing the insides of the loco, I can't know for sure.
The people at caboose are very knowledgeable and should be able to whether or not it is salvageable.
Also about warnings, This is the first time I have heard that a DCC system doesn't support the use of a DC on throttle 00. My father and I were early DCC adopters; we started with Railcommand (not DCC), then switched to Lenz '94(club layout), and in '96 purchased our own Digitrax Super Chief system which I have used to this very day (14 years of service so far). Every system (except Railcommand which isn't DCC) I have used has been able to run a locomotive on throttle 00. There should be some sore of warning stating that NCE made that change and no longer supports, what I consider to be, an industry "standard" feature.
Again this is what I have experienced with DCC. I have not seen everything and never will, but hopefully this will give some insight into the problem with your loco and/or system and/or warnings in the manual about said system.
Colorado Front Range Railroad: http://www.coloradofrontrangerr.com/