I have the Vandy tender version lettered for my RR
It has DCC-Sound and has only been run about 30 minutes
I run it DC ( am going to upgrade to a DCC entry level Digitraxx eventually )
With full throttle DC and 12-- 55 ton coal hoppers and caboose all weighted to standard it will hit 40-42 MPH on level track
51% share holder in the ME&O ( Wife owns the other 49% )
ME&O
Well I took my H5 and ran it on DC, it runs better, faster and the sound is more in sync with the speed. Look like I'll be changing the decoder and see what happens.
Hey Guys
Having beat that horse to death I'll go one step farther and give it a few more whacks.For what its worth, I know the drive train has a lot more slop in it than my other locos, 4-8-2 mountain, 2-8-0 con. and others. I like to hear the engine lug when climbing grades so my BEMF is now turned on low and it will surge at very low speeds going down grade. If It had a constant voltage applied to it, as in DC I don't believe it would surge. The speed is close to 35-smph I will live with that. If those interested noticed I did remove the light board an cut the capacitor, but the Bachmann, version decoder does have it's limitation IMHO.
Now let's haul that freight.
Lee
So it did! .........edited out that extra set of drivers.
Your You Tube video lists it as a 2-6-6-6-2. I think you have an extra 6 in there
Springfield PA
CB&Q Modeler One thing we've seemed to have forgotten is the H4 with its 56" drivers was in fact a drag freight engine with a top speed of about 35mph. Even in MRs review of this engine this was addressed, their saying when running on DC top speed was about 50mph and with DCC 35mph.Here is my H4 working up a 11/2% grade with 27 hopper cars at what i feel is a prototypical speed. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeGCwPrlt2I
One thing we've seemed to have forgotten is the H4 with its 56" drivers was in fact a drag freight engine with a top speed of about 35mph.
Even in MRs review of this engine this was addressed, their saying when running on DC top speed was about 50mph and with DCC 35mph.Here is my H4 working up a 11/2% grade with 27 hopper cars at what i feel is a prototypical speed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeGCwPrlt2I
Nobody is disagreeing about the fact that 35 smph is a reasonable realistic speed. However, there is nothing about installing a decoder in a loco that should effect its top speed in this way - AND - Lee orginally reported that his loco would not even go 35 smph.
The other, more important issue is the surging on grades, a problem only experianced by those running H5 sound equiped versions of the loco on DCC with factory decoders. The new H4's have a completely different lighting board and possibly a different sound board/decoder.
I still content there is a compatiblity issue in the H5 sound versions where the motor control aspects of the decoder are simply not compatible with the motor and driveline of this loco.
I repeat, I have both H4 and H5 versions without sound, and have removed the decoders as I run DC. On my 13.5 volts all 4 locos run about 48 smph and have no surging issues.
Sheldon
Sheldon thanks for the feedback , I've read all the old post. I'm of next week and will work on bypassing the decoder and post back.
Thanks,
Mark
Mark565 Mark565: I have rulled out that the issue is the decoder. I swapped the tenders between my 4-8-2 and 2-6-6-2 and the performance of the loco did not change. Sorry, I should have clarified it better, my Spectrum 4-8-2 run great and has a very good top speed. That is why when I switched tenders and each locomotives performance did not change I think it is a drive train issue and not a decoder issue. Mark
Mark565: I have rulled out that the issue is the decoder. I swapped the tenders between my 4-8-2 and 2-6-6-2 and the performance of the loco did not change.
I have rulled out that the issue is the decoder. I swapped the tenders between my 4-8-2 and 2-6-6-2 and the performance of the loco did not change.
Sorry, I should have clarified it better, my Spectrum 4-8-2 run great and has a very good top speed. That is why when I switched tenders and each locomotives performance did not change I think it is a drive train issue and not a decoder issue.
Mark, it may be a drive train issue from the stand point that the 2-6-6-2 is articulated with a gear drive and the 4-8-2 is a belt drive. BUT, that does not mean that the 2-6-6-2 drive is defective or flawed - it may only mean that the ablities of the decoder and the nature of the drive are not compatible, which is what I have been saying about this for a year now.
I would politely suggest someone who is having this problem use their jumper plugs to completely disable the decoder, run the loco on DC and evaluate the performance of the drive under the same load conditions but on DC. Lee was unable or unwilling to do this.
There must be some explaination as to why the locos do not have this problem on DC.
I know that the idea that the "DCC" element here could be at fault is hard for some of you to accept, but like any new technolgy, it is not always perfect.
I went to great lengths to help Lee with this, review my earlier posts. Again, all four of mine run fine on DC, using Aristo Train Engineer throttles, which provide pluse width modulated motor control just like a DCC decoder, BUT with no BEMF or other automatic or ajustable features.
My top speeds are much higher than Lee reported and I only put 13.5 volts on the track. My locos pull and push 20 or so cars up/down a 2% grade with no surging? WHY?
Mark565 I have rulled out that the issue is the decoder. I swapped the tenders between my 4-8-2 and 2-6-6-2 and the performance of the loco did not change.
yankee flyer At one time or another I feel I've changed every CV there is. I have stored the CV,s on Decoder Pro So that I don't have to go back and redo the whole thing. Have a good one. Lee
At one time or another I feel I've changed every CV there is. I have stored the CV,s on Decoder Pro So that I don't have to go back and redo the whole thing.
Have a good one.
Sorry you are having so many problems. I'll just throw one more out there. When you do a general reset (CV8 = 8) You next have to remove power from the tsunami for the reset to work. I get 50 smph out of mine no problem. (And I had 4)
Asking Bachmann for a replacement after 1 failed fix shouldn't be an issue for them. They are usually very good about that.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
Mark565 I'm also having the same issues with a 2-6-6-2 DCC Bachmann sound loco. 1) How do I change to 128 step speed control? 2) What CV's control Vmin & Vmax ? Thanks, Mark
I'm also having the same issues with a 2-6-6-2 DCC Bachmann sound loco.
1) How do I change to 128 step speed control?
2) What CV's control Vmin & Vmax ?
Typically CV 29 bit 1 (value 2) will determine if you are using 128/28 speed step or 14. But Tsunami manual doesn't document it that well.
CV2 = start voltage
There is no max voltage. You will have to use a custom speed table and recalculate all the CV's for that speed table...That means programming all 28 of them.
By default is comes from 128 speed step from the factory. Changing it to 28 on your cab or on the decoder will make no difference. It will just make your speed adjustments more coarse. In matter of fact you can have your decoder set to 128 and your cab set to 28, and it will still max out in speed. 28/28 on your cab will equal 127/127 on your decoder. (It's complex to explain why.)
Mark,
As I advised Lee originally in this thread, my 4 DC versions, all decoders removed, jumpers installed, do not have these performance problems. They do not surge, buck, and have normal top speeds.
And, to the issue of top speed, be reminded I only use 13.8 volt power supplies with my Aristo Train Engineer throttles which then actually only put about 13.5 volts on the track.
So, I still think this is an issue with the Bachmann decoder and the use of another brand of decoder could easily be the cure.
All of the bachmann factory decoders are the same, so using the 4-8-2 tender did not change anything. I still suspect the basic design values of the decoder are not correct for this loco.
Again, I have three H5's and an H4, no sound, no decoders, no probelms.
Lee,
By chance do you guys have back-emf turned on. When I did this with my 2-8-4 P2K Berk it cut it's max speed in half. Turning it off solved the problem. I then did a reset and performed very conservative adjustments on the BEMF CV's and restored most of my speed. Turns out I had too much active correction.
Even after a lot of work I improved the loco some but not very much. If you read back through the post you will see the things I tried. Also note the post was last active a year ago.
Good luck.
GraffenThis is an example of the "new" movement Steampunk! They like new things as long as they look and feel old .
I guess I didn't get it because you have got me all wrong, it is just the oposite - I like old things that look, work and feel like they did when they were new. I restore old houses and make them look like they did the day the first owner moved in (and make them work like new as a side benifit). NOT some rustic, wornout, patched up, romantic notion of "old world charm" with beat up door jambs and painted over peeling paint.
I like high levels of craftsmanship from days gone by, I like to create the feeling of what it was like to be there in 1901, when my house was first built. That is what my house is like, like a perfectly restored 50 year old car - but it is a 109 year old house - just like being there when it was new. A little wear and tear is OK, but no more than you might find in a 10 year old house today.
My railroad is a similar time capsule - its 1954 here on the ATLANTIC CENTRAL.
GraffenBut all DCC equipped Locomotives problems can´t be solved by saying; -Its a DCC issue, better to use DC instead.
I never said or even implied that. Lee has been having problems with his 2-6-6-2 for quite some time, this is the second one after having the first one replaced by Bachmann. In this case, and this case alone, I suspected from the outset that it was a decoder problem, even with the one he sent back that was replaced. In the begining, Lee seemed convinced there was some fatial mechanical flaw in the locos design. All I have been tring to do is help him figure out if it was mechanical or electrical and help him see it might just be electrical and DCC related.
Being the owner of three DC versions of the same loco, and having done some work on them, and actually having had to return one to Bachmann for replacement, I have some experiance with this particular loco. I understand Lee's interest in DCC and sound and that is fine. I have been, for many months now, on a number of different posting by Lee, trying to help him. Again, all my knowledge of this loco, and DCC, tells me its a decoder problem.
Even though I don't personally use DCC on my layout, I operate on a number of DCC layouts every month in our local round robin group, some of which are layouts I helped design or helped build/wire.
I'm not "new" or inexperianced with DCC.
GraffenOkay, you have less "problems" running DC, but we that runs DCC can more often than not accept that we run into some snags, as the enjoyment factor of running a DCC/sound train is way higher than a standard DC-train in my opinion. I, for one, wouldn´t stay in Model RR´ing if there wasn´t technological advances to "play" with.
That's all fine, I listen to new people, or those considering DCC and based on their needs/wants I often recommend that DCC would be best for them. But again, not best for EVERYBODY ALL THE TIME.
You like sound, so do I - in G scale. In HO the sound quality is not acceptable to me. AND, I am building a large layout that will have many trains operating at once - too much noise all at once.
I will even concede that one HO loco, by its self, with sound, turned down to a low level, can make for a very nice effect. But not a whole room full of them with operators trying to talk to dispatchers and viewers holding conversations, etc,etc.
Your modeling goals are likely different - I understand. It is many of you who like sound who will not take the time or have an open mind to understand my view.
The few advantages that DCC would have to my particular layout and operational plan do not justify the cost or the effort for me. That is time and money I would rather put into my signal/CTC system and into more equipment, structures and scenery.
I have said before, if I was building a different type of layout with different modeling goals, I likely could choose DCC. But I have been working toward this layout goal for some time and have no interest in changing the goals mid stream - I have been at this 40 years, I know what I want/like and each new product on the market does not send me in a new direction.
ATLANTIC CENTRALGraffen Sheldon, this one is for you: Not sure I get it? Not sure I care. Sheldon
Graffen Sheldon, this one is for you:
Sheldon, this one is for you:
Not sure I get it? Not sure I care.
This is an example of the "new" movement Steampunk! They like new things as long as they look and feel old .
As I have seen in many of your replies, you have an all DC layout. Kudos for that!
But all DCC equipped Locomotives problems can´t be solved by saying; -Its a DCC issue, better to use DC instead.
Okay, you have less "problems" running DC, but we that runs DCC can more often than not accept that we run into some snags, as the enjoyment factor of running a DCC/sound train is way higher than a standard DC-train in my opinion. I, for one, wouldn´t stay in Model RR´ing if there wasn´t technological advances to "play" with.
I also fly RC model airplanes and the same type of arguments were heard when we started using 2.4 Ghz equipment; -The new stuff has issues and that the old and proven stuff is way better. (wich it is NOT).
Swedish Custom painter and model maker. My Website:
My Railroad
My Youtube:
Graff´s channel
yankee flyerI think the Tsunami is a pretty good decoder but there could be a problem with this one. The loco does run quite well, this one even runs down grade at notch one in a very smooth manner. I going to operate it for a while and see if the speed improves or something else shows up.
I do very much hope you figure it out because they really are very nice locos. Two of mine are lettered for my ATLANTIC CENTRAL and have Bachmann long Vanderbilt tenders, the third is C&O. I plan to get one of the new H4's in C&O, and maybe a couple for the ACR as well.
yankee flyerAs far as DCC, it is the only thing that brought me into the hobby. But thats good, there is something in the hobby for everyone. I enjoy the challenge of learning new things. Having my Avatar in the cab do my biding appealed to me.I value all view points.
DCC is a great control system and I recommend it to many, my point is only that one size does not fit all. Back before DCC I would have never suggested that every DC layout be wired with the same type of control scheme, now that we have DCC, that has not changed - different layout goals require different solutions.
I'm not new to tech, or even remotely shy about it. 30 years ago, with no formal training, I was programing some of the first Programable Logic Controllers being used in industry to replace relays and automate process machinery. It was fun and challenging - then.
Today I am a Residential Designer and Historic Restoration Consultant. I plan residential historic restorations, design houses, additions, kitchens, baths, hydronic heating systems and their controls, electrical installations, whole house automation, and more. But I'm not into tech for it's own sake. My house has X-10 home automation, but no programable thermostats, they don't suit our life style. I don't own an Ipod and my cell phone does not take pictures, but I designed and personally built the home theater speakers in my family room. I live in a 107 year old Queen Anne house that is mechanicaly and electricaly only 13 years old - it looks just like it did in 1901, but is as modern as any house functionaly. I restored and updated it myself.
I have been building model trains for 40 years, worked in hobby shops, known a mover and shaker or two in this hobby. I looked long and hard at DCC on two different occasions before begining the current layout and control system.
Because my layout is large but relatively simple, and I want signaling with CTC, and don't like onboard sound, it just did not add up for me. Too expensive, too much new learning curve, too many "still growing" aspects to the technology and my signal/CTC system would still reqiure all the same "stuff" with or without DCC.
Prices have come down a lot since I first considered it, but I still like not having to deal with programing locos or installing decoders in the 100+ locos I already have. The locos I need to double/triple head all run fine together without "consisting". The Aristo wireless throttles and my pushbutton cab assignment circuit gives me full walk around, and my signal/CTC system is intergrated right into the turnout and cab selection systems.
Until you have operated a well planned and designed DC layout (which many modelers today have never even seen), DCC seems like the solution to all the "problems" of DC control. And in many cases DCC is a great choice for many layouts. But well designed DC systems can and have, for decades, run model trains very well.
Again, good luck with the 2-6-6-2.
ATLANTIC CENTRALDispite opinions to the contrary, I suspect a better decoder would result in excelent performance. Still very happy to not have to install or program decoders or learn to use Decoder Pro. Sheldon
Dispite opinions to the contrary, I suspect a better decoder would result in excelent performance.
Still very happy to not have to install or program decoders or learn to use Decoder Pro.
I think the Tsunami is a pretty good decoder but there could be a problem with this one. The loco does run quite well, this one even runs down grade at notch one in a very smooth manner. I going to operate it for a while and see if the speed improves or something else shows up.As far as DCC, it is the only thing that brought me into the hobby. But thats good, there is something in the hobby for everyone. I enjoy the challenge of learning new things. Having my Avatar in the cab do my biding appealed to me.I value all view points.
Have fun
Today after reading your latest post, I went out to the train room (above my garage), and ran some speed tests with one of my three DC, non sound, Spectrum 2-6-6-2's.
Test conditions: Room temperature 50 degrees, loco has been in this room all winter, Throttle - Aristo Train Engineer with maximum of 13.5 volts available at the track from a filtered, regulated power supply, speed control set for pulse width modulation. Speed measured over a nine foot distance, timed with a stop watch.
Times compaired to a previously established speed chart. Math of speed chart double checked with actual numbers from this test.
After running the loco forward and reverse about six times, I than clocked it at full throttle through the nine foot measured course in both forward and reverse over six times - running free, level track, no load.
The average speed was 55 scale miles per hour at 13.5 volts DC.
Then I attached 40, identical, 4.3 oz Athearn piggyback flat cars, equiped with free rolling trucks. The loco easily pulled the the 40 cars and easily pushed them backwards, again all on level track (track tested to less than .25% grade in any direction at any point).
I then measured the speed in both directions at full throttle while pulling the 40 cars. The average speed of three runs in both directions with the 40 cars was 48 scale miles per hour, again at 13.5 volts DC.
I made no measurements of current draw, my power supply provides up to 3 amps.
The loco started and ran smooth through all speed ranges in both directions.
40 - 45 mph surely would have been a top speed for the prototype with day to day speeds more like 35, so the speed range of the loco on 13.5 volts DC is more than acceptable.
It seems clear to me that the problem, and all the problems you have had with this loco or previous copies, are decoder problems, not mechanical problems with the loco.
There is still somethign up with the way it is handling the speed table. After you reset it, did you try WITHOUT a speed table? Try that and see what speeds it runs. It's probably not far off prototypical speeds, but with barely any change from mid to top says the speed table is not workign correctly.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Hi Guys
Well I am reporting back on my Tsunami equipped 2-6-6-2. I ran speed tests with a stop watch and a level 4 feet on the track.I have a couple hours on the engine at least. The results I calculated with the on line calculater for scale speed. The tests were powered by my NCE Power Cab with nothing else on the track.Power step: Miles per hour scale:#10 18.25 mph#12 21.57#14 23.73#16 26.36#18 29.66#20 33.9#22 33.9#28 33.9Does all of this sound normal? I have reset decoder to factory default and started over. I checked all of my settings with Decoder Pro. Speed settings are 28 /128 with speed table linear and top speed CV at 255. If this is normal then I am kind of disappointed in the performace. My other steamers run great.Thank you all for your input.